Canon announces EOS 7D ***Official Discussion thread***

desantnik said:
1D MkIII is close enough to justify the improved performance of the 1D (which is crazily good if you have never tried one).
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I wish. 7d £1399 preordered above from Stuart. I reckon even if I slept with him (I've seen the way he looks at me :love:) he couldn't get me a 1d body for under £2000 which is a fairly massive gap!

Hopefully news of the 1d MKIV will help MKIII prices.
 
Ben May said:
I was hoping it was going to be a full frame sensor to compete price wise with the D700 but it wasn't I guess they'd loose 5D Mark 2 sales, not enough of a difference between this and the 50D really. Unless you like the HD functionality.
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2nd hand 5D?

That's the point. Some people want Canon to make a D700 and some a D300. They've picked one, which will suit some people and not others... I don't see them doing a lower spec FF camera though - doesn't seem to be the way they are headed.
 
razor777 said:
Out of interest are we sure its AF limit is f/5.6 though?

Spec sheet indicates that AF range is EV -0.5 to +18 which equates to f/8.0 (4000) ?
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Go to page 1 on here and look thread no.6 and go to Canon's site scroll to bottom of page and download "EOS7D technologies explained" and read
"19 point cross-type AF system etc."
It explains it all there, not mentioned on "spec" page though !
C
 
pre-order £1699 on Jessops I notice, or £2099 with 18-135mm (?) lens.
 
grumpybadger said:
2nd hand 5D?

That's the point. Some people want Canon to make a D700 and some a D300. They've picked one, which will suit some people and not others... I don't see them doing a lower spec FF camera though - doesn't seem to be the way they are headed.
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It seems FF is reserved for the high end cameras...at least for a while.
 
people say that you need good glass with the 50d..

you'll need L glass on the 7d!

It's a shame that it's still 1.6x, it'd be nice if it was made slightly less, like the 1.5x like the nikon, or something less croppy. Especially as it's 18Mpx.

Noise is very impressive for such small pixels, but i'd still have a 1d3 instead. They'll be cheaper by the time the 7d is out!

Oh, and i'm presuming it#s not a replacement for the 50d? since the 7d is a giant leap up.
 
Will the metering move to whatever focus point selected? Or is it still in the center?
 
On this AF thing at f/5.6 max, using extenders etc, and picking up on a point CT made on the previous page...

The only reason you use an extender is to get more reach. The extender enlarges the centre of the lens' image, stretching resolution to the max, and adds its own optical shortcomings to the mix. The advantage over cropping is that it retains the same number of pixels.

But if you have a lot more pixels to start with, which the 7D obviously has, you can crop quite heavily and still have plenty of pixels left. Plus you don't have the optical flaws of the extender taking their toll. And you retain good AF performance.

So, if you were to compare a 7D image cropped without an extender, against an uncropped Nikon D300 shot with one... well, I think the 7D might just edge that one. And it would be in focus ;)
 
Ant said:
Oh, and i'm presuming it#s not a replacement for the 50d? since the 7d is a giant leap up.
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Apart from the jump in features, look at the pricing.

xxD series retails for around £700/£800, this is £1600 rrp and at the moment £1400 retail. It is twice the price of the xxD series, logic tells you its not a replacement for the 50D, the price hike is simply too great. Besides, the xxD series made Canon a lot of money, why would they want to scrap that? Otherwise you'll end up with people with the 500D upgrading to the 7D with nothing under £1k in between.......
 
Raymond Lin said:
Apart from the jump in features, look at the pricing.

xxD series retails for around £700/£800, this is £1600 rrp and at the moment £1400 retail. It is twice the price of the xxD series, logic tells you its not a replacement for the 50D, the price hike is simply too great. Besides, the xxD series made Canon a lot of money, why would they want to scrap that? Otherwise you'll end up with people with the 500D upgrading to the 7D with nothing under £1k in between.......
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Canon has said that the 50D will continue in production. 7D fills a new market position, basically a fully pro-spec APS-C camera and a direct rival to the Nikon D300 which I think is the only other camera to address this sector. Nikon would seem to have gone for lower resolution and lower noise, against Canon's super res solution as a brand proposition.

My initial reaction is that I prefer the Nikon approach, but if Canon has made a genuine step forward with noise handling, and it has to be said that early indications are promising, then maybe we can have both? Certainly, if you look back over the last few years at what was possible in the resolution vs noise equation, both have risen together pretty relentlessly.

That has been the basic premise behind my own belief that APS-C is the format to go for long term and that eventually full frame will be marginalised in the same way that medium format film cameras were always a specialist product - mega quality but actually more than most people ever need, plus big and heavy, lenses with less range, and very expensive. Law of diminishing returns etc.

To my mind, what Canon has done with this camera is acknowledge that APS-C is capable of being much more than just a cheap amateur format, for those that can't afford full frame. And if you believe there is any truth in that line of thinking, Canon has just put the skids under full frame as the best solution for most people (as it already is for long lens wildlife). As an example, earlier this year I looked at jacking in my 40D and EF-S lenses and getting hitched with a Nikon D700 outfit; I'm glad I didn't :)
 
Well I've pre-ordered Hoppy - it's no good trying to convert the non believers mate. :cool:
 
HoppyUK said:
That has been the basic premise behind my own belief that APS-C is the format to go for long term and that eventually full frame will be marginalised in the same way that medium format film cameras were always a specialist product
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Whilst I agree with the statement that APS-C is here to stay, I do not agree that FF will be marginalised the same way Medium Format has done. Basically for the reason that you can get a secnodhand 5D for £800. Not to mention the whole EOS system started with 35mm, the lenses (all the L Glass) were built around the 35mm format. To marginalise it makes no sense, not marketing nor economics.

I am sure if Canon can make a FF camera for £500, they would. It'll knock every other manufacturer out of the game, but the fact is that APS-C is a lot cheaper to produce, and the yield for FF is lower than APS-C, hence the price will always be higher. They might well be able to produce a cheap FF camera, but the profit margin will be so small, it won't make any marketing sense, and since the public has accepted the fact that APS-C is almost a standard format, specially those never even seen a roll of 35mm film. They don't know what they missed out on from FF in the first place and they won't care.

No doubt Canon will keep the FF at a price bracket in the pro sector, and there is no reason to release a FF camera in the XXD series that is for certain. As the 5D is the cut down version of the 1Ds, and 7D is the cut down version fo the 1D.
 
I haven't seen this link put up yet. Someone playing with a camera at what seems to me to be a German tradeshow?
http://www.viddler.com/explore/es_engadget/videos/68/

Comming from an 400d background, I am not sure how much of it is new. The focal groups look to be useful, the viewfinder shot misses the bit I am interested in (I find it difficult to see the 400d metering bars when looking through the viewfinder)
It also has a clip of the camera in burst mode. Looks to me like it did around 15 shots, quick pause (1/4s?) then another 8
 
Much as I would love to try one there is no way I will be getting my grubby little mitts on on in the near future!
Next year sometime I was aiming at getting a secondhand 1DMkIII but if this one turns out to be really good it may be a lighter weight option - will worry about the decision later when the pennies are there to be spent :lol:
 
Raymond Lin said:
...Otherwise you'll end up with people with the 500D upgrading to the 7D with nothing under £1k in between.......
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I was planning to make a jump from my trusty yet tired old 350D (I still love it to bits) to the ff 5D...but the 7D is an interesting option for me now and got me thinking if I really do need a FF after all?

I'll have to think about it for another couple of months or so....which also gives me time to see what 7D users really think of it.

Decisions, decisions......:thinking:
 
I think the only thing making this really hard anymore is the fact I LOVE bokeh, and FF produce better bokeh due to using longer focal lengths for the same framing.

Oh Canon. Why couldn't it have been a 1.3 crop, a true mini 1d.
 
It won't be a 1.3 crop because thats a more expensive sensor... would probably add another 200 quid to the price... edging closer to the 1D MkIII and then definitely not a viable proposition....
 
I think this camera is intended to fill the top end amateur level before the 5DMK2 the start of the professional level, all full frame sensor. All the professional lenses are EF lenses usually L & IS if warranted, rather than EF-S which are for the cropped sensor. Using EF lenses on a cropped sensor does not do what it says on the wrapper but rather an adaptation of due to the cropping effect of the sensor.

Mike
 
I am planning on making the leap from 400d to 7d.
It has been a toss-up between the 7d or 50d.
My justification for being an 'early adopter' is that I would like to use a better camera for an event comming up soon, and although there is a ~£500 difference at the moment between the 50d and the 7d, and probably a £300 difference to where the 7d is going to be at Christmas, it would cost me around £250 to hire a camera for this period.
 
jon- said:
I think the only thing making this really hard anymore is the fact I LOVE bokeh, and FF produce better bokeh due to using longer focal lengths for the same framing.

Oh Canon. Why couldn't it have been a 1.3 crop, a true mini 1d.
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Other problem would probably be fitting in a flash around the larger pentaprism.

MKD said:
I think this camera is intended to fill the top end amateur level before the 5DMK2 the start of the professional level, all full frame sensor. All the professional lenses are EF lenses usually L & IS if warranted, rather than EF-S which are for the cropped sensor. Using EF lenses on a cropped sensor does not do what it says on the wrapper but rather an adaptation of due to the cropping effect of the sensor.

Mike
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Really don't think so. Pro level is 1D/1Ds

High end amateur/low end pro is 7D/5DII

Then you're into the realms of the 50D and below.

There are an awful lot of cropped cameras used on EF lenses and especially L lenses. My 7D is being bought to go onto a 500 f/4L which is unquestionably a pro spec lens.

It's really easy to get hung up on a single factor like sensor size and then, I think, you miss the point of the 7D:

Better AF
Better metering
Weather sealing
etc
 
jon- said:
I think the only thing making this really hard anymore is the fact I LOVE bokeh, and FF produce better bokeh due to using longer focal lengths for the same framing.

Oh Canon. Why couldn't it have been a 1.3 crop, a true mini 1d.
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How much flippin bokeh do you need? :eek: The difference in depth of field between full frame and 1.6x crop is 1.28 stops (f/number x crop factor) - significant, but not massive. The difference between 1.6x crop and 1.3x is half that - roughly half a stop, less than two clicks on the dial.

And if you always shoot at the kind of apertures for DoF that cannot be obtained with crop format, then your lenses are not going to deliver anything like the sharpness that full frame is capable of giving.

Having said that, I think you have a point but there is more to it than bokeh. Full frame has a certain smooth creamyness that you just don't get with smaller formats. It's quite subtle and generally only really noticeable in large prints, but when you do get a good big un next to an equally large one from a crop camera (enlarged more, sharpened more, saturation pumped up and noise smoothed etc etc) then it's not hard to tell which is which ;)

There is an explanation for this, something to do with the way the MTF curves from the lens, sensor, printer, paper and so on all cascade together. It is lovely when you see it, just a gorgeous richness, wonderful in landscapes and still life etc, but I wouldn't call it bokeh.
 
There are now two tiers of pro level cameras.

1Ds3 and 1D3
and below that
5D2 and 7D

As with the 1Ds3 and 1D3, both the 5D2 and 7D are aimed at specific photographers needs.
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Surely the 1DS MKIII is with 5DmkII and 1D MKIII is with 7D... If i understand correctly
 
I like the idea of the high resolution of the 7D being used as a pseudo teleconverter where you simply crop (hoping the 7D has the devil in the detail ;) ) to get the same quality picture equivalent to a lower resolution camera with same sensor and teleconverter.
 
MKD said:
The lens may be called that, but it will not be that on a 7D.
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I think what you're driving at is the crop factor, ie 1.6x, so the field of view is reduced to the equivalent of 800mm on full frame. Depth of field also changes and that will change f/4 to give the equivalent DoF as f/6.3.

But it is still a 500mm f/4 lens ;)
 
What is the definition of DoF? Depth of Field.
The total distance between the foremost object which is in focus, to the furthest object which is in focus?

Why does this change for a crop camera? The sensor is still the same distance from the focal point? Only the field of view changes because there isn't an extra 'band' of pixels around the sensor making it full-frame?
 
coldpenguin said:
What is the definition of DoF? Depth of Field.
The total distance between the foremost object which is in focus, to the furthest object which is in focus?

Why does this change for a crop camera? The sensor is still the same distance from the focal point? Only the field of view changes because there isn't an extra 'band' of pixels around the sensor making it full-frame?
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DoF changes with lots of things, principally image size (magnification) and f/number. Format size has a big bearing on magnification. Distance to the focal plane does not ;)

If you check out www.dofmaster.com you will see that you have to input f/number and also three factors affecting magnification - focal length, distance and format. Basically they all affect 'magnification'.
 
andrewc said:
There are now two tiers of pro level cameras.

1Ds3 and 1D3
and below that
5D2 and 7D

As with the 1Ds3 and 1D3, both the 5D2 and 7D are aimed at specific photographers needs.
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This makes sense.. an ideal semi-pro setup might be the 5D mk II and 7D. One for ultimate IQ for weddings, landscapes etc., the other with improved focusing and crop factor for longer effective focal length for sport, wildlife etc.

A.
 
grumpybadger said:
Yes but you move further away to get the same framing.
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Hmm, that would be my problem then. I am thinking birding, where (in many cases) you can't get close enough. Thus the extra 'reach' added by a crop camera doesn't effect the DoF, only the FoV. There shouldn't be any difference in two shots taken with the 7d, and 5d, from the same place, with the same lens, if the 5d is later cropped to include the same frame?
Perceived DoF may change on the larger image, but if the lens is held in the same place, the size of the sensor (assuming that this distance to the focal point of the lens doesn't change), shouldn't matter.
The sensor could be thought of as a projector screen at this point, just because you roll it down further, doesn't change the picture? Something else must be going on here, rather than just changing the size of the sensor. They must be moving it closer to the mount at the same time.
 
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