Canon ST E2 V's RF602's - High Speed Sync

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Legacy

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Phil
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Scenario (lets say for kids on a trampoline/Jumping/Slides)


I have a ST E2 and am Considering a purchase of the RF602's....

I spotted somewhere that the latter can only sync to the max that your camera will allow/sync at (without added magic) i.e. my 400D will max out at 200th/sec unless I manually override it with HHS.....(which is unavailable with the RF602?)

When using off camera flash, and setting the flash to manual, does the Max sync speed of the camera still kick in then ?

So if using the RF602's I could either (for example)

* Shut the aperture down
* Drop the ISO
* Drop the power on the Flash


Are there any options that include the HHS (Other than my STE2? Would we be talking pocket Wizards to jump to this kind of scenario? or would you think the flash would be sufficient to freeze the action

Many thanks to those in the know !

Phil
 
You'll do fine freezing the action with flash.

This shot of Amy jumping off the wall was at 1/180th, fastest sync speed I can handle to kill the ambient light (it was really sunny on Sunday) @ F22 . Flash was cranked up to full power (vivitar 285) and bare, and I've done similar stuff on trampolines too.

_IGP9712.jpg


@f8 You'll see it just makes Amy brighter, but she's still frozen in flight.

_IGP9714.jpg
 
At normal sync speeds the duration of the flash pulse from a 580EX is 1/1000 or shorter. Thus, even if you shoot at 1/200 or 1/250 the flash itelf will only last a maximum of 1/1000 - fast enough to freeze most action.

If you were to use HSS then, ironically, because the flash is strobed for the whole duration of the shutter open time you may actually see more blurring because your flash pulse would potentially be stretched out over 1/320, 1/500, 1/640, 1/800 etc.. If you did not need full flash power then the LSS flash would last even less than 1/1000, which would potentially put HSS at an increased disadvantage in terms of flash freezing power.

Source - http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/2008/07/12/canon-580ex-flash-duration/
 
and you will loose ETTL if you bin the ST-E2
 
JasonRS said:
You'll do fine freezing the action with flash.

This shot of Amy jumping off the wall was at 1/180th, fastest sync speed I can handle to kill the ambient light (it was really sunny on Sunday) @ F22 . Flash was cranked up to full power (vivitar 285) and bare, and I've done similar stuff on trampolines too.

_IGP9712.jpg


@f8 You'll see it just makes Amy brighter, but she's still frozen in flight.

_IGP9714.jpg
Click to expand...


Nice examples there !!

Just the type of thing I was thinking of ...

Cheers


tdodd said:
At normal sync speeds the duration of the flash pulse from a 580EX is 1/1000 or shorter. Thus, even if you shoot at 1/200 or 1/250 the flash itelf will only last a maximum of 1/1000 - fast enough to freeze most action.

If you were to use HSS then, ironically, because the flash is strobed for the whole duration of the shutter open time you may actually see more blurring because your flash pulse would potentially be stretched out over 1/320, 1/500, 1/640, 1/800 etc.. If you did not need full flash power then the LSS flash would last even less than 1/1000, which would potentially put HSS at an increased disadvantage in terms of flash freezing power.

Source - http://www.photosbykev.com/wordpress/2008/07/12/canon-580ex-flash-duration/
Click to expand...


Makes sense to me !! I've only recently understood that the Flash 'strobes' at higher sync speeds, so thanks for pointing that out..


admirable said:
and you will loose ETTL if you bin the ST-E2
Click to expand...

Not so worried about loosing the ETTL side of things. I'm quite happy experimenting on balancing the light myself, but thanks for the hi-light !



Cheers all !!

I'm gonna place my order !! :clap:

Phil
 
david1701 said:
gain just a bit of range though :D
Click to expand...

Yes and particularly in bright sunlight conditions, where I understand the IR of the STE2 can fall over ?

Cheers

Phil
 
My experience with Canon's E-TTL sync is that it works pretty well, and the only thing that spooks it is direct sunlight on the sensor. Cuts my range down to under four metres (using 580EX as master) but just shading the gun and it shoots back up to 10 metres or more.

Using the flash normally will freeze the action for sure, but if the movement is fast you'll get ghosting from the longer ambient exposure. In the trampoline shots, it looks like she's at the top of the jump and therefore not actually moving much, if at all, hence no ghosting.

The ghosting might actually look good and give a cool impression of speed, but second curtain sync will almost certainly be better, putting the blur behind the movement rather than in front of it. TBH, I think I would play with second curtain sync and deliberate blur, maybe slowing down the shutter even further to emphasise it. Worth a try.

If you don't want ghosting with a moving subject, HSS is the only way but as Tim explained you'll need to get the shutter speed up to at least 1/500sec and preferably 1/1000 or less to see any benefit - depends on the speed of the action. HSS reduces flash range substantially and works the gun hard, so you'll get slower recycling (and dead batteries in double quick time :eek: ).

I don't see why HSS will not work with the radio triggers. No E-TTL of course, but on manual I think it would work okay. I've not tried it, but certainly worth a punt :)

Edit: Doh - see post #10
 
HoppyUK said:
I don't see why HSS will not work with the radio triggers. No E-TTL of course, but on manual I think it would work okay. I've not tried it, but certainly worth a punt :)
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Wondered when you'd Join the Party ;)

Now that is the bit that I meant to question earlier... D'oh....

With the Guns on Manual and being happy with NO ETTL......... and understanding that the faster the shutter speed the less effective the range will be.......... I can still use a higher shutter speed than the 'said 200'

Or do the triggers have some kind of limiting electronics ?

Phil
 
Legacy said:
Wondered when you'd Join the Party ;)

Now that is the bit that I meant to question earlier... D'oh....

With the Guns on Manual and being happy with NO ETTL......... and understanding that the faster the shutter speed the less effective the range will be.......... I can still use a higher shutter speed than the 'said 200'
Or do the triggers have some kind of limiting electronics ?

Phil
Click to expand...

I don't see why not. Theory as I understand it says it should work, but not all these radio triggers are as good as they should be (or so I'm told) so I can't be sure.

FlashInThePan might have a definite answer.

Edit: wrong! See posts 13 and 14 below.
 
I've just placed an order with Graham and will have a little play with it when I get it to see what it can do !!

Thanks all for the comments/info ! :clap:

Phil
 
my 602'a aren't here yet but I doubt you will get HSS on them as they seem to be trigger pin only (can confirm when they arrive) and the other 4 pins are needed of the camera to communicate with the flash to get HSS (this data is sent via IR if a 580/ste2 is the master)
 
david1701 said:
my 602'a aren't here yet but I doubt you will get HSS on them as they seem to be trigger pin only (can confirm when they arrive) and the other 4 pins are needed of the camera to communicate with the flash to get HSS (this data is sent via IR if a 580/ste2 is the master)
Click to expand...

David you're right! Apologies Legacy - I hadn't thought this through :(

For HSS to work, the flash needs to talk to the camera and tell it to trigger the flash as soon as the first curtain starts to run. It does this through ETTL IR.

Left to its own devices (ie with a radio trigger) the camera will default to normal sync and not fire the flash until the first curtain is fully open, ie far too late.

Furthermore, I think the camera will not allow a shutter speed above x-sync to be set when a flash is attached, unless it detects an HSS enabled flash is connected.

Sorry :eek:

You could perhaps make it work, or at least make the remote flash fire in HSS mode, if it is synched with an optical slave and triggered by an on-camera flash set to HSS. Would have to be fully manual all round though I think, to avoid problems with the pre flash.

This stuff does your head in, and detailed operation tends to be very system specific. The only way to be 100% certain is to try it.

Edit: This isn't completely true either! "Furthermore, I think the camera will not allow a shutter speed above x-sync to be set when a flash is attached, unless it detects an HSS enabled flash is connected." I just tried it and, if you have an ETTL flash connected, the camera will indeed not allow a shutter speed above x-sync to be set, but if HSS is set, of course it will. But then again, the camera will also allow you to set any shutter speed with a flash connected either through the trigger pins (not ETTL pins) in the hot shoe, or the co-axial sync socket. Phew... Why can't you guys just stick with ETTL or CLS? Everything works properly that way :thinking:
 
Thanks David......

Think I'll have a play when they turn up, as you say..... and also have a look at them links that Jason provided to see what they have to offer...


Hoppy..... Understand you can't be correct all the time !! :thinking:

But I always appreciate your responses !

Thanks

Phil
 
Legacy said:
Thanks Jase !

Thats my evening taken care of :D
Click to expand...

If you want to play with x-sync speeds, also check out the Hyper-Sync feature on the new Pocket Wizards :)

Edit: Just seen this above:
"Hoppy..... Understand you can't be correct all the time !! But I always appreciate your responses !"

Your're right. And you're welcome :)
 
HoppyUK said:
If you want to play with x-sync speeds, also check out the Hyper-Sync feature on the new Pocket Wizards :)
Click to expand...

Thats ALL I need....... Someone else trying to spend my money for me aswell !! :lol:

I can cope VERY well on my own thanks...................... :D

Just google 'ing it now :D

Phil
 
Got my RF-602 today and just had 5mins play before I hit the sack.....

I was interested in testing out the sync speed with my 400D.........

just as suggested, 200/sec is the limit on my 400d........... Actually, there is a slight darkness to the one edge as if it is still catching....

When I slow it down to 160/sec it's as clear as a whistle (obviously a clean whistle !!)

just thought I'd follow up with my findings....

Still happy with my purchase....... and will use it within it's limitations.... if thats what ya wanna call it :D

Cheers
Phil
 
Legacy said:
Got my RF-602 today and just had 5mins play before I hit the sack.....

I was interested in testing out the sync speed with my 400D.........

just as suggested, 200/sec is the limit on my 400d........... Actually, there is a slight darkness to the one edge as if it is still catching....

When I slow it down to 160/sec it's as clear as a whistle (obviously a clean whistle !!)

just thought I'd follow up with my findings....

Still happy with my purchase....... and will use it within it's limitations.... if thats what ya wanna call it :D

Cheers
Phil
Click to expand...

I get 1/200 with my 50d but I can cable sync at 1/250
 
Legacy said:
Got my RF-602 today and just had 5mins play before I hit the sack.....

I was interested in testing out the sync speed with my 400D.........

just as suggested, 200/sec is the limit on my 400d........... Actually, there is a slight darkness to the one edge as if it is still catching....

When I slow it down to 160/sec it's as clear as a whistle (obviously a clean whistle !!)

just thought I'd follow up with my findings....

Still happy with my purchase....... and will use it within it's limitations.... if thats what ya wanna call it :D

Cheers
Phil
Click to expand...

david1701 said:
I get 1/200 with my 50d but I can cable sync at 1/250
Click to expand...

You guys appear to be saying that max x-sync speed is not available when using the RF602 radio trigger - I guess there's a tiny delay in the signal.

In which case I owe an apology to Garry Edwards. I've never experienced x-sync delay with radio triggers, but then I've only used Pocket Wizards which are a lot more expensive.

Point duly noted ;)
 
I use the rf602's on my D300 @ 1/250 with no probs
 
1/250 with my 50D and 580EX I and 580EX II, time after time.
 
With my 50d and 580EXII, I couldn't get 1/250 to stick with the RF-602's during the brief test I gave them yesterday. 1/200 was about 4 out of 5 and 1/180 was 100% hit.
 
I haven't tried the 602s yet, but iirc the old V2s Ebay triggers used to work (when they actually fired :bang:) right up to 1/1000 or thereabouts on some of the older (D70 etc) Nikon cameras and the Canon G9/G10 etc
 
You can only sync the ebay triggers to Canon cameras at their maximum sync speed or less. That's a fact. What's causing it is the delay of transmission from the trigger to the receiver, and your camera's shutter is not "electronic" its called something else I can't remember.

Sample pics:
1/250sec 40D with Catus V2s
2428886373_b623ae0ba1_o.jpg


1/200sec
2429698586_18283347ec_o.jpg


1/160sec
2429698896_9c738d89a9_o.jpg
 
Flash In The Pan said:
I haven't tried the 602s yet, but iirc the old V2s Ebay triggers used to work (when they actually fired :bang:) right up to 1/1000 or thereabouts on some of the older (D70 etc) Nikon cameras and the Canon G9/G10 etc
Click to expand...

Those cameras don't x-sync like a conventional focal plane shutter - they have some 'digital assist' with sensor switching using flash.

I think its safer to say that all current DSLRs will have a potential x-sync problem with cheap tiggers. If there is any kind of delay in the system you're going to get part of the image unexposed, ie black.

Of course, slowing down the shutter speed fixes it but that's not always possible shooting outdoors - which I thought was the whole point of radio triggering. It strikes me as being quite a serious drawback. On the other hand, Pocket Wizard make quite a play on the fact that their system is so fast (and mighty clever) that you can actually increase normal x-sync speed slightly with their new E-TTL version.
 
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