Car buyers should have 'long, hard think' about diesel

[Nod]

I once had a LHD Seat Panda - it can't be any worse than that.

Citroen Mehari... 2CV 4 in a plastic coat. Only available in LHD. TBH, I've only found LHD (here) or RHD (on the continent) a problem when overtaking's involved - not really an issue with the Mehari!

More Leafs down here than Teslas, although there are a fair few Teslas around. Closest Tesla dealer is in Bristol IIRC but there were plans to have one on the outskirts of town (apparently the highest concentration of car dealerships in Europe [Marsh Barton trading estate]).

 

[cosmicma]

iv'e been having a closer look at the renault zoe ( 41kw version ) i know about the battery lease and that is a bit of a stumbling block but a 2 year old car with as little as 10,000 miles on the clock for about 6 grand is a tempting deal ( battery lease aside for now )

my thoughts is to buy one sometime in the new year with battery lease if i can find a 41kw version for a good price with the hope RCI start letting people buy out of their lease in the UK in three years time or so, hopefully by then it should be easy enough to do so
i know you can't buy out of the battery lease on a second hand zoe today as far as i am aware but you can buy a zoe with the battery at a higher price but thats not really what i am looking for the price is more than i want to spend

anybody got a zoe and can give me a bit more info on them ?
it would be great to hear real world views on them

 

[srichards]

@cosmicma

I've just bought a zoe. A £6k two year old one probably won't be the 40. It will be the 22kw version. A 2 year old battery lease one of the ZE40 is usually £10k+ I got lucky and got a battery owned one for a good price. Wouldn't touch the lease as it's £700 a year down the toilet. The battery warranty on the ze40 is 8 years and 100k not the miserly 5 years and 60k of the 22kw one so the battery lease version is less attractive on the 40 but on an older 22kw I'd actually get a battery lease version.

ZE40s start at £10k generally. Even the lease ones. The battery owned ones were selling for £16-17k new in 2016. List price is something daft and the lease brings the second hand prices down on all of them even the battery owned ones.

Interior build quality is the main fault with them. It's pretty poor. Think 1990s Fiat and you won't be disappointed. Other than that it's a perfectly good small car. It's fine on motorways at 70 as well.

You can lease one on 6000 miles pa for £225 a month at the minute from Drive Electric.

It only charges on type 2 AC and most are R models which charge at no more than 22kw. The rarer Q ones do 43kw AC.

 

[Byker28i]

@cosmicma

I've just bought a zoe.
It's fine on motorways at 70 as well.

Lets just put this a little into perspective as I tested one.
At 70mph it's pretty near it's top speed of 84mph and whilst it will trundle along at 70, it's pretty slow at accelerating and there's a slight delay in any power coming in at that speed, which means if you're slowed down to 60mph because of lorries overtaking, it does take a while to get back upto speed. Which means you can geta queue behind you in the outside lane all waiting for the slow little car to get past the lorry, or you sit behind the lorry waiting for it to pull back into lane 1.
As a motorway car, unless traffic is really heavy, I couldn't recommend it. Thats really not it's intended purpose.
Around town it was nippy, easy to park and very quiet

 

[srichards]

Lets just put this a little into perspective as I tested one.
At 70mph it's pretty near it's top speed of 84mph and whilst it will trundle along at 70, it's pretty slow at accelerating and there's a slight delay in any power coming in at that speed, which means if you're slowed down to 60mph because of lorries overtaking, it does take a while to get back upto speed. Which means you can geta queue behind you in the outside lane all waiting for the slow little car to get past the lorry, or you sit behind the lorry waiting for it to pull back into lane 1.
As a motorway car, unless traffic is really heavy, I couldn't recommend it. Thats really not it's intended purpose.
Around town it was nippy, easy to park and very quiet

No it doesn't. Mine is fine. I am used to more powerful cars and there is no delay when I boot it. It's only slow and crap in Eco mode. I leave it in normal.

You have driven a 22kw by the sound of it. They are slow and they have less power. The ZE40 with 90 bhp is a different beast altogether.

 

[wyx087]

and the next problem looming is how to dispose of said batteries once they are no longer usable

Re-use them as stationary battery, you can buy "second life" Zoe battery repurposed as home battery here: https://www.powervault.co.uk/

So that's 10+ years in EV, followed by 15+ years as home battery. The EV part of lifecycle is already producing lower emissions than any ICE car over the same period.

Lets just put this a little into perspective as I tested one.
At 70mph it's pretty near it's top speed of 84mph and whilst it will trundle along at 70, it's pretty slow at accelerating and there's a slight delay in any power coming in at that speed, which means if you're slowed down to 60mph because of lorries overtaking, it does take a while to get back upto speed. Which means you can geta queue behind you in the outside lane all waiting for the slow little car to get past the lorry,

Cant' speak of the Zoe, but in my Leaf I have driven at outside lane speeds no problem. The speed pick-up from 70mph to overtake speed is instantaneous, more instant than VW DSG supposedly instant gear change. Only problem is the Leaf is horribly unaerodynamic, combined with small 24kWh battery makes sustaining that speed a rather slow way of travelling (stop more often)

Zoe has two problems you have to be aware of: battery lease and AC rapid charging. The R models can only rapid charge at 22kW 3-phase AC, which means it's not suitable for long distance driving. The Q models can rapid charge at 43kW 3-phase AC, but they are rare and motors are less efficient. 43kW AC rapid charging are likely to disappear sooner than Chademo offered in Leaf/Soul. Future public charging are likely to be split between 7kW 1-phase AC destination charging or 50+kW DC rapid charging.

 

[Byker28i]

A 2016 ZE40 earlier this year.
Honestly I tried that and the leaf, even test drove the new leaf (which is a much nicer car than the old one). Even with the bigger battery, its still ponderously slow at accelerating at motorway speeds. They are very nippy to 30, maybe 40, but then slow down. Around 12secs 0-60 for the bigger battery, against 13.5secs for the 22Kw. Both have the same top speed of 84mph, but I never managed to get it over 80. Too sluggish and it ate the range.

Sit it at 65 and it's fine, boring but fine, but I found the issue when a lorry pulled into the second lane at 0.1mph faster than the lorry in the inside lane. I was that person at the front of the queue holding up the other traffic in the outside lane as I took my turn to overtake.

I liked the Zoe around town. As a second car for local journeys I think it's great, nipping roundabout to roundabout, easy to park. Just as someone not used to small EV cars, this was something that caught me out.

 

[srichards]

@wuyanxu 22kw AC destination charging is becoming more common. Polar have started adding a few I notice. Zoes can also use the white Tesla AC destination chargers as well. They're often 22kw AC so a 40 is full in about 2 hours.

@Byker28i Nissan are supposed to be doing a performance Nismo Leaf. That is probably more you

 

[Byker28i]

Re-use them as stationary battery, you can buy "second life" Zoe battery repurposed as home battery here: https://www.powervault.co.uk/

So that's 10+ years in EV, followed by 15+ years as home battery. The EV part of lifecycle is already producing lower emissions than any ICE car over the same period.

There's a starting trend also in recycling the metals and elements in them, but home battery storage for solar panels must be a great use for them. There's not been that many batteries needed changing yet? I guess it's a problem that will be coming up as the first generation cars get older, 200-300K range, but what happens to batteries in accident damaged cars?

 

[Byker28i]

@wuyanxu 22kw AC destination charging is becoming more common. Polar have started adding a few I notice. Zoes can also use the white Tesla AC destination chargers as well. They're often 22kw AC so a 40 is full in about 2 hours.

@Byker28i Nissan are supposed to be doing a performance Nismo Leaf. That is probably more you

I noticed the new models are now geared. Now I accept that targetting a 60mph cruise for best battery range is probably the green idea, but if it's got the 70-85 acceleration so you can nip past, pull back in to the cruise?
Or maybe with everyone having EV's in the future, it'll change everyones driving habits, slow everyone down to the 70mph cruise, especially with smart motorways and cameras everywhere?

 

[srichards]

I noticed the new models are now geared. Now I accept that targetting a 60mph cruise for best battery range is probably the green idea, but if it's got the 70-85 acceleration so you can nip past, pull back in to the cruise?
Or maybe with everyone having EV's in the future, it'll change everyones driving habits, slow everyone down to the 70mph cruise, especially with smart motorways and cameras everywhere?

They're generally obsessed with slowing everybody down anyway. Bringing back lane discipline instead would do wonders. All the smart motorway sections are far more dangerous as traffic bunches dangerously instead of being more free flowing with plenty of gaps. Everybody sits side by side.

 

[Gaz J]

Re-use them as stationary battery, you can buy "second life" Zoe battery repurposed as home battery here: https://www.powervault.co.uk/

So that's 10+ years in EV, followed by 15+ years as home battery. The EV part of lifecycle is already producing lower emissions than any ICE car over the same period.

So what happens when they finally give up the ghost? 5 years, 10 years or 25 years they will still need to be dealt with.

 

[nilagin]

@wuyanxu
@Byker28i Nissan are supposed to be doing a performance Nismo Leaf. That is probably more you

Reading up on that it appears it would have the standard motor but with remapped throttle response. 0-62mph still remaining at 7.9 secs.

 

[Byker28i]

Reading up on that it appears it would have the standard motor but with remapped throttle response. 0-62mph still remaining at 7.9 secs.

Which is much better than the Zoe's 12-13.5 secs

 

[wyx087]

So what happens when they finally give up the ghost? 5 years, 10 years or 25 years they will still need to be dealt with.

How do you define "give up the ghost"?

Does a 50% battery degradation count? That means a 4kWh home battery can now only hold 2kWh. But it is still able to hold 2kWh, it is still storing excess solar generation. So I wouldn't class that as give up the ghost.

Unlike mechanical parts, a well managed battery doesn't give up the ghost. It just holds less energy, meaning it is still very useful in applications without need for good energy density.


Of course, accident damaged are a different story. Battery material recycling industry is still pretty much non existence. But that's in at least 20 years time for majority of the EV on the road. Re-use first, recycle much later.

 

[Nod]

i know about the battery lease and that is a bit of a stumbling block

When we were looking at them, the battery lease was what pushed us towards a Leaf rather than a Zoe - the lease was more than the fuel cost for the A Class it replaced so the battery lease option was (for us) a non starter.

 

[Mr Bump]

One of the things I would like to see implemented is speed controls on new EVs.
It is ridiculous that vehicles are sold in this country that can do 150mph.
I think all new EVs should be restricted to a maximum of 80mph
this should sort out lots of silly behaviour on the motorways.

 

[srichards]

Non lease Zoes are around. The more potential customers turn down battery lease cars the more likely the leases will get bought out. Other countries are allowed to buy out the lease. In the UK you can but generally you have to write off the rest of the car in an accident first which isn't very helpful.

So many people think all EVs have the the battery lease when in reality it's just one model that is saddled with it.

 

[neil_g]

One of the things I would like to see implemented is speed controls on new EVs.
It is ridiculous that vehicles are sold in this country that can do 150mph.
I think all new EVs should be restricted to a maximum of 80mph
this should sort out lots of silly behaviour on the motorways.

so would a big spike on the steering wheel..

the idiocy i see on the motorways every day is rarely speed related to be honest. more often its cutting up and tailgating in traffic or just using their phones.

 

[Byker28i]

How do you define "give up the ghost"?

Does a 50% battery degradation count? That means a 4kWh home battery can now only hold 2kWh. But it is still able to hold 2kWh, it is still storing excess solar generation. So I wouldn't class that as give up the ghost.

Unlike mechanical parts, a well managed battery doesn't give up the ghost. It just holds less energy, meaning it is still very useful in applications without need for good energy density.


Of course, accident damaged are a different story. Battery material recycling industry is still pretty much non existence. But that's in at least 20 years time for majority of the EV on the road. Re-use first, recycle much later.

Storage retention time? Lookign at the way say mobile phone batteries die, it's more the time it takes to discharge is rapidly shortened

 

[Byker28i]

One of the things I would like to see implemented is speed controls on new EVs.
It is ridiculous that vehicles are sold in this country that can do 150mph.
I think all new EVs should be restricted to a maximum of 80mph
this should sort out lots of silly behaviour on the motorways.

You were born with a willy, but you don't go around raping women all the time. I mean you have the available equipment!
Not that you need one for procreation. You could just turn up at a specialised clinic, be vetted if you were a decent parent, then your partner could be inseminated...

Same with a car - just because it can, doesn't mean you use that speed.

 

[nilagin]

One of the things I would like to see implemented is speed controls on new EVs.
It is ridiculous that vehicles are sold in this country that can do 150mph.
I think all new EVs should be restricted to a maximum of 80mph
this should sort out lots of silly behaviour on the motorways.

And what happens when you want to take your EV onto the continent and the Autobahns?

 

[wyx087]

Storage retention time? Lookign at the way say mobile phone batteries die, it's more the time it takes to discharge is rapidly shortened

Can't really compare EV battery to mobile phone (or laptop) battery. On the surface they are the same, but one is completely managed by the user with no safe margins at top and bottom; the other is well managed (often also temperature managed) by specifically tuned software to make it last and comes with lots of warnings and margins built-in.

For example, you are more likely to run smart phone down to 1% than an EV, simply because an out-of-juice EV is more troublesome than a dead smartphone. Similarly, smart phone battery sit at 100% trickle charging for 5 hrs on most days; but EV battery don't do trickle charge, the BMS shuts off charging once reaching 100%.

One random thought: I do hope dealerships keep the cars at close to 50% (3.7-3.8v per cell) charge state in storage. Li-on batteries don't like kept at 100% or 0% for prolong periods, it degrades quicker than a battery in constant use at around 50% (eg. home battery).


Re battery margins: This is a collection of all EV's on sale today, See columns "Battery Capacity" and "Usable Capacity" 0% discharged EV is not actually 0%, it has sustained less damage than a 0% discharged smart phone battery.
https://www.speakev.com/threads/comparative-ev-and-battery-pack-specs.109449/

Edit: The above link also answers someone previously asking about range to battery weight ratio. There is a battery pack weight column and a range column for each car.

 

[Byker28i]

Have to look at that later - I'll need a bigger screen than my laptop

 

[neil_g]

For example, you are more likely to run smart phone down to 1% than an EV, simply because an out-of-juice EV is more troublesome than a dead smartphone.

tell that to the guy at work who almost always has little to no battery because he can't charge it anywhere convenient.

(and yes he does have issues with it)

 

[Byker28i]

tell that to the guy at work who almost always has little to no battery because he can't charge it anywhere convenient.

(and yes he does have issues with it)

Car or phone? (or both )

 

[Nod]

The guy at Neil's work bought the wrong car. There are people for whom EVs aren't practical.

 

[neil_g]

Car or phone? (or both )

um, both to be honest

The guy at Neil's work bought the wrong car. There are people for whom EVs aren't practical.

to be fair it was a company so had no real choice. but thank you, it's nice to hear someone confirm that EV/PHEV are not for all purposes

 

[Nod]

Not sure that anyone has said that EVs are (currently) the answer to everyone's transport needs. When the infrastructure to keep them charged is improved, they might be. Don't forget that petrol used to be bought in gallon cans rather than being available on every street corner!

 

[neil_g]

there is a lot of eluding to it by some where they simply do not acknowledge the fact when responding to opposing opinion.

 

[PaulF]

Re-use them as stationary battery, you can buy "second life" Zoe battery repurposed as home battery here: https://www.powervault.co.uk/

So that's 10+ years in EV, followed by 15+ years as home battery. The EV part of lifecycle is already producing lower emissions than any ICE car over the same period.

Wasn't the Zoe first released in 2013?

Unless they borrowed Dr Who's mode of transport, your second statement is well off, that should be a maximum of 5 years in the Zoe then an unknown amount of time in a powervault.

In principle it seems a good use of a ev battery no longer suitable for its primary purpose but I do wish you would stick to facts and not assume a lot of stuff. You are in danger of having what could be some really good points dismissed as your assumption, I know I don't take much of what you post at face value without having to check for a reliable source.

Plus earlier in the thread wasn't it being suggested that the potention multiple K replacement cost of a ev battery being a pipe dream and they don't/won't loose their chargeing capacity to any significant degree for the life of the car?
Where are Powervault getting these used batteries from? Surely some motorist has had an expensive repair bill, in under 5 years if they are indeed Zoe batteries.

 

[Byker28i]

Wasn't the Zoe first released in 2013?

Unless they borrowed Dr Who's mode of transport, your second statement is well off, that should be a maximum of 5 years in the Zoe then an unknown amount of time in a powervault.

In principle it seems a good use of a ev battery no longer suitable for its primary purpose but I do wish you would stick to facts and not assume a lot of stuff. You are in danger of having what could be some really good points dismissed as your assumption, I know I don't take much of what you post at face value without having to check for a reliable source.

Plus earlier in the thread wasn't it being suggested that the potention multiple K replacement cost of a ev battery being a pipe dream and they don't/won't loose their chargeing capacity to any significant degree for the life of the car?
Where are Powervault getting these used batteries from? Surely some motorist has had an expensive repair bill, in under 5 years if they are indeed Zoe batteries.

More likely hybrid like the Prius. They've been around a long time and were popular. There's some of those doing 200-250K on a battery

 

[PaulF]

More likely hybrid like the Prius. They've been around a long time and were popular. There's some of those doing 200-250K on a battery

Maybe so, but that is kind of my point, if someone doesn't know something, don't fill in the blanks with wishful thinking! It just undermines their point.

Don't mean you by the way.

 

[ancient_mariner]

Citroen Mehari... 2CV 4 in a plastic coat. Only available in LHD. TBH, I've only found LHD (here) or RHD (on the continent) a problem when overtaking's involved - not really an issue with the Mehari!

Lets just put this a little into perspective as I tested one.
At 70mph it's pretty near it's top speed of 84mph and whilst it will trundle along at 70, it's pretty slow at accelerating and there's a slight delay in any power coming in at that speed, which means if you're slowed down to 60mph because of lorries overtaking, it does take a while to get back upto speed. Which means you can geta queue behind you in the outside lane all waiting for the slow little car to get past the lorry, or you sit behind the lorry waiting for it to pull back into lane 1.

Apparently the Zoe is the 21st century 2CV.

I really liked the Mehari, but the fibreglass shell around the steel chassis made them rot very quickly.

Had a discussion with one of our 2 EV owning people last week. He's passionate, and it started becoming a fairly arsey and one-sided conversation. And he loves his leaf, not least because he can plug it in & charge for free at work (his business, so he's happy to pay for the electric).

 

[Byker28i]

Yeah we have two BMW i3 with range extenders regularly drive from London to North Wiltshire, sit the car on the free charger all day and drive back, but range extender is needed for the commute for the safe feeling of distance
£20K gets you a 2.5 year old with range extender. 170bhp, usually lowish mileage

 

[Nod]

Apparently the Zoe is the 21st century 2CV.

I really liked the Mehari, but the fibreglass shell around the steel chassis made them rot very quickly.

The Zoe might be but (having owned and driven both) the Leaf is way, WAY better than any 2CV could ever be, even if it does have a shorter range! At least you can drive the Leaf from full to empty without being crippled by the seats' "support"...

The French Meharis were ABS, although there were some GRP ones built elsewhere. As you say, water got trapped between the body and the subframe and the subframe rotted out almost as fast as a '70s Lancia... Easy to take the body off and rebuild the subframe and the chassis is usually pretty sound. Still bloody 'orrible to drive!

 

[ancient_mariner]

At least you can drive the Leaf from full to empty without being crippled by the seats' "support"...

TBH loved our old deux chevaux, and it was a really good family car for us one year when the CX broke down and we had to take the kids & presents etc to the outlaws for Christmas. North Oxon to Larkfield near Maidstone was quite painless.

I've been in the Zoe but not the Leaf yet. What I don't get is why they make the outside of an electric car so different from a normal car, albeit deeply ugly, while designing the interior with tedious mediocre normality and lots of low-grade materials. Probably a BMW is better.

 

[srichards]

I sat in a new leaf. Seats were awful. Too firm and seat base was too short. Not impressed at all.

 

[wyx087]

Wasn't the Zoe first released in 2013?

Unless they borrowed Dr Who's mode of transport, your second statement is well off, that should be a maximum of 5 years in the Zoe then an unknown amount of time in a powervault.

In principle it seems a good use of a ev battery no longer suitable for its primary purpose but I do wish you would stick to facts and not assume a lot of stuff. You are in danger of having what could be some really good points dismissed as your assumption, I know I don't take much of what you post at face value without having to check for a reliable source.

Plus earlier in the thread wasn't it being suggested that the potention multiple K replacement cost of a ev battery being a pipe dream and they don't/won't loose their chargeing capacity to any significant degree for the life of the car?
Where are Powervault getting these used batteries from? Surely some motorist has had an expensive repair bill, in under 5 years if they are indeed Zoe batteries.

And here you are, with your assumptions that Zoe battery has maximum of 5 years in the car. You are in danger of having what could be some really good points dismissed as your assumption. I know I don't take much of what you post at face value without even needing to check for a reliable source.

if someone doesn't know something, don't fill in the blanks with wishful thinking! It just undermines their point.

FYI, there is also a Renault Fluence EV with same 22kWh pack produced in 2012-2013.

The fact is that most 5 year old Leaf have zero to 1 bar of health loss, that is around 85% battery degradation at 5 years. Lifetime of most cars is 10-15 years, so it's not hard to see battery last lifetime of the car, with slight reduced range. For cars with better BMS, such as Tesla's, are known to loose less capacity over time. Tesla have warranty of 8 years for 70% degradation in comparison to Nissan's 5 year 67%. Remember, warranty numbers is the absolute worst case scenario, with margins built-in, the manufacturers think battery will behave. I am sure they know their battery better than internet keyboard warriors comparing EV battery to smart phones.

Personally, if we were to keep the Leaf after PCP (depend on other second hand EV pricing, I quite like a more efficient EV with ACC), we will keep it for many years. If battery degrade to 50% at 15 years old doesn't mean it's end of life as long as other parts of the car still works. It's still valuable to us as a local runabout, its ability to do its job wouldn't have changed.

I don't know where they are getting the battery from. It might have been mentioned in the youtube Fully Charged episode featuring Powervault. Might be old dealership stock that no one wants due to battery lease? Might be written off Zoe? 2013 Zoe with battery lease is only worth £4000, a medium accident could be write off with battery intact.

 

[PaulF]

Re-use them as stationary battery, you can buy "second life" Zoe battery repurposed as home battery here: https://www.powervault.co.uk/

So that's 10+ years in EV, followed by 15+ years as home battery. The EV part of lifecycle is already producing lower emissions than any ICE car over the same period.


Cant' speak of the Zoe, but in my Leaf I have driven at outside lane speeds no problem. The speed pick-up from 70mph to overtake speed is instantaneous, more instant than VW DSG supposedly instant gear change. Only problem is the Leaf is horribly unaerodynamic, combined with small 24kWh battery makes sustaining that speed a rather slow way of travelling (stop more often)

Zoe has two problems you have to be aware of: battery lease and AC rapid charging. The R models can only rapid charge at 22kW 3-phase AC, which means it's not suitable for long distance driving. The Q models can rapid charge at 43kW 3-phase AC, but they are rare and motors are less efficient. 43kW AC rapid charging are likely to disappear sooner than Chademo offered in Leaf/Soul. Future public charging are likely to be split between 7kW 1-phase AC destination charging or 50+kW DC rapid charging.

And here you are, with your assumptions that Zoe battery has maximum of 5 years in the car. You are in danger of having what could be some really good points dismissed as your assumption. I know I don't take much of what you post at face value without even needing to check for a reliable source.


I don't know where they are getting the battery from. It might have been mentioned in the youtube Fully Charged episode featuring Powervault. Might be old dealership stock that no one wants due to battery lease? Might be written off Zoe? 2013 Zoe with battery lease is only worth £4000, a medium accident could be write off with battery intact.

Sorry, no assumption on my part, just basic comprehension and a little maths.

You first stated that Zoe batteries were being re purposed in PowerVault home battery then followed that up with your second statement 'So that's 10 years in'

I simply pointed out that as the Zoe was first launched in 2013, it's not possible for the 're purposed' battery to have been in a EV Zoe for 10 years, it would be 5 years at maximum because the Zoe has only been out for 5 years, it really is that simple maths coming into play.

So, either your first statement is incorrect, the one about the Zoe batteries, and you didn't think to check or you second statement is incorrect.

I'd go with the first statement is incorrect and the second statement is your opinion/assumption as you cannot know how long a re purposed battery will last, nor how long the particular battery was in a EV in the first place.

In your last reply, it seems your source could have been the extremely biased Fully Charged youtube channel. I have watched a few of their videos hoping to get an insight into EV etc from a knowledgeable source but the ones I saw were so biased and when I check a few of their 'facts' I found them to be b*****ks so dismiss anything from them without checking another source.