Canon FF mirrorless...

Canon Bob said:
Believe me, you'll wish that you hadn't written that!
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Don't worry Bob, it's about as likely as my changing to Sony :D

ps Have you worked out how much it'd cost to swap to Sony? Any change from £100k? :eek:
 
HoppyUK said:
Don't worry Bob, it's about as likely as my changing to Sony :D

ps Have you worked out how much it'd cost to swap to Sony? Any change from £100k? :eek:
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:D better to swap now before prices of DSLR / EF lenses fall in the coming years.
 
dave_bass5 said:
Isnt this the same thing?

Canon aren't mis-selling the camera, its all in the specs. If someone wants sometime to work in a different it doesnt mean it should. Expending on a feature is obviously welcome though. I love using eye detection on my M50 so im definitely in the pro camp for this feature.

As far as a few months later, well who knows. it could be 6 months or more. Canon will have a very good reason for not implementing it at this time IMO.
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If you release a camera which has similar features as other cameras, eye AF, so many fps, whatever, then you normally expect the camera to work in the same way as the opposition. If they then have a load of clauses in there so that they don't work as expected, then that is not being genuine imho. And then if you say that some features will be improved at some point later down the line then to work as you would have expected in the first place, for me, that is not the same thing as adding features which were never mentioned at time of release. If I read that a camera had 8fps, then I would expect 8fps with Auto Focus and Auto Exposure, especially in a mirrorless camera in 2018. :rolleyes:

Nikon, afaik, did not say to prospective D5 buyers, here are the focusing options, and btw we will add another one in a couple of months. I don't think at any point during the release of the 7D did they say at any point that in the future a firmware update will give "improved continuous-shooting buffer depth (to 25 Raws, up from the original 15), customizable Auto ISO, control of audio recording level for video and the ability to re-process Raws and rate images in-camera. The update also enables the use of the GP-E2 GPS module".

If I read that a camera had eye AF I would have expected it to work in a similar way, though maybe not as well, as Sony, not 'we have eye AF, (but not in continuous focus, and not in a burst mode)'. Yes, the manufacturer may say somewhere that this is limited to this, and that is limited to that, but it is the headline which has got the attention.

You may be quite happy with that, but I expect features to work as expected without too many caveats buried low down in the spec sheet. Imho both the Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras have been guilty of too much of that with these releases. Again, you may have a different view, and that is of course fine. :)
 
redhed17 said:
If you release a camera which has similar features as other cameras, eye AF, so many fps, whatever, then you normally expect the camera to work in the same way as the opposition. If they then have a load of clauses in there so that they don't work as expected, then that is not being genuine imho. And then if you say that some features will be improved at some point later down the line then to work as you would have expected in the first place, for me, that is not the same thing as adding features which were never mentioned at time of release. If I read that a camera had 8fps, then I would expect 8fps with Auto Focus and Auto Exposure, especially in a mirrorless camera in 2018. :rolleyes:

Nikon, afaik, did not say to prospective D5 buyers, here are the focusing options, and btw we will add another one in a couple of months. I don't think at any point during the release of the 7D did they say at any point that in the future a firmware update will give "improved continuous-shooting buffer depth (to 25 Raws, up from the original 15), customizable Auto ISO, control of audio recording level for video and the ability to re-process Raws and rate images in-camera. The update also enables the use of the GP-E2 GPS module".

If I read that a camera had eye AF I would have expected it to work in a similar way, though maybe not as well, as Sony, not 'we have eye AF, (but not in continuous focus, and not in a burst mode)'. Yes, the manufacturer may say somewhere that this is limited to this, and that is limited to that, but it is the headline which has got the attention.

You may be quite happy with that, but I expect features to work as expected without too many caveats buried low down in the spec sheet. Imho both the Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras have been guilty of too much of that with these releases. Again, you may have a different view, and that is of course fine. :)
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It's ok, Canon fanboi's will eat the marketing hype and buy the Canon R :D It will sell well due to the Canon brand name.
 
Firmware updates has always been part of Canons philosophy. To get improvements or bug fixes via firmware is par for the course. I don’t care whether they say we will do it in a few months or they just come out with it and I don’t feel misled by them in any way.

Everyone advertises headline specs and tries to hide away anything that doesn’t look as good. Canon isn’t alone in doing that.
 
Gaz J said:
Firmware updates has always been part of Canons philosophy. To get improvements or bug fixes via firmware is par for the course. I don’t care whether they say we will do it in a few months or they just come out with it and I don’t feel misled by them in any way.

Everyone advertises headline specs and tries to hide away anything that doesn’t look as good. Canon isn’t alone in doing that.
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Never said they were, I said Nikon have done something very similar with the 'Zed's' ;) but we are talking about the Canon R here, and that seems to have a few more caveats than normal imho. And in some cases, it is not insignificant things. :rolleyes:

I hope any buyers don't feel they will have been misled in any way too. :)
 
HoppyUK said:
Seems like you don't need to buy anything to lose your sanity around these parts. Just reading a press release is enough :D
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I'm not in danger of losing my sanity just yet although the "bewildometer" is nudging the red zone. I don't envisage it toppling the 1Dx2 off its perch and equally it's unlikley to appeal to those folk wandering into Curry's on a Saturday afternoon. I see it as a low to middle market product offering but having a middle to higher end market system price. "Way back when", Canon released top end and bottom end and then filled in the gaps when things warmed up.
 
redhed17 said:
I think this is a pretty good video going into a bit more detail of using the camera.

View: https://youtu.be/tU2xjMMbPkc
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Finally got around to watch this video, looks like a pretty good camera after all as long as you don't need a lot of FPS or continuous silent shooting. The adapter looks to work a lot better than Nikon's implementation looking at Jared's review on the Z7.
 
Riz_Guru said:
It's ok, Canon fanboi's will eat the marketing hype and buy the Canon R :D It will sell well due to the Canon brand name.
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....I shan't be buying this particular Canon R body because it doesn't satisfy my needs but I expect that I will one day buy a yet-to-be-released R body when one does meet my needs. Due to the Canon name I shall have a lot of confidence in my purchase because Canon is a brand I have grown to trust over many years, in fact decades.

However, this first Canon R body may suit some photographers very well indeed.

But regardless of which brand, no camera gear is ever perfect - Fundamentally because we each have a myriad of individual needs and preferences, hence why companies such as Canon and Nikon and others build and offer a system which offers such a variety to choose from < If you are a photographer you will already know and understand this.

Some of us (not myself) may be disappointed that we can't have it all now on demand but by releasing their first EOS FF mirrorless camera now, Canon are telling us all that they are developing the technology seriously and doing so in such a way that their existing users are not let down in the longer term.

Rival Sony's mirrorless technology may be a significant distance ahead but there is much more to choosing a camera than just having the very latest technology.

Note that as a Canon so-called fanboy I do not find it necessary to criticise other photographer's preference for Sony, or Nikon, or Olympus, or other brands.

:)
 
RedRobin said:
....I shan't be buying this particular Canon R body because it doesn't satisfy my needs but I expect that I will one day buy a yet-to-be-released R body when one does meet my needs. Due to the Canon name I shall have a lot of confidence in my purchase because Canon is a brand I have grown to trust over many years, in fact decades.

However, this first Canon R body may suit some photographers very well indeed.

But regardless of which brand, no camera gear is ever perfect - Fundamentally because we each have a myriad of individual needs and preferences, hence why companies such as Canon and Nikon and others build and offer a system which offers such a variety to choose from < If you are a photographer you will already know and understand this.

Some of us (not myself) may be disappointed that we can't have it all now on demand but by releasing their first EOS FF mirrorless camera now, Canon are telling us all that they are developing the technology seriously and doing so in such a way that their existing users are not let down in the longer term.

Rival Sony's mirrorless technology may be a significant distance ahead but there is much more to choosing a camera than just having the very latest technology.

Note that as a Canon so-called fanboy I do not find it necessary to criticise other photographer's preference for Sony, or Nikon, or Olympus, or other brands.

:)
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All great points, I might bash Nikon & Canon, Sony isn’t perfect either and if Nikon release a D5 type mirrorless body, I could easily switch [emoji1] [emoji33]
 
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redhed17 said:
If you release a camera which has similar features as other cameras, eye AF, so many fps, whatever, then you normally expect the camera to work in the same way as the opposition. If they then have a load of clauses in there so that they don't work as expected, then that is not being genuine imho. And then if you say that some features will be improved at some point later down the line then to work as you would have expected in the first place, for me, that is not the same thing as adding features which were never mentioned at time of release. If I read that a camera had 8fps, then I would expect 8fps with Auto Focus and Auto Exposure, especially in a mirrorless camera in 2018. :rolleyes:

Nikon, afaik, did not say to prospective D5 buyers, here are the focusing options, and btw we will add another one in a couple of months. I don't think at any point during the release of the 7D did they say at any point that in the future a firmware update will give "improved continuous-shooting buffer depth (to 25 Raws, up from the original 15), customizable Auto ISO, control of audio recording level for video and the ability to re-process Raws and rate images in-camera. The update also enables the use of the GP-E2 GPS module".

If I read that a camera had eye AF I would have expected it to work in a similar way, though maybe not as well, as Sony, not 'we have eye AF, (but not in continuous focus, and not in a burst mode)'. Yes, the manufacturer may say somewhere that this is limited to this, and that is limited to that, but it is the headline which has got the attention.

You may be quite happy with that, but I expect features to work as expected without too many caveats buried low down in the spec sheet. Imho both the Canon and Nikon mirrorless cameras have been guilty of too much of that with these releases. Again, you may have a different view, and that is of course fine. :)
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I was excited too see the FPS from both Nikon and Canon until I realised how limited it was.

Of course this is not an issue for everyone but sadly for people who buy cameras on specs they may not realise until they go to shoot something moving expecting 12fps of continuous AF.
 
HoppyUK said:
Same old, same old. It's a new camera, not the second coming. Enough already.
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Hear, hear! I'm getting real bored of all the previews now. It's like we've all forgotten how to just pick up a camera and go shoot! Now it's got to be weeks of mindless debating and second guessing lumps of gear.
 
A really thorough video about the Canon EOS R - Nearly 40 minutes long but with a quick index.

I think this full walkthrough demonstrates and reinforces how good the more 'professional' spec mirrorless Canon R bodies are likely to be as well as showing this first body's strengths and weaknesses.

So even if, like myself, you are not interested in buying this particular body, the walkthrough is very informative indeed about what is coming - Okay, I know we can only speculate because it's not official Canon info but I reckon we can gain a pretty accurate insight from watching this walkthrough video.

It has some of the same features as the small EOS M5 and I can see myself either replacing my M5 or 7D-2 (or both) with a future higher spec EOS R-system body. I want fps to at least match my 1DX-2 and a truly silent shutter.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ko_3vgao7Ic&frags=pl%2Cwn
 
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Cagey75 said:
Hear, hear! I'm getting real bored of all the previews now. It's like we've all forgotten how to just pick up a camera and go shoot! Now it's got to be weeks of mindless debating and second guessing lumps of gear.
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Easy way to avoid it all if it is getting on your nerves. [emoji6]

I think there may be more in depth reviews pretty quickly as I saw a video by a DSLR video shooter last night saying that he was surprisingly given an R camera by Canon for 6 weeks to use. I assume they have done the same with Photographer's and review sites too.
 
redhed17 said:
I think there may be more in depth reviews pretty quickly as I saw a video by a DSLR video shooter last night saying that he was surprisingly given an R camera by Canon for 6 weeks to use.

I assume they have done the same with Photographer's and review sites too.
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....Indeed Canon have given out a package of R gear to be returned after 6 weeks.

Meanwhile, if you are interested in what the future EOS R-system is (unofficially) likely to offer, watch the walkthrough video I posted in Reply #1186.
 
JJ! said:
I was excited too see the FPS from both Nikon and Canon until I realised how limited it was.

Of course this is not an issue for everyone but sadly for people who buy cameras on specs they may not realise until they go to shoot something moving expecting 12fps of continuous AF.
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If you drop £2500 plus on a camera without doing some thorough research into what it can and cannot do and end up with something unsuitable then it’s your fault not the camera manufacturers.

I can’t believe that people can buy cameras based on headline specs and just take them as gospel.
 
redhed17 said:
Easy way to avoid it all if it is getting on your nerves. [emoji6]

I think there may be more in depth reviews pretty quickly as I saw a video by a DSLR video shooter last night saying that he was surprisingly given an R camera by Canon for 6 weeks to use. I assume they have done the same with Photographer's and review sites too.
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It's NOT easy avoid, that's the point! It's ALL that seems to be discussed on here lately for one, I open YT and I'm flooded with suggestions to watch this , that or the other preview, half of them don't even have the gear they're ranting about. The the usual mouths on here who can't resist jumping on every other post, god forbid you'd freely express yourself :rolleyes:
 
RedRobin said:
It has some of the same features as the small EOS M5 and I can see myself either replacing my M5 or 7D-2 (or both) with a future higher spec EOS R-system body. I want fps to at least match my 1DX-2 and a truly silent shutter.
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I seriously doubt Canon will have a genuinely usable silent shutter like the Sony RS sensor anytime soon, they need to bump up their current sensors first when it comes to ISO/DR abilities :)
Have you tested the Sony A9, black-out free shooting at 20 fps is pretty amazing :D
 
Riz_Guru said:
I seriously doubt Canon will have a genuinely usable silent shutter like the Sony RS sensor anytime soon, they need to bump up their current sensors first when it comes to ISO/DR abilities :)

Have you tested the Sony A9, black-out free shooting at 20 fps is pretty amazing :D
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....I haven't and it sounds very attractive indeed. However, there are many reasons which everyone here is bored of hearing about why I, and others, intend to stay with Canon.

Black-out free shooting is very strange to experience at first but can be got used to very quickly and then black-out bodies will seem strange.

I don't think I would want more than 20 fps for stills and I don't shoot video at all. 20 fps on small birds in flight would expand the potential for great pictures.

Now that Canon and Nikon have entered the arena the introduction of mirrorless larger camera systems looks very exciting indeed and competition between all the manufacturers can only be a good thing for photographers.
 
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Competition isn't always a good thing for manufacturers. Bringing out all of those quick iterations of camera bodies, new tech and new lenses is an expensive process and I can imagine Nikon feeling the strain and perhaps even going pop.
 
woof woof said:
Competition isn't always a good thing for manufacturers. Bringing out all of those quick iterations of camera bodies, new tech and new lenses is an expensive process and I can imagine Nikon feeling the strain and perhaps even going pop.
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Competition is always good as it forces the likes of canon to release a body full of specs that rival others...
 
Gaz J said:
If you drop £2500 plus on a camera without doing some thorough research into what it can and cannot do and end up with something unsuitable then it’s your fault not the camera manufacturers.

I can’t believe that people can buy cameras based on headline specs and just take them as gospel.
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Fair enough.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Competition is always good as it forces the likes of canon to release a body full of specs that rival others...
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And when everyone else goes bust and Canon (or Sony) are the only ones left they'll introduce new tech once every millennium and charge what they want :D

I think there has to be a balance. Few companies could do what Sony has recently with such fast introduction of new generation bodies and new lenses and if the competition and the pace of development is too fierce we may end up with less competition. We've already seen Samsung disappear from the market and others may as well be absent (Pentax, Richo.) I think it's just best to maybe be careful what we wish for.
 
woof woof said:
And when everyone else goes bust and Canon (or Sony) are the only ones left they'll introduce new tech once every millennium and charge what they want :D

I think there has to be a balance. Few companies could do what Sony has recently with such fast introduction of new generation bodies and new lenses and if the competition and the pace of development is too fierce we may end up with less competition. We've already seen Samsung disappear from the market and others may as well be absent (Pentax, Richo.) I think it's just best to maybe be careful what we wish for.
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That's exactly what happened in the pre existing dslr land. And I hope canikon don't dominate again
 
RedRobin said:
....Hang on in there! This first Canon EOS R body and its lenses and adapters are only a first step and, in my opinion, a very practical and inspiring first step.

If you already use various bodies and lenses in the EOS system, then have some faith in Canon. The future with them looks very promising - Rome wasn't built in a day.
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Yep you are right Rome was not built in a day and Canon should be able to produce a great range of mirrorless cameras. I am not sure I can just keep waiting for canon's marketing strategy to stop starving lower / mid range models to protect higher end models or its cine cameras. Canon for me were innovative and forward thinking, however in the last 10 years they just have stopped and Sony has stepped forward from the big two with some great cameras. I own a canon DSLR I have a good selection of canon glass to use plus a Sony NEX5R which I use a Sigma MC-11 adaptor. The results IQ wise are really good from the canon L glass on NEX5R via the MC-11
I have been waiting for years for EOS 7Diii to replace me ageing Eos 7D, however again this 7Diii has just not materialised so I went out a purchased used 7Dii

Raymond Lin said:
Just want to comment on the Low Pass filter, don't let that stop you as the A7III has one and that camera is VERY sharp.
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Indeed the A7iii does have an AA filter, however why is the IQ on sony beter than the canon !
I have seen lower end Nikon models get better IQ than my EOS 7D original some years ago. It it widely known that the D850 and D500 produce some great IQ compared to EOS 7Di / ii and 5DIV !

I would like to stay with canon, however the release of the A6700 or A7000 may help me decide what to spend my money on.
Come on Canon I am still rooting for you !
 
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