Canon 70D, Have I made a mistake?

dougan

dougan

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Dougie
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Purchased a Canon 70D 2 weeks ago, purely on its reported better ISO performance due to its new sensor, over my present Canon 7D.
Having used the 70D, and tried it at higher ISO settings, I cannot tell if it is much better than the 7D, may be a smidgen better, but not a night and day difference.

I realise the 7D is a better built model, and the 70D is a step backwards, but for its superior ISO performance, I was willing to "downgrade". I do prefer the feel of the 7D though!

Not sure what to do, I was intending to sell the 7D to help fund the purchase of the 70D. But do I bite the bullet and sell the virtually brand new 70D, but no doubt at a great loss.
 
How do you convert your images? Do you use DPP, Photoshop, or Lightroom, or something else? I bet if you normally use Lightroom, that DPP conversions will be better.
 
Photoshop Elements, as I am not a great "tweaker" of images. Just updated to Elements 12, as my version 9 does not support the 70D Raw files
 
Try taking an image, converting it with Elements and with DPP, and see if there is a big difference.

I had an image of Grand Central in New York. I converted it with Photoshop, Lightroom, DPP and a program called BreezeBrowser. DPP gave by far the best, as it uses the Canon proprietary information. The noise was worst on Lightroom and there was a significant difference between them.

I would do the same with a 7d image and a 70d image taken on the same settings of the same thing and see if you are happy with the results.

Have not used a 70d so can't help on that regard, but the image conversion program may be the issue.
 
I would say its to early to give up yet on the 70D,but sometimes we do make mistakes and it can be costly :(
 
Even with a newer sensor I still think you will be asking a lot from 20mp on a crop camera to see a vast improvement.
Maybe a 6D would have been a better bet, but the cameras you have should still produce good quality photos at reasonable ISO's
 
Can't say I've ever read that the 70d performs much better than the 7d with high ISOs. Any opinions I've read have always said the difference was minimal :\

6d would definitely be a better improvement for low light if that's what you need.
 
Going by reviews that I've read I believe that the 70D is better at higher ISO's than the 7D. However I think some of the comments and 'owner reviews' around the 'net about how bad the 7D was and how much better the 70D is can be taken with a large pinch of salt.
The 70D does have other advantages though, would the flip out lcd and improved live view be any benefit to you ? I'd be keeping whichever camera I was going to use the most.
 
Yes, I was taking note of "owner reviews"!
The flip out lcd screen might be useful in certain situations, I never use live view.
 
Probably the same reviewers that said the 40d was better than the 50d :)

What do you shoot that needs high ISO?
 
Mostly birds with the Sigma 150-500
 
From everything I have read the high ISO noise levels are not all that different between the 7D & 70D Dougie with maybe the 70D just shading it (some say the 70D images are a tad 'cleaner'). to get significantly better high ISO noise performance you need to move up from the 1.6 crop Camera. The 1D3 or 1D4 (1.3 crop) will give better noise performance with the full frames like 6D 5D3 and 1DX being better still BUT you lose a lot of 'effective' reach with these Cameras. I have a 5D3 these days and shooting at ISO 6400 is no problem as far as noise is concerned but of course for birds reach is a big problem - A 400mm lens on a 1.6 cropper will give more effective 'reach' (640mm) than a 600mm lens on a full frame!!!.
One thing I would miss for birds on the 70D if coming from a 7D would be the lack of spot AF and point expansion but if you can live with that the 70D should be a fine Camera. If you do try shooting in RAW then I would also recommend converting the RAW in DPP even if you do most of the editing in elements or photoshop.
BTW the biggest thing to controlling noise levels is by shooting to the right (ETTR) IMHO. If you underexpose and have to push in processing then this will amplify any noise (as will cropping too heavily).
 
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Many thanks Roy, very informative. I do shoot in RAW and use Elements to edit. Excuse my ignorance, but what is DPP?
 
Digital Photo Professional:)
 
Digital Photo Professional (DPP) is the software that Canon ships with its digital SLRs:)
 
Sounds like you made a mistake, the 70D does have some handy new features but in absolute quality terms as you've already found out there's not much difference.

Depending on how and exactly when you bought it you may still be able to return it under distance selling regulations?
 
Roy C said:
BTW the biggest thing to controlling noise levels is by shooting to the right (ETTR) IMHO. If you underexpose and have to push in processing then this will amplify any noise (as will cropping too heavily).
Click to expand...

Yup but with ETTR sometimes you could have shot with a lower ISO and sometimes you end up having to back it off and if you do that you can end up losing shadow detail. If you can ETTR it's worth doing, I've had very good results from my G1 at ISO 3200 by ETTR. Deffo avoid pushing the exposure at higher ISO's though.
 
Interesting

I still (or at least currently) maintain that for noise at medium to high ISO - the only step up from Canon's current 1.6 croppers is full frame or 1D (as long as it's 1D3 or newer)
 
dougan said:
Many thanks Roy, very informative. I do shoot in RAW and use Elements to edit.
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I don't think it is all bad news Dougie, I know of several knowledgeable and good bird photographers who say the 70D is a nice step-up from the 7D, most saying that the AF is more consistent and also for BIF(although you do not have point expansion) ZoneAF is said to work better than on the 7D. Live view AF on the 70D is also supposed to be a lot better/quicker. I am not knocking the 7D as I was its biggest fan for several years but must admit that the AF was a tad inconsistent at times (the 5D3 is in another league re AF but that's another story). If I were in the market for another 1.6 cropper at the moment I think I would go for the 70D (although waiting for the fabled 7D2 is tempting but it will certainly be double the price of 70D I would have thought).
 
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Well, the answer is obvious, surprised no one has mentioned it. Only shoot on bright sunny days :)
 
woof woof said:
Yup but with ETTR sometimes you could have shot with a lower ISO and sometimes you end up having to back it off and if you do that you can end up losing shadow detail. If you can ETTR it's worth doing, I've had very good results from my G1 at ISO 3200 by ETTR. Deffo avoid pushing the exposure at higher ISO's though.
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One of the big things with ETTR for me is that you are getting the very best out of the sensor in terms of dynamic range - it is reckoned that some 80% of the tones captured are contained in the brightest 20% of the histogram - if you do not push the histo as far as you dare (without blowing the target of course) you could be missing out on so much of the colour tones/dynamic range. With birds I always aim to just start to clip the highlights of the bird, shooting in RAW you can always pull back a 1/3 stop. If you underexpose and then push in processing not only will you increase any noise but you will never recover the loss dynamic range. Anyway that's enough cr#p from me lol.
 
Thanks again Roy!
Will put my mint 7D with only 1422 clicks up for sale!
 
Before you do, install DPP from your bundled disc and give it a go. Its simple and works well. Even if you only use it to convert and then do other things with Elements its likely to be worthwhile.

You can also do Canon lens corrections, and a fair bit of other stuff, but not as much as Elements. It well worth trying as no other software has the proprietary code to do the conversion as well as Canon designed it.
 
you could try dxo optics prime, think thats the best noise reduction on the market. does take 5-10mins per photo though..
 
Thanks for all your constructive comments!
I feel I cannot sell a virtually new camera, so will stick with the 70D, I do like the touch screen though!
 
Roy C said:
One of the big things with ETTR for me is that you are getting the very best out of the sensor in terms of dynamic range - it is reckoned that some 80% of the tones captured are contained in the brightest 20% of the histogram - if you do not push the histo as far as you dare (without blowing the target of course) you could be missing out on so much of the colour tones/dynamic range. With birds I always aim to just start to clip the highlights of the bird, shooting in RAW you can always pull back a 1/3 stop. If you underexpose and then push in processing not only will you increase any noise but you will never recover the loss dynamic range. Anyway that's enough cr#p from me lol.
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Agree with Roy here I think that getting the exposure right will make a bigger difference than slight differences between lightroom and DPP
I used to use DPP it is very good but now use lightroom its much more usable than DPP
 
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i've shot the canon 1d3 and the 7d, 1d3 was way better than the 7d- so if the 70d is just a little better than the 7d, then the 1d3 must be better than the 70d- and with the pro grade build and AF

I happen to be selling mine on the forum if you're interested
 
dougan said:
Thanks for all your constructive comments!
I feel I cannot sell a virtually new camera, so will stick with the 70D, I do like the touch screen though!
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But the 7D has less than 1500 images on it and you bought another camera? Surprising to me, it's as though you didn't really give it a chance and went for the shiney new one.
 
Not sure any of the Canon crop cameras have been great at higher ISO, had a 40D and 7D not that much to choose between them really. If I were taking bird photos would definitely keep the 7D for its focusing ability along with its other features, such a great camera to use
 
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manualfocus-g said:
Interesting comments about full frame reach. The IQ at higher iso is far better at pixel level with the latest full framers, so as long as you're not printing whacking great images, cropping isn't that bad an option.
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Yes, at base ISO the latest crop sensor bodies have incredible DR. However, when the ISO's start to go up (and for birds and fast subjects in average british light, 1/1000 and up often requires ISO's way above base) then the full frame cams hold onto the detail and the dynamic range a little better.

As a result, I'd still favour a crop if birds were my only subject, but I'll bet that at 1/1000 and ISO 3200-6400 there's possibly a more detailed image to be had by cropping from FF than filling an APSC frame. Would make for an interesting comparison.
 
Surely talk of what software one uses is irrelevant to the OP. He is comparing camera performance not software performance. If DPP improves conversions on images taken with 70D then presumably it will do the same for images taken with the 7D, so he might as well have stuck with 7D and changed software?

Ignore this post though if I'm missing the point.
 
Jackwow said:
Surely talk of what software one uses is irrelevant to the OP. He is comparing camera performance not software performance. If DPP improves conversions on images taken with 70D then presumably it will do the same for images taken with the 7D, so he might as well have stuck with 7D and changed software?

Ignore this post though if I'm missing the point.
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Nope, exactly my thoughts.

It sounds like somebody read and believed too many user 'reviews'. Amazon, in particular, swarms with people who will write glowing reviews of a pile of poo. And many of the forum posts from new owners gush with praise (those that aren't complaining that the new model isn't as good as the old model). Real reviews from people I've learned to trust (and who take good photos) suggest that there's a barely perceptible difference in the noise of raw files. I based my decision not to 'upgrade' on their opinions and not those of the Amazon praise-gushers or DxO's random number generator.
 
danbroad said:
Yes, at base ISO the latest crop sensor bodies have incredible DR. However, when the ISO's start to go up (and for birds and fast subjects in average british light, 1/1000 and up often requires ISO's way above base) then the full frame cams hold onto the detail and the dynamic range a little better.

As a result, I'd still favour a crop if birds were my only subject, but I'll bet that at 1/1000 and ISO 3200-6400 there's possibly a more detailed image to be had by cropping from FF than filling an APSC frame. Would make for an interesting comparison.
Click to expand...

No bird comparison, but I did test the 60D against the 6D a while back and the results are here: http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/new-canon.522681/#post-6011836
 
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Thanks - interesting indeed! Would it seem possible that, against all the usual advice, a full frame 20MP plus camera and a 400/5.6 might be a 'better' birding combo than an APS-C camera with a 600 Tamron - lost reach more than made up for by crop ability and contrast/detail retention at real world british ISO's? Food for thought...
 
Hi everyone I am new to the forum and have the same doubts as dougan. Is really the 70d a mistake to buy? I am not very experienced photographer and I just like to take photos in my free time, when I have the little free time for myself...
I just upgraded from my 1000D which I had for 5 years, but have always wanted a full frame because of low light circumstances when I shoot indoors. The 70D really feels great and it is nice to be able to use higher iso. On my 1000d everything over 400 was looking awful. It is just frustrating that all around the internet people recommend the 6D over the 70D as they are similarly priced. Well not where I live! In Denmark the 70D is almost half price of the 6D body. But still I should've maybe bought a used 7D?
 
S.Tonchev said:
Hi everyone I am new to the forum and have the same doubts as dougan. Is really the 70d a mistake to buy? I am not very experienced photographer and I just like to take photos in my free time, when I have the little free time for myself...
I just upgraded from my 1000D which I had for 5 years, but have always wanted a full frame because of low light circumstances when I shoot indoors. The 70D really feels great and it is nice to be able to use higher iso. On my 1000d everything over 400 was looking awful. It is just frustrating that all around the internet people recommend the 6D over the 70D as they are similarly priced. Well not where I live! In Denmark the 70D is almost half price of the 6D body. But still I should've maybe bought a used 7D?
Click to expand...
7D is an APS-C sensor (same as your 70D but an older iteration).
 
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