Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[jamesev]

You seem to be quoting positive EV articles, neither of which say what you are quoting.

Quote from the Green Alliance report:


"Small scale technologies are disrupting the UK energy system, driven by
consumer preference and falling prices. The old system, dominated by passive
customers buying power from big and distant power stations, will change into
one where homeowners and businesses play an increasingly active role, by
installing small scale energy technologies. In this new system, centralised, large
scale technology will continue to be essential, but will have to operate alongside
distributed, small scale energy, helping to fill the gaps and provide the bulk
power the UK will undoubtedly need"

And what I've been saying:


No where in the report does it say need a completely new independent electricity network. Everything is done using existing infrastructure, we need a new way of approaching electricity generation and usage, driven by distributed small scale "smart" suppliers and users.

The Electric nation project is a research project:
"The project will show how effective demand management using smart chargers is an alternative to costly network reinforcement. It will provide network operators with the information required to obtain a demand control service in the future."
NOT about "dumbly" charging EV using existing timer based chargers, nor about EV's effect on local circuits.

It needs innovation. Look at heat recovery systems. If you have ever been on the tube in London there is so much heat generated down there that with a bit of though could be used to be channelled into effectively district heating systems. With the advent of the residential retail market - competition in the water industries, studies have shown that water run off from hardstanding surfaces in major cities could all be channelled to meet non-potable demand. The thoughts are out there it just needs some joined up thinking in the infrastructure industries. There are also prototypes of PV panels that are modelled directly into roofing tiles. If ALL new build houses were fitted with this tech along side heat storage and ground source heat pumps it would go a long way,

 

[PaulF]

When long range battery is "normal", the amount of miles people typically drive doesn't change. You'd only need to recharge your normal day mileage.

This is precisely the point you are consistently missing.
At the moment the average person (with an average income) has a choice of limited range EV's which as previously pointed out is not sufficient for a lot of people, just accept that. I know it's good enough for your second car but that's not everyone's situation.

Now, when the technology moves on, and gets cheaper in the process, the range of the average EV (not silly money Tesla/Jag etc) will increase thus they will fall into a lot more peoples requirements who do 100-200 miles a day, I fall into that category. So I will need to have the EV on charge for quite a while as it will need to have a full charge every morning when I set out to work.

 

[nilagin]

I bet the Focus' APR is a lot lower than what Nissan finance is asking. So the PCP isn't really comparable.

Bold statements seem to be in contradiction. Everyone need to forget about 400 miles in a few minutes, you can recharge at home, the amount of time this takes no longer matter, it's far more convenience to plug-in rather than be route-restricted to drive pass a petrol state every few days.

1.2% Apr at the moment on a Focus. Of course it is comparable, if Nissan can't offer a realistic finance rate, it makes the car even more expensive and that matters a lot. I could get a better finance rate than Nissans from my bank.
You previously said a £27k Nissan Leaf has a lot more tech than a Focus, I am intrigued to know what that tech is.
You are still assuming everyone has the ability to charge at home. I don't and what is more you are also assuming a lot of people are 1 car families, at present we are a 3 car family, soon to be a 4 car family when my youngest passes his test, how do you propose we would all be able to charge an EV?

 

[jamesev]

This is precisely the point you are consistently missing.
At the moment the average person (with an average income) has a choice of limited range EV's which as previously pointed out is not sufficient for a lot of people, just accept that. I know it's good enough for your second car but that's not everyone's situation.

Now, when the technology moves on, and gets cheaper in the process, the range of the average EV (not silly money Tesla/Jag etc) will increase thus they will fall into a lot more peoples requirements who do 100-200 miles a day, I fall into that category. So I will need to have the EV on charge for quite a while as it will need to have a full charge every morning when I set out to work.

but of course if every work place has charging then you only need enough charge for half of the round trip distance.

 

[wyx087]

I think when longer range batteries are available people like myself who do 40/50/60 mile each way daily commutes to work will start looking at EV as replacements for ICE so long as the home charge points cope and I dont want to be stopping my commute journey to charge my vehicle at a MWay service station every day or even every other day for 40 minutes. A 60 mile commute around the M25 ccan take 2 hrs and I dont want to extend that by 40 minutes because I cant charge at home. I know my employer would not provide charge points, indeed I would suggest they wont be able to provide as I would be treated as a staff employee and my employment contract plus IR35 excludes that.

This is precisely the point you are consistently missing.
At the moment the average person (with an average income) has a choice of limited range EV's which as previously pointed out is not sufficient for a lot of people, just accept that. I know it's good enough for your second car but that's not everyone's situation.

Now, when the technology moves on, and gets cheaper in the process, the range of the average EV (not silly money Tesla/Jag etc) will increase thus they will fall into a lot more peoples requirements who do 100-200 miles a day, I fall into that category. So I will need to have the EV on charge for quite a while as it will need to have a full charge every morning when I set out to work.

I have done 60 miles commute in winter using 24kWh battery Leaf. Meaning to drive 60 miles, 20kWh is needed. So unless national average commute is 200 miles, we will not see people trying to charge 3/4 of their 90kWh battery on a daily basis, as suggested by the National Grid forecourt thought article.

I do hope people have the sense to say enough is enough when they do 2 hour commutes

1.2% Apr at the moment on a Focus. Of course it is comparable, if Nissan can't offer a realistic finance rate, it makes the car even more expensive and that matters a lot. I could get a better finance rate than Nissans from my bank.
You previously said a £27k Nissan Leaf has a lot more tech than a Focus, I am intrigued to know what that tech is.
You are still assuming everyone has the ability to charge at home. I don't and what is more you are also assuming a lot of people are 1 car families, at present we are a 3 car family, soon to be a 4 car family when my youngest passes his test, how do you propose we would all be able to charge an EV?

Oh look, another new car that came out in the last year, Honda Civic: 5.9% APR. http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/civic-5-door/offers/finance.html
The Focus facelift is 4 years into its lifecycle, of course it will have competitive finance rates.

2018 Leaf Tekna has: Propilot, works similar to Tesla £5000 Autopilot option, the car can autosteer. Unique to Leaf is E-pedal where the car will blend regen braking and friction brakes to allow true one peddle driving. Also features all EV have: remote/timed pre-heating using heatpump. Then there's all the other general car stuff most other highend cars have such as 360 camera, heated seats, heated steering, LED headlights, leather seats, premium speaker etc.

 

[Nod]

my house in Crete

Loads of solar power in Crete but very few EVs other than a few scooters. I suppose the mountains might soak up a fair bit of range but I'm surprised there aren't more EVs there charging off the roof panels. And yes, I'm talking about electric panels not the almost universal water heaters on roofs.

 

[Mr Bump]

Loads of solar power in Crete but very few EVs other than a few scooters. I suppose the mountains might soak up a fair bit of range but I'm surprised there aren't more EVs there charging off the roof panels. And yes, I'm talking about electric panels not the almost universal water heaters on roofs.

yep we are quite interested in where electric scotters might go, we are both bikers but we don't think we will be big bikers in crete but certainly a small bike and a scooter are on our list

 

[Nod]

A friend over there has an electric scooter which he just plugs into a socket on a drop lead from the roof. IIRC it cost him a couple of grand (€) but has saved him more than that in fuel costs in the 3 years he's had it. Only uses it for local trips (20km or so round trip).

Would love to ride over there but wouldn't without leathers and armour and it's too bleeding hot for that! Was 1/2 tempted to take the R III down but it's hardly the place for it...

 

[PaulF]

but of course if every work place has charging then you only need enough charge for half of the round trip distance.

Yes, that would be fantastic. If only I could guarantee I went to the same static work place every day..............

While I am based at a customer site I do need to travel around a bit, sometimes to other sites, sometimes to other customers who don't have a car park let alone a charging facility! hence the variation in my daily commute from a minimum 70 miles to anything up to 250 miles.
The only solution is to have the range in the EV from the start of the day that guarantees I can make it back home.

 

[PaulF]

I have done 60 miles commute in winter using 24kWh battery Leaf. Meaning to drive 60 miles, 20kWh is needed. So unless national average commute is 200 miles, we will not see people trying to charge 3/4 of their 90kWh battery on a daily basis, as suggested by the National Grid forecourt thought article.

I do hope people have the sense to say enough is enough when they do 2 hour commutes

Ok, I will make this as clear as I can, as part of my job (an IT engineer) I drive around during the day.
My base site is 35 miles from home and takes around 45-50 minute drive but then, guess what, I sometimes need to go to other sites or even other accounts so sorry, I cannot fit in a top up charge as and when. Please don't suggest that I could top up at a service station during lunch, I try to avoid service stations as much as possible, certainly not having a lunch break on one of them

 

[PaulF]

Oh look, another new car that came out in the last year, Honda Civic: 5.9% APR. http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/civic-5-door/offers/finance.html
The Focus facelift is 4 years into its lifecycle, of course it will have competitive finance rates.
.

And that's still over £100 per month cheaper than the Leaf, which suggests that cost is still an issue.

Saw on Sky news this morning that EV sales in the UK have fallen in 2018, a report in the Times apparently. I think they mentioned there's only been around 1000 sales of EV since January 1st.

 

[Mr Bump]

A friend over there has an electric scooter which he just plugs into a socket on a drop lead from the roof. IIRC it cost him a couple of grand (€) but has saved him more than that in fuel costs in the 3 years he's had it. Only uses it for local trips (20km or so round trip).

Would love to ride over there but wouldn't without leathers and armour and it's too bleeding hot for that! Was 1/2 tempted to take the R III down but it's hardly the place for it...

we ride a lot in Greece on the 125cc or 175cc scooters, it is all about keeping it slow and carefull and keeping away from the main highway.
keep it uner 50km/h and I am ok. the greeks have respect for scooter users I find as even nanas use them

 

[wyx087]

Ok, I will make this as clear as I can, as part of my job (an IT engineer) I drive around during the day.
My base site is 35 miles from home and takes around 45-50 minute drive but then, guess what, I sometimes need to go to other sites or even other accounts so sorry, I cannot fit in a top up charge as and when. Please don't suggest that I could top up at a service station during lunch, I try to avoid service stations as much as possible, certainly not having a lunch break on one of them

As I've said many times, it's not for everyone. In your case, if your other sites are within 60 miles (one way) of your base site, then a 200 miles EV is still a viable option. From what you are saying, only occasionally you'll need to charge the full 200 miles worth of range overnight, most days you'd only need to recharge 70 miles of range overnight.

And that's still over £100 per month cheaper than the Leaf, which suggests that cost is still an issue.

So you are just going off the representative figures without actually putting any thought into this? Guess you also missed my point is in reply to the poor APR offer due to new model of cars.

It pains me having to do this:
Civic manual vs Leaf Acenta (using Nissan's finance calculator)
£21,280.00 vs £24,290 cash price
£5,443.87 vs £5,465 deposit
both 10k miles
£219 vs £280 per month PCP

£61 more expensive per month without need to shifting gears. How much fuel do you need to go 10k miles per year? £1200 according to my 45mpg diesel over cheap year of 2016, petrol costs now will be similar. It would cost ~£400 in electricity. Then there's savings from car tax, servicing, congestion charges, free parking etc.

So EV is more expensive to buy, but cheaper to run. Overall ownership is similar. Only looking at purchasing cost is quite foolish.

 

[nilagin]

I have done 60 miles commute in winter using 24kWh battery Leaf. Meaning to drive 60 miles, 20kWh is needed. So unless national average commute is 200 miles, we will not see people trying to charge 3/4 of their 90kWh battery on a daily basis, as suggested by the National Grid forecourt thought article.

I do hope people have the sense to say enough is enough when they do 2 hour commutes


Oh look, another new car that came out in the last year, Honda Civic: 5.9% APR. http://www.honda.co.uk/cars/new/civic-5-door/offers/finance.html
The Focus facelift is 4 years into its lifecycle, of course it will have competitive finance rates.

Fiesta, launched around 6 months ago, 1.2% Apr.
Ecosport Facelift, not sure if that was launched January or early February of this year, 1.2% Apr.
So not only are Ev's expensive on initial price, but interest rates are high too pushing the cost of ownership higher still.

 

[nilagin]

Then there's savings from car tax, servicing, congestion charges, free parking etc.

So EV is more expensive to buy, but cheaper to run. Overall ownership is similar. Only looking at purchasing cost is quite foolish.

I don't know where you park, but where I live, it doesn't matter what powers the car, you only get free parking if you are staying up to 1/2hr.
1st service on a Nissan Leaf is a standard £149.
1st service on my Focus RS will be about £179 (without employee discount on oil and filter) and I get a years Full AA breadown and relay cover included.
So an EV isn't that much cheaper to service.

 

[PaulF]

As I've said many times, it's not for everyone. In your case, if your other sites are within 60 miles (one way) of your base site, then a 200 miles EV is still a viable option. From what you are saying, only occasionally you'll need to charge the full 200 miles worth of range overnight, most days you'd only need to recharge 70 miles of range overnight.


So you are just going off the representative figures without actually putting any thought into this? Guess you also missed my point is in reply to the poor APR offer due to new model of cars.

It pains me having to do this:
Civic manual vs Leaf Acenta (using Nissan's finance calculator)
£21,280.00 vs £24,290 cash price
£5,443.87 vs £5,465 deposit
both 10k miles
£219 vs £280 per month PCP

£61 more expensive per month without need to shifting gears. How much fuel do you need to go 10k miles per year? £1200 according to my 45mpg diesel over cheap year of 2016, petrol costs now will be similar. It would cost ~£400 in electricity. Then there's savings from car tax, servicing, congestion charges, free parking etc.

So EV is more expensive to buy, but cheaper to run. Overall ownership is similar. Only looking at purchasing cost is quite foolish.

You do like an assumption
No, I would never be able to just do a 70 mile top up. I thought I'd made this clear but I'll give you an example of why not.

I go 35 miles to my normal site, do a few jobs there. Then a high severity call comes in for a bit of kit I know the most about with a 4 hour 'be onsite' SLA but it's 80 miles away in Wales.

I can never say for certain where I will need to go when I leave the house in the morning, it might be a 70 mile round trip or it might be 200-250 miles and that's the point. With an EV it would have to be fully charged every morning to cover those eventualities.
Now I understand that if I'd only done 70 miles one day then I'd only need to replenish that charge which I think is what you are referring to but the 70 mile day is the absolute minimum and by no means the norm.

I'll admit, I didn't look into the deal on the Civic, just the price on the page you linked to. And that seemed a rather high APR, only a fool would be willing to pay that rate.

I haven't personally looked into the cost of an EV for me as they simply won't do what I need them to do yet, in a we years maybe but not at the moment. I was using figures already posted in this thread from someone who took a test drive at the dealers and got the figures from the Nissan dealer direct and I'm pretty sure it was in the 350 a month area.

 

[MatBin]

As I've said many times, it's not for everyone. In your case, if your other sites are within 60 miles (one way) of your base site, then a 200 miles EV is still a viable option. From what you are saying, only occasionally you'll need to charge the full 200 miles worth of range overnight, most days you'd only need to recharge 70 miles of range overnight

I travel to work 60 miles away, so return trip is 120 miles, I am not allowed to use any of the Companies facilities else I will fall foul of tax laws and be regarded as employed instead of freelance so I would need to charge the car every night, if I don't I cannot complete a return trip the next day without adding in a 40 minute stop/recharge on the way home thereby making my 2 HR journey even longer.
And that's assuming the grid can supply my street with enough power, which presently looks decidedly unlikely as confirmed in my post linked to the suppliers own views.
They also point out that a large percentage of the UK population do not have the faciity to do off street parking, more detailed thoughts and solutions are required rather than some half thought out hopes.

 

[decigallen]

People that buy second hand cars. Failing that there would have to be a very expensive scrappage scheme.

This is 2040 we're chatting about, yeah? Most companies are talking of completely phasing out ICE by 2025. Given how battery tech is evolving, the running costs of a 10-15-year-old ICE car by 2040 would be ludicrous compared to buying a newer EV.

 

[decigallen]

I travel to work 60 miles away, so return trip is 120 miles, I am not allowed to use any of the Companies facilities else I will fall foul of tax laws and be regarded as employed instead of freelance so I would need to charge the car every night, if I don't I cannot complete a return trip the next day without adding in a 40 minute stop/recharge on the way home thereby making my 2 HR journey even longer.
And that's assuming the grid can supply my street with enough power, which presently looks decidedly unlikely as confirmed in my post linked to the suppliers own views.
They also point out that a large percentage of the UK population do not have the faciity to do off street parking, more detailed thoughts and solutions are required rather than some half thought out hopes.

I don't see grid supply being an issue at all in the medium to long-term. By the time EVs are the norm, most will have 300miles+ ranges. For many people that'll be a once a week charge scenario. If progress in battery tech continues as it is doing so, it's not unrealistic to expect 800-1000mile ranges to happen over the next decade. Maybe more. Charging will become faster and recharge points more common. In terms of energy consumption as a whole, homes and industries are becoming more efficient. We should also have more renewable energy resources as time progresses.

 

[MatBin]

I don't see grid supply being an issue at all in the medium to long-term. By the time EVs are the norm, most will have 300miles+ ranges. For many people that'll be a once a week charge scenario. If progress in battery tech continues as it is doing so, it's not unrealistic to expect 800-1000mile ranges to happen over the next decade. Maybe more. Charging will become faster and recharge points more common. In terms of energy consumption as a whole, homes and industries are becoming more efficient. We should also have more renewable energy resources as time progresses.

See that's my "problem" it's all hope and with luck, nothing concrete.

 

[nilagin]

This is 2040 we're chatting about, yeah? Most companies are talking of completely phasing out ICE by 2025. Given how battery tech is evolving, the running costs of a 10-15-year-old ICE car by 2040 would be ludicrous compared to buying a newer EV.

Just because battery tech is evolving, there is no evidence that running costs would increase for cars with an internal combustion engine. There will still be a lot of hybrids being built in 2025.

 

[nilagin]

By the time EVs are the norm, most will have 300miles+ ranges. For many people that'll be a once a week charge scenario. If progress in battery tech continues as it is doing so, it's not unrealistic to expect 800-1000mile ranges to happen over the next decade.

Make your mind up.

 

[andya700]

As I've said many times, it's not for everyone. In your case, if your other sites are within 60 miles (one way) of your base site, then a 200 miles EV is still a viable option. From what you are saying, only occasionally you'll need to charge the full 200 miles worth of range overnight, most days you'd only need to recharge 70 miles of range overnight.


So you are just going off the representative figures without actually putting any thought into this? Guess you also missed my point is in reply to the poor APR offer due to new model of cars.

It pains me having to do this:
Civic manual vs Leaf Acenta (using Nissan's finance calculator)
£21,280.00 vs £24,290 cash price
£5,443.87 vs £5,465 deposit
both 10k miles
£219 vs £280 per month PCP

£61 more expensive per month without need to shifting gears. How much fuel do you need to go 10k miles per year? £1200 according to my 45mpg diesel over cheap year of 2016, petrol costs now will be similar. It would cost ~£400 in electricity. Then there's savings from car tax, servicing, congestion charges, free parking etc.

So EV is more expensive to buy, but cheaper to run. Overall ownership is similar. Only looking at purchasing cost is quite foolish.

The most I have spent on a car in the thirty five years I have been driving is just over £5K, and I know quite a few people like me. I am not talking about "old bangers", I am talking about cars which will happily get me and the OH on long European driving trips and pass MOT's first time.
Electric vehicles are out of reach for the vast majority of the UK, and they are also not practical in the least.

 

[wyx087]

Fiesta, launched around 6 months ago, 1.2% Apr.
Ecosport Facelift, not sure if that was launched January or early February of this year, 1.2% Apr.
So not only are Ev's expensive on initial price, but interest rates are high too pushing the cost of ownership higher still.

The Honda's APR is even higher, your sweeping statement regarding EV being expensive based on APR figures is completely false.

Looking at OTR prices, EV are slightly more expensive to buy, but ownership cost is around the same or even less.

I don't know where you park, but where I live, it doesn't matter what powers the car, you only get free parking if you are staying up to 1/2hr.
1st service on a Nissan Leaf is a standard £149.
1st service on my Focus RS will be about £179 (without employee discount on oil and filter) and I get a years Full AA breadown and relay cover included.
So an EV isn't that much cheaper to service.

4 hour free parking at EV 7kW charging spots all around London. Eg. we'll be able to park for free near Stratford Westfield using an on-street charging spot nearby. I am pretty sure is true for most on-street charging spots all around UK, where spaces next to it charges money (a lot of money for 4 hours in case of London). It'll change as more people adopt EV, but currently it's free.

The cost difference of £30 per year pays for 1000 miles in an EV (10p per kWh, 3.3m/kWh winter consumption). Nissan service also includes AA breakdown and relay cover, which includes out of battery flatbed.

They also point out that a large percentage of the UK population do not have the faciity to do off street parking, more detailed thoughts and solutions are required rather than some half thought out hopes.

Lamp post charging?
https://www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/n...hicle-charging-network-set-for-london-borough

The most I have spent on a car in the thirty five years I have been driving is just over £5K, and I know quite a few people like me. I am not talking about "old bangers", I am talking about cars which will happily get me and the OH on long European driving trips and pass MOT's first time.
Electric vehicles are out of reach for the vast majority of the UK, and they are also not practical in the least.

Yes, currently EV are only suitable for a small group of people, they will require:
- house ownership (to install charger)
- a driveway
- most days drive less than EV maximum range
- a second car in the family for longer trips
- willing to buy ~3 year old cars starting from £8000 (this will disappear as EV's age)

But if situations suits you, EV is an excellent value, comfortable and refined proposition. Pre-heated 25c cabin and no ice on the windshield before you leave the house in the morning during winter is the bee's knees.

 

[Gaz J]

The Honda's APR is even higher, your sweeping statement regarding EV being expensive based on APR figures is completely false.

Looking at OTR prices, EV are slightly more expensive to buy, but ownership cost is around the same or even less.


4 hour free parking at EV 7kW charging spots all around London. Eg. we'll be able to park for free near Stratford Westfield using an on-street charging spot nearby. I am pretty sure is true for most on-street charging spots all around UK, where spaces next to it charges money (a lot of money for 4 hours in case of London). It'll change as more people adopt EV, but currently it's free.

The cost difference of £30 per year pays for 1000 miles in an EV (10p per kWh, 3.3m/kWh winter consumption). Nissan service also includes AA breakdown and relay cover, which includes out of battery flatbed.


Lamp post charging?
https://www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/n...hicle-charging-network-set-for-london-borough


Yes, currently EV are only suitable for a small group of people, they will require:
- house ownership (to install charger)
- a driveway
- most days drive less than EV maximum range
- a second car in the family for longer trips
- willing to buy ~3 year old cars starting from £8000 (this will disappear as EV's age)

But if situations suits you, EV is an excellent value, comfortable and refined proposition. Pre-heated 25c cabin and no ice on the windshield before you leave the house in the morning during winter is the bee's knees.

I'm glad you agree that if you don't have a drive then an EV car is not for you. I've just been for a stroll down the road as it's a nice morning. After half a mile the terrace housing starts. Both sides of the street, parking only allowed on one side. Probably only a quarter of the parking needed for the houses on that side never mind the other side. People take pot luck as to whether they come home and can park near to their own house. Many are parking 200 yards away. Infrastructure isn't remotely ready in rural areas and with our council just putting up council tax by 12.5% just to keep services where they are you can be pretty sure that they won't be spending money on it in the near future. Guess it would be great to see rows of charging points lined up along the road in the way that parking meters used to be but harsh reality is that it won't happen anytime soon. For rural communities hybrid will be the way forward and leave the EV revolution to the cities.

 

[nilagin]

But if situations suits you, EV is an excellent value, comfortable and refined proposition. Pre-heated 25c cabin and no ice on the windshield before you leave the house in the morning during winter is the bee's knees.

Even during the recent cold weather and -7°C temps my car wasn't cold inside, why would I need to preheat the cabin? As for frosted windows, mine are clear in a minute.
I get the impression you aren't really aware of what features cars have had for at least 15yrs or more.

 

[wyx087]

Even during the recent cold weather and -7°C temps my car wasn't cold inside, why would I need to preheat the cabin? As for frosted windows, mine are clear in a minute.
I get the impression you aren't really aware of what features cars have had for at least 15yrs or more.

-7c outside and after 14 hours of the car parked overnight, are you suggesting the inside of the car is somehow closer to "not cold" +7c?

Are you suggesting in countries where permitted, the remote engine start (or aux heater) features are useless because why would anyone need cabin pre-conditioning?
I'm getting the impression your reply is not very well thought out.

 

[Byker28i]

Lets just hope they keep the flammable spirit well away from the charging points then

Years ago, I used to drive fuel tankers and saw the results of a static spark while the driver was loading spirit.
He was lucky, it blew him clear, all he had was a broken arm, the tank, well I guess we have all seem the images of a dead beached whale thats been there for some time?
That's exactly what it looked like, molten and set aluminum resembling the rotting flesh and the baffle ribs looked like the rest of the carcass.

Wasn't that the cause of that huge explosion about 10 years ago. Buncefield? Hemel Hempsted way

They won't be at fuel stations anyway, they'd have to be dedicated places with the electrical supplies going into them. I doubt that'll be easy to do in existing locations.

 

[Byker28i]

You seem to be quoting positive EV articles, neither of which say what you are quoting.

To be honest - I've given up trying to have a valid discussion with you
We're being pushed towards EV, I can see it's got great advantages in the future, but you've got to look at the big picture for the expected rise in use, not just you're perfect ev world.

 

[nilagin]

-7c outside and after 14 hours of the car parked overnight, are you suggesting the inside of the car is somehow closer to "not cold" +7c?

Are you suggesting in countries where permitted, the remote engine start (or aux heater) features are useless because why would anyone need cabin pre-conditioning?
I'm getting the impression your reply is not very well thought out.

No it isn't that cold inside the car. You are obviously buying poorly insulated cars.
Cars sold in countries where it is that cold have had preheating systems for a very long time, they had them in the 60's and 70's when i was a child, they may well have had them earlier. This allows instantaneous heat as soon as you start the engine.

 

[gman]

BMW have the best preheating system on the market.

 

[wyx087]

We are pushing towards mass EV adoption. Having doubts right now is great if we put in the effort to help solve it. But the basis of a valid discussion is getting the facts right and don't misquote articles.

No it isn't that cold inside the car. You are obviously buying poorly insulated cars.
Cars sold in countries where it is that cold have had preheating systems for a very long time, they had them in the 60's and 70's when i was a child, they may well have had them earlier. This allows instantaneous heat as soon as you start the engine.

If you are happy to sit inside "not that cold" cars waiting a minute for windscreen to be cleared by resistive heating elements, that's your preference.

For vast majority of drivers, I think they'd prefer to get into a warm car and drive off, where the window is clear before they open the door.
Similarly, in summer, you can pre-condition the car so it is nice and cool before you open the car door.

I'm just pointing out the benefits of EV that allows pre-conditioning feature as basic functionality (because the system is not tied to powertrain). Not just the few cars that you have paid for the upgrade (aux heater, quickclear windscreen).

 

[decigallen]

Just because battery tech is evolving, there is no evidence that running costs would increase for cars with an internal combustion engine. There will still be a lot of hybrids being built in 2025.

EVs are already cheaper to run. Ubiquity will only bring their prices down to the level of an ICE car. An EV will be cheaper to tax, cheaper to fuel (potentially free if you've invested in renewables at home), cheaper to maintain (no oil change, fewer moving parts) and generally perform as well or better. They'll make for quieter cleaner cities. What then will be the argument for a 15 year old ICE car in 2040, even a hybrid?

Make your mind up.

I don't follow. How have I contradicted myself?

See that's my "problem" it's all hope and with luck, nothing concrete.

500-600mile range EVs already exist, albeit in prototype form. Fisker claim to have a 5-700mile range solid-state battery in the works that they say can be charged in around 1 minute. VW iD range will have 250mile+ batteries. The tech is moving fast. Bigger batteries with longer ranges will also make for longer lasting batteries as there will be less recharge-discharge cycles.

I don't see how any reading into the tech can conclude it to be hope and luck...

 

[AHILL]

EVs are already cheaper to run. Ubiquity will only bring their prices down to the level of an ICE car. An EV will be cheaper to tax, cheaper to fuel (potentially free if you've invested in renewables at home), cheaper to maintain (no oil change, fewer moving parts) and generally perform as well or better. They'll make for quieter cleaner cities. What then will be the argument for a 15 year old ICE car in 2040, even a hybrid?

.

the government relies very heavily on road tax and fuel tax to fund the country so I would be interested to know how you think it will be cheaper when everyone is driving EV's.
also with less employment in the motor/fuel industry who will pay for the deficit?
how will people without jobs be able to buy/run a car?

 

[nilagin]

We are pushing towards mass EV adoption. Having doubts right now is great if we put in the effort to help solve it. But the basis of a valid discussion is getting the facts right and don't misquote articles.


If you are happy to sit inside "not that cold" cars waiting a minute for windscreen to be cleared by resistive heating elements, that's your preference.

For vast majority of drivers, I think they'd prefer to get into a warm car and drive off, where the window is clear before they open the door.
Similarly, in summer, you can pre-condition the car so it is nice and cool before you open the car door.

I'm just pointing out the benefits of EV that allows pre-conditioning feature as basic functionality (because the system is not tied to powertrain). Not just the few cars that you have paid for the upgrade (aux heater, quickclear windscreen).

What upgrades? They are standard equipment, even on cars cheaper than an EV. Even if the car has been sitting in the sun all day, the standard tinted front windows and rear privacy glass do an amazing job of repelling the heat, it isn't hot inside, just a comfortable temperature, if it was hot inside, I could just make use of another standard feature, global opening, unlock the car as I approach keep my finger on the button and all windows and roof will open allowing any hot air out.

 

[nilagin]

the government relies very heavily on road tax and fuel tax to fund the country so I would be interested to know how you think it will be cheaper when everyone is driving EV's.
also with less employment in the motor/fuel industry who will pay for the deficit?
how will people without jobs be able to buy/run a car?

Jobs are already disappearing in the motor industry as a result of movement to EVs and Hybrids, coupled with car sharing etc in cities and large towns as they alienate car ownership. Ford have just announced plans for redundancies and early retirements in Europe with details to be announced to employees next Monday. I am only 55 so may not be eligible for the early retirement as it is usually for 58yrs plus. As much as I have enjoyed the last 38.5yrs, if the figures and terms are right, I may just be tempted.

As far as people becoming unemployed is concerned, it also has a knock on effect on the rest of the economy, there could be a hell of a lot of people with less money to spend and other totally unrelated companies start to struggle and end up having to let staff go as a result.

 

[nilagin]

EVs are already cheaper to run. Ubiquity will only bring their prices down to the level of an ICE car. An EV will be cheaper to tax, cheaper to fuel (potentially free if you've invested in renewables at home), cheaper to maintain (no oil change, fewer moving parts) and generally perform as well or better. They'll make for quieter cleaner cities. What then will be the argument for a 15 year old ICE car in 2040, even a hybrid?

As has already been mentioned, there is only £30 a year difference for servicing between an EV and a ICE vehicle. The number of moving parts doesn't really matter. Car electrics is one of the major reasons breakdown services get called upon after all. As has already been said, because of the high voltages involved, a lot of fit repairs will no longer be able to be done at home and owners will have to pay to have work done instead. So although you may have saved a small amount on servicing, you may well end up spending a lot more on repairs.

 

[MatBin]

500-600mile range EVs already exist, albeit in prototype form. Fisker claim to have a 5-700mile range solid-state battery in the works that they say can be charged in around 1 minute. VW iD range will have 250mile+ batteries. The tech is moving fast. Bigger batteries with longer ranges will also make for longer lasting batteries as there will be less recharge-discharge cycles.

I don't see how any reading into the tech can conclude it to be hope and luck...

The hope and with luck statement (by me) refers to where and how these super batteries are going to be charged, what sort of home charger will be available to charge a battery with a 600 mile range that can be charged in minutes? Nothing, or very little is in place at present and as I said previously I have lived through energy shortages before and it wasnt a pretty picture.
Why do you think most cars have locking fuel caps, it wasnt to deter someone putting sugar in your tank, or swiping the cap, it was put in place in the 70/80 to stop people swiping the fuel in your tank because it was in such short supply. The North Sea Oil industry came about because of rocketing fuel prices and a lack of home grown energy, something we again are rapidly approaching, we dont have another North Sea Oil reserve waiting to be exploited again. We "might" just have enough if we increase our nuclear electricity production and maximise our renewables but it's all hope and with luck as the Greens will love the proliferation of nuclear and we will then have the issue of nuclear waste and what to do with it. Or are you pinning your hopes on nuclear fission?

 

[PaulF]

EVs are already cheaper to run. Ubiquity will only bring their prices down to the level of an ICE car. An EV will be cheaper to tax, cheaper to fuel (potentially free if you've invested in renewables at home), cheaper to maintain (no oil change, fewer moving parts) and generally perform as well or better. They'll make for quieter cleaner cities. What then will be the argument for a 15 year old ICE car in 2040, even a hybrid?

500-600mile range EVs already exist, albeit in prototype form. Fisker claim to have a 5-700mile range solid-state battery in the works that they say can be charged in around 1 minute. VW iD range will have 250mile+ batteries. The tech is moving fast. Bigger batteries with longer ranges will also make for longer lasting batteries as there will be less recharge-discharge cycles.

I don't see how any reading into the tech can conclude it to be hope and luck...

EV's are currently cheaper on day to day costs, but don't forget that you'll have had to invest thousands for the solar panels etc. Oh and the car in the first place, they still seem to be at a premium.
As pointed out above the servicing cost is not that much difference despite the fewer moving parts in the engine/gear box. You do know that the rest of the EV is similar to an ICE vehicle, steering, suspension, running gear etc. The dealers will still be looking to make money on after sales.

Generally perform as well or better? Not the affordable ones, Leaf is by all accounts not good above 60mph, understears and has little in the way of acceleration above 50mph, quick to that point though. My diesel family saloon (it's actually an estate) can do 0-60 in less than 7.5 seconds, do 50-70 in the blink of an eye, useful for motorway driving, is automatic or manual if I choose, does pre climate control (not heated though) has nice heated seats, is warm in the coldest of weather in about 90 seconds (never where a coat in the car). And manages to do 550-600 miles per tank depending on how much fun I have
Cheaper to TAX, mines £30 a year!

The rest is a wish list, if the hopes are realised and the costs are affordable for the average family then great, EV's will increase in sales for those that can actually charge them at home without popping a fuse or the infrastructure is improved to the point they are viable but none of that is happening just yet.

 

[wyx087]

As has already been mentioned, there is only £30 a year difference for servicing between an EV and a ICE vehicle. The number of moving parts doesn't really matter. Car electrics is one of the major reasons breakdown services get called upon after all. As has already been said, because of the high voltages involved, a lot of fit repairs will no longer be able to be done at home and owners will have to pay to have work done instead. So although you may have saved a small amount on servicing, you may well end up spending a lot more on repairs.

The high voltage electronics are vastly different to 12v electronics in quality, you can't really compare dodgy 12v electronics to the high voltage components.

I think DIY servicing will become norm with EV ownerships. What's the point of paying £150 for someone to just look at the car? The same can be done for £50 or less at independent. The powertrain itself has no serviceable parts, so the servicing can be done at existing garage.

EV's are currently cheaper on day to day costs, but don't forget that you'll have had to invest thousands for the solar panels etc. Oh and the car in the first place, they still seem to be at a premium.
As pointed out above the servicing cost is not that much difference despite the fewer moving parts in the engine/gear box. You do know that the rest of the EV is similar to an ICE vehicle, steering, suspension, running gear etc. The dealers will still be looking to make money on after sales.

Generally perform as well or better? Not the affordable ones, Leaf is by all accounts not good above 60mph, understears and has little in the way of acceleration above 50mph, quick to that point though.

Yes, the Leaf will not be bullied up to 30mph at the lights This is a £9000 3 year old car, similar money to a Toyota hybrid (for a bulletproof auto constantly doing 0-30mph), it's a very affordable car when ownership costs are factored in.

The bold part is why I feel we need to get rid of the dealership model. Dealership does not have the same values as a car manufacturer, primarily the dealership makes more money if you come back to them for more repairs ("we will look after you" for a fee) whereas the manufacturer want you to see their car as beacon of reliability (eg. Kia's 7 year warranty).