Canon announces EOS 7D ***Official Discussion thread***

On another forum I read Canon questioned 5000 togs, a majority of whom said they wanted video ...I don't and neither do many amateur togs I know, so why not two versions 7Dv and 7D ..how much does the video add to the price?? This could be a huge seller without the video IMHO.
 
Video in DSLRs in inevitable now and it's really no different to the video function on your compact camera or your mobile phone which you don't have to use. Apart from a brief play I don't use either. Others will appreciate the video ability. :shrug:
 
pauld said:
On another forum I read Canon questioned 5000 togs, a majority of whom said they wanted video ...I don't and neither do many amateur togs I know, so why not two versions 7Dv and 7D ..how much does the video add to the price?? This could be a huge seller without the video IMHO.
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Not to go into the cost of running 2 production line for 1 camera....which will drive the cost up.

If the video adds like £100 to the price, would you still go for the cheaper one? And think of resale value, I wouldn't think a 7D with video would go for much more than one without, which brings me to the point. If you have a choice of 2 cameras at the same price (on the 2nd hand market), one with more features, which would you choose? So it takes you to when buying it new, would you get one with less features knowing it'll be less desirable when you come to sell it?

It takes me back to the Canon EOS30, there were 2 versions, one with eye control, the price difference was like £30 (about 7% of the camera), one without. Guess which one most people went for, even if they never used it.
 
jon- said:
but a 100-400 is 5.6 at the long end so 1.4x or 2x and you've lost AF.
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AF would not be lost by the 1.4x. The lens is based on max aperture so as it's f4.5 you would still get AF working with the 1.4x (even though it's f8 at the long end)

Obviously it would not work with the 2x without some modification.
 
This could be a huge seller without the video IMHO
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I don't quite understand the logic behind removing a feature to sell more. Are some of you that adverse to video that you'd rather have a new model so you don't need to look at a button?
 
edbarton said:
I don't quite understand the logic behind removing a feature to sell more. Are some of you that adverse to video that you'd rather have a new model so you don't need to look at a button?
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I personally think its a kind of SLR snobbery, but using costs as an excuse to mask the reason. Truth is, no one knows for certain how much it costs to implment video, add a feature that they put into £100 compact where the software btw, exists already for their HD camcorder type. So...the R&D is done for HD video, the sensor can clearly do it, LiveView is already an existing feature. What cost are are there that drives it up to a point where people are complaining? the 3 little dot on the front and the mic inside and the extra few line of code in the menu for video?

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. :lol:
 
EOS_JD said:
AF would not be lost by the 1.4x. The lens is based on max aperture so as it's f4.5 you would still get AF working with the 1.4x (even though it's f8 at the long end)
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Logical as I admit that sounds, it's unfortunately not the case. The 100-400L wont AF with the 1.4X TC on either of my 50D bodies, and wouldn't previously on the 40D or 20D either. It appears that the AF function is governed by the smallest actual aperture of the lens at full zoom regardless of if you use it at a shorter zoom length.

You can of course use the 1.4X TC with a 1 Series body and it will AF, whereas with a 2X TC you'd have to manually focus.
 
Me is thinking a 7D is a good upgrade from my 450D :) time to search for those pennies!
 
Raymond Lin said:
I personally think its a kind of SLR snobbery, but using costs as an excuse to mask the reason. Truth is, no one knows for certain how much it costs to implment video, add a feature that they put into £100 compact where the software btw, exists already for their HD camcorder type. So...the R&D is done for HD video, the sensor can clearly do it, LiveView is already an existing feature. What cost are are there that drives it up to a point where people are complaining? the 3 little dot on the front and the mic inside and the extra few line of code in the menu for video?

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. :lol:
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COuldn't agree more. Also think people are blinkered if they don't see this as the next big step in photography (over a number of years) in the same way as colour, digital, 35mm etc were in their time
 
EOS_JD said:
AF would not be lost by the 1.4x. The lens is based on max aperture so as it's f4.5 you would still get AF working with the 1.4x (even though it's f8 at the long end)

Obviously it would not work with the 2x without some modification.
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Is that true? If so, then the 400d should work OK without needing to tape contacts on the 100-400.
I always assumed it was max aperture at the focal length
 
It is the max aperture at the focal length, but even at 100mm the max aperture is only f/4.5 and a 1.4X teleconverter would push that the f/6.3, which is obviously beyond f/5.6. You need to start out at f/4 or faster if you want to add a 1.4X teleconverter on any body other than a 1 series. Otherwise you're into the taping pins scenario, crossing fingers and hoping for the best.
 
it's definately looking good - hopefully see more reviews on it but pretty much think i'll get one after xmas :)

drew
 
CT said:
Logical as I admit that sounds, it's unfortunately not the case. The 100-400L wont AF with the 1.4X TC on either of my 50D bodies, and wouldn't previously on the 40D or 20D either. It appears that the AF function is governed by the smallest actual aperture of the lens at full zoom regardless of if you use it at a shorter zoom length.

You can of course use the 1.4X TC with a 1 Series body and it will AF, whereas with a 2X TC you'd have to manually focus.
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That's interesting CT. Have you tried taping the pins? Of course if you do not, Canons switch out the AF beyond f/5.6. With my 100-400 4.5-5.6, taped up Kenko on 40D, it will AF at the short end but packs up completely at 400mm. Well actually, it tries but is useless.

I have heard a few people have had trouble with the 40D in this respect, but that other cameras were better. So turning to my 350D, I tried that and it is indeed much better. Very, very far from perfect, but possibly just maybe usable.

Which makes me think that f/5.6 is a somewhat arbitary cut-off point and partly camera dependent. Indeed, some Sigmas and Tamrons go to f/6.3 and appear to work, albeit slowly and possibly not very reliably.

Given the rather special new AF in the 7D, I wonder if taping the pins might offer up a bit of a nice surprise with an extender?
 
Never really paid much interest to the 7D and only recently started to look at the specs. Although I have always been hungering after FF, for no reason apart from quality, the 7D seems to be the perfect camera for me at the moment.

I can keep all my lenses, including the 10-20 Sigma which is the only one that wouldn't work on FF, and also the increased reach I like with the 1.6 crop sensor. It has (by the sounds of it) a great AF system and the sensor/ISO quality to back it up.

I don't think the price is too bad either at a quoted £1,300(?) from Digital Depot.


DB
 
HoppyUK said:
That's interesting CT. Have you tried taping the pins? ?
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I have tried the tape trick Hoppy, I'm afraid it doesn't work for me. Well ...to be more accurate it just hunts back and forth without gaining focus lock. :shrug:
 
With my 400d, and a tamron 1.4tc, the 100-400 L IS both focuses (reasonably fast on a lit subject), and has IS (which according to the manual would not work with a TC).

Pity it doesn't with the 50d, hope it still does with the 7d
 
grumpybadger said:
I'm with you Cedric. For me, I think the "big step" cameras in Canon's history were:

1D - first "high speed" DSLR
10D - first "affordable" DSLR
1Ds - first "full frame" DSLR
5D - first "affordable full frame" DSLR
7D - first "affordable high speed" DSLR

All the various Mk xx, are just iterations of a step change.
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I'm waiting for the first "affordable full frame high speed" DSLR bring on the 1DIVs :naughty:
 
I will be getting the 7d, think its going to be a good upgrade from my 40d. :thumbs:
 
CT said:
Logical as I admit that sounds, it's unfortunately not the case. The 100-400L wont AF with the 1.4X TC on either of my 50D bodies, and wouldn't previously on the 40D or 20D either. It appears that the AF function is governed by the smallest actual aperture of the lens at full zoom regardless of if you use it at a shorter zoom length.

You can of course use the 1.4X TC with a 1 Series body and it will AF, whereas with a 2X TC you'd have to manually focus.
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On my 40D the 100-400 + TC (Kenko) would only autofocus if I used one of the 4 focus points at 12, 3, 6, & 9 o'clock to the centre point. The centre point only worked in really good light with clear contrast areas but the 4 mentioned worked absolutely fine.
 
Orville said:
On my 40D the 100-400 + TC (Kenko) would only autofocus if I used one of the 4 focus points at 12, 3, 6, & 9 o'clock to the centre point. The centre point only worked in really good light with clear contrast areas but the 4 mentioned worked absolutely fine.
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I think the Kenko is noted for working where the Canon ones don't.
 
tdodd said:
It is the max aperture at the focal length, but even at 100mm the max aperture is only f/4.5 and a 1.4X teleconverter would push that the f/6.3, which is obviously beyond f/5.6. You need to start out at f/4 or faster if you want to add a 1.4X teleconverter on any body other than a 1 series. Otherwise you're into the taping pins scenario, crossing fingers and hoping for the best.
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Itworks on the maximum aperture of the lens (regardless of what focal length on that lens you use).

BUT I forgot the 100-400 was f4.5 so yes putting on the 1.4x would make it outwith the AF limit.
 
Uneducated_Rick said:
I'm waiting for the first "affordable full frame high speed" DSLR bring on the 1DIVs :naughty:
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A 1d class camera is not generally considered "affordable" . Affordable generally means prosumer level to semi pro. The first high speed FF camera (from Canon) may be year to 18 months behind the 1D MkIV.
 
I was looking as a back up to my 1Ds MkII & thought this may be a candidate as it was cheaper than the 5D MkII which I could get at around £1750 but I then noticed the 50D has really dropped & managed to get a body for £712. I didnt need HD anyway and the 1.6 sensor has some advantages on my longer lenses which I missed these last 4 yrs with the FF sensor
 
EOS_JD said:
Itworks on the maximum aperture of the lens (regardless of what focal length on that lens you use).
BUT I forgot the 100-400 was f4.5 so yes putting on the 1.4x would make it outwith the AF limit.
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It works on the lowest f/number of the lens at the focal length in question, which is not necessarily the lowest f/number at any focal length.

Strictly speaking it is not the f/number that is the significant factor, but the size of the light cone exiting the lens to the AF sensor. However, since to all intents and purposes they are effectively the same thing, it is the f/number everyone refers to.
 
HoppyUK said:
It works on the lowest f/number of the lens at the focal length in question, which is not necessarily the lowest f/number at any focal length.
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No that is not correct. If I have say a 28-105 lens that has an aperture of 3.5-5.6, the 1.4x converter will work at ANY focal length as the max aperture of f3.5 + the 1 stop of light loss = f5

At 105mm the lens may still show an aperture of f8 but AF will still function as the max aperture of the lens is still f3.5. In a constant-aperture zoom, the diaphragm opening is either effectively opened wider or closed down narrower as one zooms to longer and shorter focal lengths - this extra engineering is necessary to try to maintain a constant aperture. Since the aperture of a lens, in f-stops, is equal to focal length divided by iris opening, longer focal lengths require wider openings and shorter lengths require smaller openings to maintain the same ratio.

However, in a variable-aperture zoom, the designer simply lets the iris opening stay fixed during focal length changes (or sometimes only partially compensates for focal length changes). If the diaphragm opening is fixed at a certain size, as an example, then zooming to a longer focal length will result in a larger f-stop ratio (i.e., a smaller aperture), while zooming to a shorter focal length will result in a smaller f-stop ratio (i.e., a larger aperture), even if the aperture ring is untouched by the photographer.

HoppyUK said:
Strictly speaking it is not the f/number that is the significant factor, but the size of the light cone exiting the lens to the AF sensor. However, since to all intents and purposes they are effectively the same thing, it is the f/number everyone refers to.
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Few experienced togs call it the f/number. It's generally referred to as the aperture (or f-stop) - the size of the lens opening.

We're maybe splitting hairs though AND we're off topic :)
 
The above is actually incorrect, it is the 'final' resulting aperture of the lens at the maximum capable aperture for that particular focal length combined with the stop loss depending on the converter used.

At 105mm a 24-105mm 3.5 / 5.6 can not somehow magically summon up f/3.5 - the maximum aperture capable of the lens at that focal length of 105mm is 5.6 period. Then the stop loss by the converter is taken into account - the resulting aperture is what is relayed to the camera. The resulting aperture is what impacts whether AF is or is not used.
 
EOS_JD said:
No that is not correct. If I have say a 28-105 lens that has an aperture of 3.5-5.6, the 1.4x converter will work at ANY focal length as the max aperture of f3.5 + the 1 stop of light loss = f5

At 105mm the lens may still show an aperture of f8 but AF will still function as the max aperture of the lens is still f3.5. In a constant-aperture zoom, the diaphragm opening is either effectively opened wider or closed down narrower as one zooms to longer and shorter focal lengths - this extra engineering is necessary to try to maintain a constant aperture. Since the aperture of a lens, in f-stops, is equal to focal length divided by iris opening, longer focal lengths require wider openings and shorter lengths require smaller openings to maintain the same ratio.

However, in a variable-aperture zoom, the designer simply lets the iris opening stay fixed during focal length changes (or sometimes only partially compensates for focal length changes). If the diaphragm opening is fixed at a certain size, as an example, then zooming to a longer focal length will result in a larger f-stop ratio (i.e., a smaller aperture), while zooming to a shorter focal length will result in a smaller f-stop ratio (i.e., a larger aperture), even if the aperture ring is untouched by the photographer.



Few experienced togs call it the f/number. It's generally referred to as the aperture (or f-stop) - the size of the lens opening.

We're maybe splitting hairs though AND we're off topic :)
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Sorry bud, but despite your insistence and (contradictory) explanation, you are wrong, as razor777 says.

And if you want to split hairs, it's the f/ratio ;)
 
I'm not yet convinced but I am rethinking :) When I bought my 1.4x I researched this - Sad thing is I don't have any slow lenses to try it out! In fact the Canon one doesn't fit any slow lenses I don't think! My old Kenko 1.4x one got used on a Sigma 18-135 f3.5 - 5.6 and worked (albeit slowly
 
Ths is what I meant to say - found on the web.

http://www.digiscoped.com/teleconverters.html

"By the way, don't think because you stop down on your lens, so that the combination is worse than f5.6, it will cause auto-focus to stop working. A camera's auto focus system only ever sees your lens at it's widest aperture (lowest f#), as the lens aperture closes down only when the shutter opens to take the shot (that's why the image is always nice and bright in the viewfinder even when you've stopped down to f32 or the like)"
 
EOS_JD said:
I'm not yet convinced but I am rethinking :) When I bought my 1.4x I researched this - Sad thing is I don't have any slow lenses to try it out!
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LOL ;) What is puzzling me is that you say one thing, then post an explanation that appears to prove yourself wrong. :thinking:

If you look down the barrel of a vari-aperture zoom, set at f/8 maybe, you will see the diaphragm blades move as you zoom. Obviously, in order to maintain the f/number as the focal length changes. At lowest f/number, this doesn't happen, and so the f/number varies.

What this means in practise, with my 40D, 100-400L 4.5-5.6 lens and 1.4x extender (with taped pins so the Canon AF doesn't just switch off past f/5.6) is that it will AF okay at the short end where it is effectively f/6.3. This amount of AF headroom appears normal, and that is what Sigma/Tamron are exploiting with some of their lenses which are f/6.3 at the long end.

But as you zoom out past f/6.3, it faulters and becomes erratic, then hunts madly and is completely useless past 200mm.

Edit: Oh, crossed post. The quote you have just posted refers to something different. It just means that you focus and compose at maximum aperture regardless of the f/number used for the actual exposure.
 
HoppyUK said:
Edit: Oh, crossed post. The quote you have just posted refers to something different. It just means that you focus and compose at maximum aperture regardless of the f/number used for the actual exposure.
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But that is what the camera uses to AF. Sorry if my explanations were pants - I know what I mean in my head and struggling to put it across :)
 
HoppyUK said:
LOL ;) What is puzzling me is that you say one thing, then post an explanation that appears to prove yourself wrong. :thinking:

If you look down the barrel of a vari-aperture zoom, set at f/8 maybe, you will see the diaphragm blades move as you zoom. Obviously, in order to maintain the f/number as the focal length changes. At lowest f/number, this doesn't happen, and so the f/number varies.
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What this means in practise, with my 40D, 100-400L 4.5-5.6 lens and 1.4x extender (with taped pins so the Canon AF doesn't just switch off past f/5.6) is that it will AF okay at the short end where it is effectively f/6.3. This amount of AF headroom appears normal, and that is what Sigma/Tamron are exploiting with some of their lenses which are f/6.3 at the long end.

But as you zoom out past f/6.3, it faulters and becomes erratic, then hunts madly and is completely useless past 200mm.[/quote]

I'm still not sure that is right. The reason Sigma f4.5-6.3 lenses Autofocus at f6.3 is becaue the maximum aperture of the lens is f4.5. The actual aperture value when using AF is the max aperture of the lens (as noted above).

The reason the AF falters is because the camera is not letting much light in so AFsystem is poorer in lower light (restricting the light with a TC will have a big impact on most lenses (more so slower ones)
[/QUOTE]
 
LOL JD :) When it is said that lenses AF at maximum aperture (lowest f/number) that refers to the maximum aperture at whatever focal length has been set. Eg a 100-400L 4.5-5.6 lens can never be anything lower than f/5.6 at 400mm; if you add a 1.4x TC that becomes 560mm f/8, and that is why it will not AF (with or without taped pins, or a rain dance) on anything less than Canon 1-Series bodies.

BTW, AF systems are remarkably tolerant to changes in light level. If you give them a nice fat cone of light to work with (low f/number) and a good bit of contrast in the subject, they will AF in very low light indeed.
 
HoppyUK said:
LOL JD :) When it is said that lenses AF at maximum aperture (lowest f/number) that refers to the maximum aperture at whatever focal length has been set. Eg a 100-400L 4.5-5.6 lens can never be anything lower than f/5.6 at 400mm; if you add a 1.4x TC that becomes 560mm f/8, and that is why it will not AF (with or without taped pins, or a rain dance) on anything less than Canon 1-Series bodies.

BTW, AF systems are remarkably tolerant to changes in light level. If you give them a nice fat cone of light to work with (low f/number) and a good bit of contrast in the subject, they will AF in very low light indeed.
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I think we are missing each others point. I totally understand your point. I'm NOT talking about using a 100-400 lens. I know it won't AF because the max aperture with a TC (1.4x) is actually f6.3 for AF purposes. I appreciate as you zoom out it becomes f8 but the lens' max aperture is still f6.3 (both outside the capabilities of anything less than a 1d series.

Hypothetical
Lets say you have a 100-400 f4-5.6 Put a 1.4x converter on it. Will your 40D autofocus at any focal length? Answer is YES (might be very slow at anything other than bright light) but it will work. It doesn't just stop as the aperture changes.
 
EOS_JD said:
I think we are missing each others point. I totally understand your point. I'm NOT talking about using a 100-400 lens. I know it won't AF because the max aperture with a TC (1.4x) is actually f6.3 for AF purposes. I appreciate as you zoom out it becomes f8 but the lens' max aperture is still f6.3 (both outside the capabilities of anything less than a 1d series.

Hypothetical
Lets say you have a 100-400 f4-5.6 Put a 1.4x converter on it. Will your 40D autofocus at any focal length? Answer is YES (might be very slow at anything other than bright light) but it will work. It doesn't just stop as the aperture changes.
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Oh blimey! Do you know what time it is? LOL

It's not such a hypothetical question, extremely close to my actual example above, which I've already answered, but I see why you've changed it.

And the answer is still NO. It will NOT autofocus at all focal lengths. It will not AF at 400mm with a 1.4x TC, no matter what. And that is because it has become 560mm f/8.
 
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