Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

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The external look of a car is what people are more likely to want to change. Fewer care if the new car has an interior similar to their previous one. Many want other people to see them driving something cool and up to date. A BMW from 10 years ago doesn't look bad. But park it next to the modern version and you'll see what I mean. Some vehicle designs get to look old and tired very quickly.

Sure some classic designs will be loved forever. But most vehicles from the "classic" periods are now embarrassing or just curiosities. Very few stand the test of time.
 
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I do worry about the recent attitude towards diesel vehicles.
I bought my 2011 Focus 1.6 ecotech diesel estate back in 2012 as an ex Ford employees car with 7k on the clock. I've now done 90k on it and it still drive like a new car and I only have to pay £20 a year road tax. I'm getting a good 55 - 60 mpg out of it on my commute from Harlow to Luton.
It's an invaluable tool to me.
I already pay a fortune on fuel to get to work and I worry that at some stage in the future I will be forced to change to a petrol vehicle.
I haven't had a pay rise for 5 years and having to change to a petrol vehicle will essentially be a big pay cut for me.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
You better believe scrapyard recycling is incredibly efficient. Almost everything is disassembled and re-sold piece by piece. Just have a look at ebay and I am really grateful for that. Only the frame and some bad bits get crushed as metal waste.
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The metal isn't waste, it gets recycled as well.
 
wuyanxu said:
Are you saying the environment cost of constantly replacing perfectly good cars are worth it compared to those? So switchboard operator, toll collector and train/tube ticket officer should all still be in jobs because we are afraid of moving forward?

When autonomous cars get more common, a whole host of people will loose jobs. With AI becoming more powerful and soon able to write better codes, I will loose my job in 10-20 years. It's all part of moving forward.
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If you look at another post of mine you will see I linked to how car manufacturers are using more and more reusable energy to power their factories. So the environment doesn't take as much of a hit as you suspect. More and more improvements are made to cut waste and further reduce the energy required to power the factories.
As already pointed out when the 1st owner of a car gets tired of their car and wants a new one, the car gets a new owner who gets rid of an older car with higher emissions so the environmental hit actually gets smaller and smaller all the time.
I assume you are alluding to the fact that delivery drivers, chauffeurs, taxi drivers will lose their jobs when autonomous cars arrive. A driver in any of those fields would be wise to prepare themselves for such an event, invest in such a vehicle and sit back in leisure whilst the vehicle earns a living for them, although as driven cars will still be on the roads, there is no reason why many can't continue to do so themselves.
 
wave01 said:
This is tax the motorist just hidden by pollution. I have said this before they have known what is on fuel exhaust for donkeys years so why bring it up now. If they want a to scrape diesel then pay the going rate to the owners
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Emissions reduction has always been about CO2. Vehicle manufacturers have reduced this. Direct Injection, which has really only recently been wholly adopted (around 15yrs ago) is the best and most effective way of reducing CO2 as less fuel is used and more of it is burnt , but it produces Nox, so no they haven't known about it for donkeys years. EGR valves have been around for a while to combat the NOX, but as Emissions regulations have got stricter, filters (DPF) have been introduced as a required fitment 10yrs ago to reduce Nox emissions. The latest emissions regulations are tighter still and vehicle manufacturers have had to develop more effective emissions control. What doesn't help is the introduction of greener diesel which has a higher percentage bio content to use less oil, but the higher content creates more NOX when burnt.
 
ianp5a said:
The external look of a car is what people are more likely to want to change. Fewer care if the new car has an interior similar to their previous one. Many want other people to see them driving something cool and up to date. A BMW from 10 years ago doesn't look bad. But park it next to the modern version and you'll see what I mean. Some vehicle designs get to look old and tired very quickly.

Sure some classic designs will be loved forever. But most vehicles from the "classic" periods are now embarrassing or just curiosities. Very few stand the test of time.
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external look depends on the car in question. Some older cars look way better than new ones. My Passat B6 would have to be replaced with mega expensive B8 following that logic, because B7 were plain ugly box. However at the right price I would take a B7 to gain simpler and more efficient headlights (thus avoiding ebay xenon upgrades) and a further refined CR bluemotion 170ps engine.
Some old BMWs look great, with exception of 1st gen X5 (ugly rear end) and some early 2000 3-series. All 5 and 7s are fine.

There is a lot of hype about getting the LED headlights, infotainment, etc. The aftermarket options are mostly very poor so the fashionistas just upgrade.
 
LongLensPhotography said:
external look depends on the car in question.
Some old BMWs look great.
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Sure. But put a selection of, say, 5 series BMWs from different years, next to each other, all shiny, zero mileage and new, and ask someone which would they buy, price adjusted for technical differences. And most people would feel the newer look would draw them in. It's a very powerful effect, which the makers know all too well. So even if you do like a particular classic used car, it's different when you want something new and are paying the full price.
 
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dunno about anyone else, but my VW touran 1.6 diesel goes like stink now since they did the "fix" on the emissions scandal. Much more responsive and faster through the gears. I'll be keeping it as long as I can.
 
I'll be heading away from diesel next year, my bik tax is fast approaching £5k a year for a car which emits less than 140 because of the high list price. I'll probably go for the 330e which will bring my bik down to about a grand and as my daily commute is about 1 mile I should be able to do most my driving on battery.

Only downside is that it's a saloon only unless I go for the Merc, but I've just bought a roofbox so hopefully that will take care of things.
 
gman said:
I'll be heading away from diesel next year, my bik tax is fast approaching £5k a year for a car which emits less than 140 because of the high list price. I'll probably go for the 330e which will bring my bik down to about a grand and as my daily commute is about 1 mile I should be able to do most my driving on battery.

Only downside is that it's a saloon only unless I go for the Merc, but I've just bought a roofbox so hopefully that will take care of things.
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That's not a commute, that's a short walk. :D
 
I've just signed up for the BMW DriveNow city car sharing scheme. Where you pay per minute for a nearby BMW or Mini located using a phone app. And now I see that the BMWs seem to be Diesels, and even some of the Minis too. Oh the Irony!

At 31 cent/min. including fuel, maintenance, insurance and depreciation, I'll be saving money, even if I took a DriveNow car for 3 hours a month. Double what I do now. The downside is, it's not parked right outside my house, and I'd be adding to the city's Diesel emissions until the fleet is upgraded. But I will get to try out those electric BMWs available.
 
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gman said:
I'll be heading away from diesel next year, my bik tax is fast approaching £5k a year for a car which emits less than 140 because of the high list price. I'll probably go for the 330e which will bring my bik down to about a grand and as my daily commute is about 1 mile I should be able to do most my driving on battery.

Only downside is that it's a saloon only unless I go for the Merc, but I've just bought a roofbox so hopefully that will take care of things.
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i'm actaull quite disgusted at that 1 mile commute so you use an expensive planet killer.
bit lost for words
shame
 
I stop off at a school every morning but don't worry I leave the engine running and lock it remotely.
 
gman said:
I stop off at a school every morning but don't worry I leave the engine running and lock it remotely.
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Aha!!
Law breaker!! (section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988)
To the stocks with him! ;) :D
 
And throw in charges for handing out fags at the school gates to the kids, while you're at it.
 
Had to stop that as they can't afford 20 decks.
 
ianp5a said:
I've just signed up for the BMW DriveNow city car sharing scheme. Where you pay per minute for a nearby BMW or Mini located using a phone app. And now I see that the BMWs seem to be Diesels, and even some of the Minis too. Oh the Irony!

At 31 cent/min. including fuel, maintenance, insurance and depreciation, I'll be saving money, even if I took a DriveNow car for 3 hours a month. Double what I do now. The downside is, it's not parked right outside my house, and I'd be adding to the city's Diesel emissions until the fleet is upgraded. But I will get to try out those electric BMWs available.
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My todays drive would have cost me at least 111 euros at these prices. I paid around £30 in diesel. They'd better provide you with a brand new plush 7-series or X5 for that money.

The big corporations try to turn us into the permanent renter class and prices will only go up if they are successful. This is a killer price for any long distance travel, easily as bad as our overpriced trains. Let alone it will have mucous and deposits from previous users; not in the right place, etc, etc. At the end of the day they won't care what the engines are, in fact if it give you cancer - even better (a huge saving of your pension pot for the central banks). We must resist this evil plan of the globalists.
 
Bloody stupid thread ,I wasn't joking in my post earlier ,me and swmbo sat here till 1a.m on our i.pads looking at larger caravans .its now in instilled in our heads grrrrrrr
 
the black fox said:
Bloody stupid thread ,I wasn't joking in my post earlier ,me and swmbo sat here till 1a.m on our i.pads looking at larger caravans .its now in instilled in our heads grrrrrrr
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And??????

I have a Motorhome with a Merc Diesel engine - very easy with auto box. Needs a C1 licence as it is over 3.5 ton but a joy. Getting a Hyundai i10 next week to tow with it - you should check a motorhome as you meander the sellers [emoji5]....
 
Might be able to get a good deal on a Cadillac Escalade 6.2 V8 Sport Luxury and also a Jeep Grand Cherokee 6.4 HEMI SRT. Plenty of space for the family in both of them, could be a bit thirsty but I'm only doing short runs so shouldn't be a problem. Quite fancy a big V8, especially a HEMI.
 
The German Federal Administrative Court announced today that cities had the legal right to ban diesel engines from their city centres
https://www.thelocal.de/20180227/federal-court-gives-green-light-for-diesel-ban-in-german-cities
This will have a big impact on the automotive industry. And on other countries.

Things are steadily moving forward.

640x360

Diesel fumes recently
 
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wow progress indeed !
 
Things are steadily moving forward? You mean backwards?

Mazda have created a petrol engine that has a carbon footprint nearly on par with EV cars. The main difference is that it won’t need a new battery in 70-80k miles meaning that once you hit that benchmark an EV car is worse for the environment.

No country is set up to cover EV properly so selling these cars now is pointless. No country produces power cleanly, they all still rely on burning fuels for 80%+ of power produced making it again pretty pointless.

As for diesels being bad, most Euro6 cars are cleaner with the DPF and cat than these new petrols and if run for a long enough time efficiently (that being key) will even be cleaner than the EV cars every planet saving wannabe seems to preach about and will no doubt be driving themselves whilst sat in their frosted windowed ivory towers.

Give it 15 years and diesel will be the oil burner of choice assuming the power grid is still light years behind being clean which lets face it, is very likely! It’s ultimately all about tax. Tax. Tax. Oh and more tax.

Life is genuinely a pyramid scheme where the blind lead the blind and those that don’t want to be a part of it are ultimately forced to. Draconian capitalism lurks within the shadows fed by bribes and blackmail. It all wreaks of “flavour of the week”. The only real clean way forward realistically is from hydrogen fuel cells but the tech is more expensive to develope than EV so that is why it’s ultimately not being pushed.
 
Andrew Moore said:
Things are steadily moving forward? You mean backwards?
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Quite clearly forwards. This is a powerful incentive to develop and introduce precisely the cars you mentioned.

Andrew Moore said:
As for diesels being bad, most Euro6 cars are cleaner
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This ruling is about the dirty diesels. Not the clean ones.

Andrew Moore said:
those that don’t want to be a part of it are ultimately forced to.
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This ruling is designed to stop people forcing their toxic fumes on other people.

So forwards it is.
 
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ianp5a said:
Quite clearly forwards. This is a powerful incentive to develop and introduce precisely the cars you mentioned.
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Nope - you've entirely missed the whole point. All new cars must meet Euro 6 standards. Many cities are now looking at imposing restrictions on 'some' vehicles that don't meet these standards. These are mostly for privately owned cars, not transport or lorries for deliveries etc.

The point you are missing is that Germany has a huge manufacturing industry, especially in the vehicle market, so of course would be pushing that people have to buy new cars. Same reason they pushed Cats, rather than lean burn engines etc.
 
as soon as diesel and ban get mentioned all the die hards flock like the NRA to a gun rally.

once again, these laws are all about old filthy diesels that produce serious amounts of particulates and other lung irritants.

diesel is a dead fuel and over the next 20 years it will disappear but what we as a people need to do is drive the worst polluters out of our cities and towns really quickly and bravo for the forward think germans on this.
 
Mr Bump said:
as soon as diesel and ban get mentioned all the die hards flock like the NRA to a gun rally.

once again, these laws are all about old filthy diesels that produce serious amounts of particulates and other lung irritants.

diesel is a dead fuel and over the next 20 years it will disappear but what we as a people need to do is drive the worst polluters out of our cities and towns really quickly and bravo for the forward think germans on this.
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My newest car is now 5 years old, Euro 6 standards from a 2.2 diesel turbo. If applying these standards then they need to apply to all vehicles, buses, trucks etc, no exceptions. The we should look at shipping, trains, power generators etc
 
ianp5a said:
The German Federal Administrative Court announced today that cities had the legal right to ban diesel engines from their city centres
https://www.thelocal.de/20180227/federal-court-gives-green-light-for-diesel-ban-in-german-cities
This will have a big impact on the automotive industry. And on other countries.

Things are steadily moving forward.

640x360

Diesel fumes recently
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I wondered why my fellow Ford employees in Germany got paid more and had more holidays, now I know. They have a 365 day week.
 
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Byker28i said:
Nope - you've entirely missed the whole point. All new cars must meet Euro 6 standards. Many cities are now looking at imposing restrictions on 'some' vehicles that don't meet these standards. These are mostly for privately owned cars, not transport or lorries for deliveries etc.

The point you are missing Germany has a huge manufacturing industry, especially in the vehicle market, so of course would be pushing that people have to buy new cars. Same reason they pushed Cats, rather than lean burn engines etc.
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I'm not missing the whole point at all. The cities are currently not achieving the EU legal emissions levels. They are not allowed to let that continue. It's not just the case in Germany. But this will be noticed and have a knock on effect elsewhere. Events in the US also stand out, causing German companies some grief. And there is more to come.
 
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Andrew Moore said:
As for diesels being bad, most Euro6 cars are cleaner with the DPF and cat than these new petrols and if run for a long enough time efficiently
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A euro6 diesel will only be cleaner in terms of CO2, not particulates.
 
ianp5a said:
I'm not missing the whole point at all. The cities are currently not achieving the EU legal emissions levels. .
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...and who were the politicians pushing the EU legal emissions levels...
 
nilagin said:
A euro6 diesel will only be cleaner in terms of CO2, not particulates.
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But it's that which is being used as a measure of cleanliness by ian5pa (and as an entry requirement to some cities)
 
Andrew Moore said:
Things are steadily moving forward? You mean backwards?

Mazda have created a petrol engine that has a carbon footprint nearly on par with EV cars. The main difference is that it won’t need a new battery in 70-80k miles meaning that once you hit that benchmark an EV car is worse for the environment.

No country is set up to cover EV properly so selling these cars now is pointless. No country produces power cleanly, they all still rely on burning fuels for 80%+ of power produced making it again pretty pointless.

.
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There are already many Teslas and Leafs (and I'm sure others) out there with well over 100k miles with very little battery degradation.

Regarding your second point, proportionally, there aren't actually that many countries that aren't producing more than 20% of their energy from renewables. There are many countries who are almost exclusively renewables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_production_from_renewable_sources
 
gad-westy said:
There are already many Teslas and Leafs (and I'm sure others) out there with well over 100k miles with very little battery degradation.

Regarding your second point, proportionally, there aren't actually that many countries that aren't producing more than 20% of their energy from renewables. There are many countries who are almost exclusively renewables.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_electricity_production_from_renewable_sources
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I'm waiting for the tesla 3, I think thats when electric cars will hit the mainstream - or force other manufacturers to step up. They need to increase the range and recharge rate.

Renewable countries - cool - is there a correlating graph against vehicle ownership?
On a good day we can do just about 50%, usually it's around 20%
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
 
Byker28i said:
I'm waiting for the tesla 3, I think thats when electric cars will hit the mainstream - or force other manufacturers to step up. They need to increase the range and recharge rate.

Renewable countries - cool - is there a correlating graph against vehicle ownership?
On a good day we can do just about 50%, usually it's around 20%
http://gridwatch.co.uk/
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Yep. Tesla 3 will be interesting but current main stream stuff is already heading well into the right direction too without anybody paying that much attention. Nissan's Leaf will get 60kw version this year I believe which should be starting to knock on the door of 200 mile range -real world. Must admit I'm fascinated to see where this is all going. We had a Leaf 24kw for a while and it was fantastic at what it was good at but the range did severely limit its usefulness. Over a year since we got rid of that I can already see that the market has changed massively in that time.

Don't have a correlation graph I'm afraid, I was just surprised at the suggestion that nobody was producing even 20% renewables so I wiki'd it.
 
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A lot of the countries with high renewable power don't actually use much and/or have access to huge resources, like Iceland. Wasn't the Yahtzee river dam projects going to produce something like 200% for the country/china.

I rented a leaf to try it for a week, the range was awful as I commute 25 miles each , with most of it on the motorway. Real range was about 80-85 miles. The new 40Kw is supposed to be 177 miles so I'd expect 100-120

Edit: Oh and don't run the heater or aircon, knocks about 1/3rd the range off.

It's probably great if you go just around town, but I have to sometimes go 300 miles in a day. 150 miles, get there, work, 150 miles back. You'd want a guaranteed 200 miles range to be usable/allow for delays. When we get 200-250mile range then thats when they start becoming useful.
 
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