Canon FF mirrorless...

RedRobin said:
....Alan, I think you are expecting everything to happen too quickly. If you stop and think about everything that is involved in developing such complex products and getting them ready enough to launch on the public, I think that both Canon and Nikon have done well but Canon have done slightly better than Nikon at this stage.

Some photographers keep saying that they think that Sony is miles ahead and offers better features but personally I find them too small, less tactile and less satisfactory ergonomically. Also, the lens range doesn't compare well with Canon's. It surprised me but a friend sold his Sony A7-3 and bought a Canon 5D-4 and much prefers it - But that's just another photographer's differing preferences.
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I'm guessing you haven't held the Nikon/Canon mirrorless cameras yet, so best to reserve judgement. I'd expected to hate the Sonys ergonomically given that I think Nikon pretty much have it nailed in that department, but I absolutely love the Sony body. Of a couple of dozen photographers I know of that switched to the A7III, only one has sold it and stuck with their old Canikon system.

Objectively speaking, Sony absolutely is miles ahead at present in almost every respect and will surely have their next gen cameras on the market before Nikon/Canon do.
 
HoppyUK said:
Edit: more simply, all Canon DSLR lenses will fit any Canon camera. Canon mirrorless lenses will only fit their respective R and M bodies.
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You can't fit EF-S lenses on an EF-mount body such as the 5DMkIII though.
 
daffington said:
.

The 28-70mm f/2 has to be one of the most exciting zoom lenses released in the last few years for sure. Yes it's a hefty looking chap, and lofty in price too, but what a great lens this could be!
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Some of the lenses are an odd choose to me, such as the crazy priced 28-70mm and 50mm. They release essentially an entry level FF mirrorless body with extremely high end premium lenses, seems a mismatch to me :confused:

meduk1 said:
So for someone with no baggage of existing lenses and brand commitment, what's the thoughts? I had been set on a Sony A7(r - maybe)III, but given Canons recent announcement I'm really tempted. The new 24-105 looks good, as does the body. Nothings perfect right now but with no commitments to Canon, Nikon or Sony I'm seriously considering the new R
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Try all 3 and see what is best for you. I ruled the Sony out as it just didn’t work for me ergonomically.

Sony has the best specs (barring weather sealing), Nikon next and Canon bringing up the rear, but ergonomics and lens line up are arguably more important.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Sony hands down. Its the only ff system that is more complete then others.
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Whilst it is the most mature FF mirrorless system (natively at least) there are other things to consider that are pretty important too ;)
 
snerkler said:
Some of the lenses are an odd choose to me, such as the crazy priced 28-70mm and 50mm. They release essentially an entry level FF mirrorless body with extremely high end premium lenses, seems a mismatch to me :confused:
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As I said earlier, I think they've opted for exotic lenses because their existing lines are so comprehensive and they can't produce new designs for a smaller number of customers at a lower price point.

While I agree they're not an obvious match for the R I think Canon would probably agree and they're meant more so for whatever other RF bodies they bring out.

snerkler said:
Try all 3 and see what is best for you. I ruled the Sony out as it just didn’t work for me ergonomically.

Sony has the best specs (barring weather sealing), Nikon next and Canon bringing up the rear, but ergonomics and lens line up are arguably more important.
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We've all got different priorities and I'm glad we've got plenty of options from several brands as there is no one perfect camera yet.
 
snerkler said:
I ruled the Sony out as it just didn’t work for me ergonomically.
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This is a much bigger deal than some imagine. I too kind of ruled out Sony because I don't like their ergos, I've held an A7 in the past and didn't like it. I know I could force myself to get used to it, but ... why? when other models are much more comfortable. I know this is really silly, but I also hate the look of their lenses too, even some of their pricier ones look cheap to me for whatever reason.
 
maarten.dhaese said:
You can't fit EF-S lenses on an EF-mount body such as the 5DMkIII though.
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Oops! Correct. I've re-edited my original post to read:

...all Canon DSLR lenses will fit any Canon mirrorless camera too. Canon mirrorless lenses will only fit their respective R and M bodies.
 
Cagey75 said:
This is a much bigger deal than some imagine. I too kind of ruled out Sony because I don't like their ergos, I've held an A7 in the past and didn't like it. I know I could force myself to get used to it, but ... why? when other models are much more comfortable. I know this is really silly, but I also hate the look of their lenses too, even some of their pricier ones look cheap to me for whatever reason.
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yep main reason I sold my sony ff
 
simonbarker said:
As I said earlier, I think they've opted for exotic lenses because their existing lines are so comprehensive and they can't produce new designs for a smaller number of customers at a lower price point.

While I agree they're not an obvious match for the R I think Canon would probably agree and they're meant more so for whatever other RF bodies they bring out.



We've all got different priorities and I'm glad we've got plenty of options from several brands as there is no one perfect camera yet.
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Obviously Canon know the market better than myself so they clearly think they will sell.
 
simonbarker said:
In Canon's case it may be that they simply don't want to compete with Sony on their terms.
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I think you're right.

Look at the competition between Canon and Nikon in the DSLR market. Apart from the 1DX / D5, there really aren't many bodies that are designed to go head-to-head with the opposition. That's entirely deliberate. Partly it's so that they can have coherency within their own model ranges, and partly I think it's because neither of them want to risk being in a situation where their camera X has the same specs or features as competitor's camera Y, only it's clearly not as good. That would hurt the brand. So each of their cameras will have feature sets and specs that play to their own perceived strengths without directly addressing what the opposition is doing. I think that's natural and obvious behaviour, and I think that's what we'll see from both Canon and Nikon in their approach to Sony.
 
StewartR said:
I think you're right.

Look at the competition between Canon and Nikon in the DSLR market. Apart from the 1DX / D5, there really aren't many bodies that are designed to go head-to-head with the opposition. That's entirely deliberate. Partly it's so that they can have coherency within their own model ranges, and partly I think it's because neither of them want to risk being in a situation where their camera X has the same specs or features as competitor's camera Y, only it's clearly not as good. That would hurt the brand. So each of their cameras will have feature sets and specs that play to their own perceived strengths without directly addressing what the opposition is doing. I think that's natural and obvious behaviour, and I think that's what we'll see from both Canon and Nikon in their approach to Sony.
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Interesting perspective.
 
snerkler said:
Some of the lenses are an odd choose to me, such as the crazy priced 28-70mm and 50mm. They release essentially an entry level FF mirrorless body with extremely high end premium lenses, seems a mismatch to me :confused:

Try all 3 and see what is best for you. I ruled the Sony out as it just didn’t work for me ergonomically.

Sony has the best specs (barring weather sealing), Nikon next and Canon bringing up the rear, but ergonomics and lens line up are arguably more important.
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Sony has the superior lens line up.personaly I wouldn't put ergonomics ahead of lens line up and the ergonomics ain't as bad as people think.
 
daffington said:
Canon were always going to have a tricky intro into the mirrorless world -
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They’ve been in the mirrorless world for years (maybe not seriously enough).
daffington said:
firstly they're a bit too late to the party, secondly they have a core business that they don't really want to kill off in the sense of where their DSLRs and I'm sure they've also had to take into consideration the whole M range too and where their position in the market is.
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Oh too late to the party?

Then you seem to have remembered. ;)

As the market leader in mirrorless cameras I’d guess Canon wouldn’t recognise half the [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER] the internet spouts about them.

Could this camera have been better?
Using Canons existing known tech?
Not much is the unfortunate answer.

2 cars slots would have made it a pro camera, and it isn’t good enough for pro use.

They made what they could at the time, they’ll get better, but until one of their groundbreaking features kicks in, they’re playing catch up.

But not having the best sensors for the last 10 years hasn’t killed them off, I’m confident they’ll cope.
 
I don't care as an individual if there is 40 or 500 lenses in the line up neither does the wildlife and bird photographer. Thing I am looking for 3-4 lenses in the wide - short tele catagory where as the other guy is looking for medium to long long long teles. So as individuals a great big lineup is unimportant as long we can get what we want but as a population......... ..
 
RedRobin said:
....Alan, I think you are expecting everything to happen too quickly. If you stop and think about everything that is involved in developing such complex products and getting them ready enough to launch on the public, I think that both Canon and Nikon have done well but Canon have done slightly better than Nikon at this stage.

Some photographers keep saying that they think that Sony is miles ahead and offers better features but personally I find them too small, less tactile and less satisfactory ergonomically. Also, the lens range doesn't compare well with Canon's. It surprised me but a friend sold his Sony A7-3 and bought a Canon 5D-4 and much prefers it - But that's just another photographer's differing preferences.
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I don't think I'm expecting too much. A part of my job was CE approval which ok wasn't camera gear but I have seen what goes into bringing products including complex electronic products to market. Looking at the Sony line up I'm not talking about tactility or handling and to an extent these things are subjective, I'm talking more about things like frame rate, eye detect and all the rest of the more engineering physical things that are inside the camera.

I haven't criticised Canikons lens line up as I know it's day 1, look at how far Sony have come, they've got very few holes in their line up now. Neither handling or the lens line up are my complaints, my complaint is that they're behind on the cameras in some areas and it looks like they just haven't tried hard enough, but maybe they just don't have the tech... or they're hobbling to protect other products.

While we're talking handling... I had a Nikon SLR for something between 10 and 20 years and it was fine as apart from the increased bulk and weight were the Canon DSLR's I had for over 10 years. My A7 and Panasonic RF style digital cameras are also fine. I have no real problems with the handling of any of them.
 
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soeren said:
I don't care as an individual if there is 40 or 500 lenses in the line up neither does the wildlife and bird photographer. Thing I am looking for 3-4 lenses in the wide - short tele catagory where as the other guy is looking for medium to long long long teles. So as individuals a great big lineup is unimportant as long we can get what we want but as a population......... ..
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Ok what is your most used lens currently? Is that lens available on any of the canikon Mirrorless Mount? Lens say they are not available right now on those mounts, would you still choose those over another system that actually has the tool/lens available right off the bat?

End of the day these are tools right? and I have personally never heard of someone who choose a tool like a hammer because it has better ergonomics. They just choose a hammer that a shop sells and if that shop doesnt sell it, much like how a system does not provide you a tool/lens.

I like nice ergonmic camera's for sure but my priorities is more important then that and i can get use to a tools handling easily but i cant magically attach a lens that doesnt exist on my camera.

as the saying goes, a system is not just about the camera body right?
 
jonneymendoza said:
Ok what is your most used lens currently? Is that lens available on any of the canikon Mirrorless Mount? Lens say they are not available right now on those mounts, would you still choose those over another system that actually has the tool/lens available right off the bat?

End of the day these are tools right? and I have personally never heard of someone who choose a tool like a hammer because it has better ergonomics. They just choose a hammer that a shop sells and if that shop doesnt sell it, much like how a system does not provide you a tool/lens.

I like nice ergonmic camera's for sure but my priorities is more important then that and i can get use to a tools handling easily but i cant magically attach a lens that doesnt exist on my camera.

as the saying goes, a system is not just about the camera body right?
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I do prefer primes but could make do with a 24-105mm
My history is 24mm, 50mm and 105mm on nikon. 12mm 24mm and 60mm on A6000 and now a 10-24mm 18-55mm and a 35mm on the XT2. I have goal regarding lenses I want to have but I'm not that picky starting up as long as I can get roughly the right focallenghts
 
Phil V said:
They’ve been in the mirrorless world for years (maybe not seriously enough).

Oh too late to the party?

Then you seem to have remembered. ;)

As the market leader in mirrorless cameras I’d guess Canon wouldn’t recognise half the b****x the internet spouts about them.

Could this camera have been better?
Using Canons existing known tech?
Not much is the unfortunate answer.

2 cars slots would have made it a pro camera, and it isn’t good enough for pro use.

They made what they could at the time, they’ll get better, but until one of their groundbreaking features kicks in, they’re playing catch up.

But not having the best sensors for the last 10 years hasn’t killed them off, I’m confident they’ll cope.
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Canon market leader in mirrorless? Where?
 
jonneymendoza said:
Ok what is your most used lens currently? Is that lens available on any of the canikon Mirrorless Mount? Lens say they are not available right now on those mounts, would you still choose those over another system that actually has the tool/lens available right off the bat?

End of the day these are tools right? and I have personally never heard of someone who choose a tool like a hammer because it has better ergonomics. They just choose a hammer that a shop sells and if that shop doesnt sell it, much like how a system does not provide you a tool/lens.

I like nice ergonmic camera's for sure but my priorities is more important then that and i can get use to a tools handling easily but i cant magically attach a lens that doesnt exist on my camera.

as the saying goes, a system is not just about the camera body right?
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Sorry Jonny I had to post this,your post brought back happy memories

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Kp1z8EzZ5Hs&feature=youtu.be
 
HoppyUK said:
Agree. Looked at from Canon's market position re DSLRs and from a business perspective transitioning to mirrorless, the Canon R seems very well judged overall - specs, price, positioning and performance all make perfect sense. It's not for me, because I don't want a mirrorless 6DMk2, but they've left plenty of space above the EOS R for a couple more higher-spec models that'll be along pretty soon. I just wish I had the same feeling of confidence about Nikon.
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Hasn't Canon already said that they will bring two mirrorless models to the market within six months? One imagines the second will be higher spec......although I hate to think what the price will be.:eek:
 
It'll also be interesting to see if any higher spec model matches or exceeds what the competition, and in mirrorless that's Sony, offer. I don't know if Canon will have the A7RIII or the A9 in their sights both could be touch to match let alone exceed.
 
jonneymendoza said:
End of the day these are tools right? and I have personally never heard of someone who choose a tool like a hammer because it has better ergonomics. They just choose a hammer that a shop sells and if that shop doesnt sell it, much like how a system does not provide you a tool/lens.
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....Slightly off-topic but about the under-estimated importance of ergonomics : My hammers are all chosen, apart from appropriate weight for the job, for their ergonomics! So are my Japanese garden tools such as secateurs, shears, loppers, spade. Not solely for their ergonomics but ergo plays a very major part in my choice. Same applies to my cars.

So now you have heard of someone who does choose tools with better ergonomics in mind. :)
 
daffington said:
The 28-70mm f/2 has to be one of the most exciting zoom lenses released in the last few years for sure. Yes it's a hefty looking chap, and lofty in price too, but what a great lens this could be!
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I wonder how good the IS is on it ;)
 
meduk1 said:
So for someone with no baggage of existing lenses and brand commitment, what's the thoughts? I had been set on a Sony A7(r - maybe)III, but given Canons recent announcement I'm really tempted. The new 24-105 looks good, as does the body. Nothings perfect right now but with no commitments to Canon, Nikon or Sony I'm seriously considering the new R
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Think long and hard before you make your purchase, personally I would go with the Sony A7 III and some GM lenses ;)
 
RedRobin said:
....Slightly off-topic but about the under-estimated importance of ergonomics : My hammers are all chosen, apart from appropriate weight for the job, for their ergonomics!
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I was about to make a similar comment. In the 1970s I spent several years in a boatyard making wooden boats. All my tools, hammers included, were chosen for their "fit" - I had, I think, 5 hammers from a two pound lump hammer to a very small veneering hammer. Occasionally , when working away from my toolbox, I would borrow someone else's hammer and it would be awkward and inaccurate to use. Nightmare!
 
RedRobin said:
What's not to like?
:canon:
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Canon sensors.... from early reports there has been no progress on their sensor, it’s similar to the Canon 5D MK4 version in terms of ISO/DR abilities. If so the Sony A7 III has the advantage, not to mention the better speed / tracking in AF-C.
 
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soeren said:
I don't care as an individual if there is 40 or 500 lenses in the line up neither does the wildlife and bird photographer. Thing I am looking for 3-4 lenses in the wide - short tele catagory where as the other guy is looking for medium to long long long teles. So as individuals a great big lineup is unimportant as long we can get what we want but as a population......... ..
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....As a wildlife, including bird, photographer I beg to differ.

The extensive range of lenses, such as Canon's, offer photographers a wide choice for their individual needs and all within a cohesive system including bodies < In this case called EOS.

Even within the same focal lengths it is valuable that Canon offer different maximum aperture versions (known as faster lenses) and also different standards such as L lenses.

I won't bore anyone with a list of my Canon L lenses other than to say that I only have 6 but they cover from fisheye and macro to supertelephoto plus extenders and that I exclusively shoot wildlife.

The new Canon R mirrorless body is merely a first addition of many products to the EOS system - The future looks very promising and I have absolutely no reason to switch to Sony or Nikon (I used Nikon in the days of 35mm film) and I suggest that my Flickr pages demonstrate that I don't need to move from Canon.
 
Phil V said:
They’ve been in the mirrorless world for years (maybe not seriously enough).
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And this why they should have released something more competitive, they had past experience.
Apart from the new RF FF lens mount, how EOS R to the differ from the technology deployed in the last EOS M body?
 
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Riz_Guru said:
And this why they should have released something more competitive, they had past experience.
Apart from the new RF FF lens mount, how EOS R to the differ from the technology deployed in the last EOS M body?
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....:rolleyes: Do you honestly think that Canon are not going to offer all sorts of quality and feature competitive camera gear in both the near future and beyond? And all within a system which can be tailored to a skilled photographer's individual needs.

You are beginning to sound like a spoilt young kid who wants everything yesterday and nothing is good enough. I'm beginning to wonder how good your photography actually is - I have not seen or noticed any.
 
For a lot of people it doesn’t matter how good Sony is compared with Canon/Nikon in either mirrorless or compared to their DSLRs. For people with a relatively extensive system the cost to change is prohibitive. For me to change to Sony, with the closest equivalents to what I have now would cost £22000. If I sold all my Canon gear it wouldn’t even come close to that figure and I would drop from 2 bodies to one so no back up. It’s simply a non starter. To get someone like me to change Sony would have to offer lenses such as 400 f4/5.6 or 500 f5.6 to bring the cost down a bit and I can’t see them doing that.
 
RedRobin said:
....:rolleyes: Do you honestly think that Canon are not going to offer all sorts of quality and feature competitive camera gear in both the near future and beyond? And all within a system which can be tailored to a skilled photographer's individual needs.

You are beginning to sound like a spoilt young kid who wants everything yesterday and nothing is good enough. I'm beginning to wonder how good your photography actually is - I have not seen or noticed any.
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We can all use the “it’s coming in the future” statement for everything :)
They should have been more competitive now, not in 2...3..4..5 years time.

Regarding the spoilt young kid statement, only as much as you might be! ;) and it’s more wanting everything today, not yesterday lol
 
Riz_Guru said:
And this why they should have released something more competitive, they had past experience.
Apart from the new RF FF lens mount, how EOS R to the differ from the technology deployed in the last EOS M body?
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If you’d have read all my post, you wouldn’t have needed to ask.
Stop treating it like a sparring match and treat it like a discussion between adults :)
 
RedRobin said:
....:rolleyes: Do you honestly think that Canon are not going to offer all sorts of quality and feature competitive camera gear in both the near future and beyond? And all within a system which can be tailored to a skilled photographer's individual needs.

You are beginning to sound like a spoilt young kid who wants everything yesterday and nothing is good enough. I'm beginning to wonder how good your photography actually is - I have not seen or noticed any.
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Yes but you should see his cabinet ,eh Riz :D
 
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