Canon 580EXii or RF602 and second 430EX?

NewbieNeil

NewbieNeil

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I have a Canon 7D and I am exploring off-camera flash. I currently have one 430EX (mark 1) and want to add a second flashgun to my set-up for greater versatility. I will be using them mainly for home portraits but also out and about from time to time. I was thinking about a cheap twin head studio flash kit, like the Interfit EXD200, but I have moved back towards a twin speedlite setup, having been inspired by Syl Arena's book.

Now, I know that the 7D pop-up flash can act as a master and I can set it to fire the 430EX off camera while disabling the pop-up flash from firing during the exposure. I believe that it sends the ETTL/trigger flash before the shutter opens, right? Clearly, I don't want any on camera flash during the shutter exposure.

However, slaving multiple speedlites requires line of sight, doesn't it? Not a problem for a posed portrait, but we took our 5 month old baby to a pro studio recently and the chap was able to shoot hand-held, moving quickly all the time, lying on the floor, standing on chairs, changing position, etc. Line of sight would have surely been compromised. I think he was using an RF-602.

But does the RF-602 retain the ETTL communication between the flashguns and the 7D? Is this indeed possible? I always thought that using multiple slaves in a Canon system allowed the ETTL to still work perfectly.

So, to summarise... (sorry it's been a mammoth post!)

1. Does the RF-602 retain ETTL when used with one or more slaves, or do I need to use the off-camera master via an ETTL cable?
2. If I have the 7D, is a 580EXii a waste of money because I'll never use it as an on-camera master?
3. Should I buy a 430EXii and a RF-602 instead?
4. Is the extra stop of light and the strobe function that you only get on a 580EXii worth it for the extra money for 7D owners?

I hope that makes sense.

Thanks

Neil
 
RF-602 doesn't do any kind of TTL, you'll need to set up your flashes manually.
 
What Jim said...

Plus, as far as what's better you will have to decide that. If you use the onboard flash from the 7D or a 580 you will be able to retain ETTL function. The 580 will allow high speed sync whereas the 7D will not. You'd have ti decide if that's something that would be important to you or not. The 602's are some really good remotes. I have a bunch of them! Either setup would work if you got one but the 602's would give you the most consistency since you don't have to rely on line-of-sight.
 
I just got a second 580exII yesterday.

The general advice is the 430exII is better value for money however I read the comparisons and the features for me the extra £100 or so was worth it (180° swivelhead in both direction, the master controller, the dial interface, weatherproof, strobe, +1stop or so of light).

You don't need direct line of sight indoor - obviously the size of the room will affect this. I was testing the on camera flash yesterday and the slave was behind me (it was also behind the biggish box it arrived in lying on a desk). The flash went off every time until I pointed the master to the room window. It was south facing and very bright so seemed to suppress the ettl pulse

1. R602 doesn't retain ETTL -it is only manual.
2. Is it a waste of money? For me no, others yes! If you ever had another body without master functionality then you may wish you had it then (like my 500D). Other benefits listed above
3. I wouldn't use a 430exII with RF602 and sacrifice on of the major features of ETTL - unless the job pushed ETTL beyond its operating limits. You can remotely set you flashes using the Master Manual mode. So if you prefer the reliability of manual you can use and also remotely set it on the distant slave (within its group) without having to walk up to the slave.
4. Can't answer that from personal experience. However I still think the added features are worth it.


Andy
 
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The line of sight issue seems to be rather overemphasised for indoor shooters. In a small enough room the signal bounces around and I rarely get misfires unless I push the flash too far into a brollybox. It is an issue outdoors and probably is in large spaces/over large distances. (See simultaneous post above!)

The extra stop becmes useful if you use modifiers as these can eat the light a bit and it can be an issue if you use a gel+stofen+double diffused softbox. I have 580 mk 1s that are cheap enough second hand and powerful.

On disabling the on-camera flash: my st-e2 transmitter battery ran out during my last shoot so I stuck a 580 in the shoe as a disabled master (unless I did something odd). But all my shots had a tiny catchlight that I think must have come from the master. Easy to get rid of but I was surprised it was there.
 
I used to use the ST-E2 as my transmitter to a 580EXIi and a 430EX and it was very hit or miss as to whether it would fire, as the lighting modifiers tended to get in the way and so wouldnt see the ST-E2.

Plus, having a £300 flash on your hotshoe controlling other units is possibly a bit of a waste, as that £300 flash should be mounted on a light stand using some kind of lighting modifier to get the best out of your pictures.

Also, I found that using the ST-E2 in E-TTL was that if I took a few pictures of the same subject in a controlled environment together in succession, becuase the camera was re-metering every individual shot, the exposures were very slightly different, based upon what was framed, even if it changed slightly. In manual, once your setup and as long as your subject doesnt move out of the sweet spot, its the same exposure, every time.

Radio triggers with everything in manual is the way forward, in my view.
 
Thank you all for your insightful comments and advice! Lots to think about, but I think I am nearing a decision...

Jim.R said:
RF-602 doesn't do any kind of TTL, you'll need to set up your flashes manually.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought might be the case. I can see the attraction of maintaining the full ETTL control, especially if I am shooting in changing light situations.

ianmarsh said:
The line of sight issue seems to be rather overemphasised for indoor shooters. In a small enough room the signal bounces around and I rarely get misfires unless I push the flash too far into a brollybox.
Click to expand...

That's reassuring, thanks!

ianmarsh said:
The extra stop becmes useful if you use modifiers as these can eat the light a bit and it can be an issue if you use a gel+stofen+double diffused softbox.
Click to expand...

That's also very interesting Ian. The first modifer that I bought for my 430EX was a stofen and I found that it dimmed the light too much. I have recently been using a Karlite elasticated diffuser which I have found to be very effective. I am likely to be adding some kind of modifer to my new flashgun, so the extra stop will be useful.

Marcus Geezer said:
Plus, having a £300 flash on your hotshoe controlling other units is possibly a bit of a waste, as that £300 flash should be mounted on a light stand using some kind of lighting modifier to get the best out of your pictures.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with the 580 being a waste on camera. Perhaps the best way to avoid the possible catchlight symptom that was mentioned above is to use the 580 as an off-camera master, linked by an OC ETTL cord, and then modified with a stofen or a softbox?

Marcus Geezer said:
Also, I found that using the ST-E2 in E-TTL was that if I took a few pictures of the same subject in a controlled environment together in succession, becuase the camera was re-metering every individual shot, the exposures were very slightly different, based upon what was framed, even if it changed slightly. In manual, once your setup and as long as your subject doesnt move out of the sweet spot, its the same exposure, every time.

Radio triggers with everything in manual is the way forward, in my view.
Click to expand...

Right, so here is my current thinking...:thinking:

Buy the 580EXII and a short ETTL extension cord for off-camera use. Plus a modifier. When I want to be fully mobile (e.g toddler shots), I can think about adding an RF-602.

Expensive, but versatile. And future proof?... What do you all think?

Thanks again

Neil
 
Is there any reason you won't control the OCF 580exII using the inbuilt 7D controller? If you are as close as a short cable I don't see why you don't use it?

I'd have some rf602s anyway..they are cheap enough.
 
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AndyB1976 said:
Is there any reason you won't control the OCF 580exII using the the inbuilt 7D controller? If you are as close as a short cable I don't see why you don't use it?
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Good point Andy! I'll get the 580EXII now and see how the OC goes with the 7D pop up as master. If I get frustrated by the mysterious catchlights mentioned in one of the above posts then I can always add the OC ETTL cord (or the RF-602) later.

Marcus Geezer said:
Why not just bite the bullet now and go manual using rf-602? Once you've got the hang of it, it's easy.
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I think that this is where I want to end up Marcus, for all my home studio shots. I know it's where I should be aiming. But as a starting point, playing with the ETTL features and adjusting the ratios will keep me busy enough until I find my feet with this multiple flashgun approach. It's pretty new to me. Until now, all I have done is stuck my EX430 on the hotshoe, set to auto ETTL and pressed the shutter release in P mode!

Thanks again guys

Neil
 
My 60d works very well as master. Much much better than I thought it would.
 
I've just started messing around with 3 x RF 602 receivers, a 580 EX a Cobra D400 and a Sunpak 433D, and I'm starting to get some very good results after a bit of trial and error. I'm a relative novice and it didn't take long to get some encouraging results with what most people would describe as bottom of the pile gear, such as £13 stands and £5 umbrellas. I didn't want to spend much as I'm really only playing about doing a few family shots here and there.
 
I would:

Get a couple of decent E-TTL guns, and see how you get on mastering them off the 7D. You can use E-TTL in all sorts of ways, and it's far more controllable than some people think once you get to know it. You can have both the flash and camera on auto, or both on manual, or either one on auto/manual. (Even when the master unit is set not to fire, it still puts out a tiny residual flash which can be seen in reflections, but it doesn't affect the exposure except at very close range.*)

Sync issues are unlikely indoors, and you can do quite a lot outdoors too, but the IR system doesn't like bright sun. In that case you have a few options. Maybe all you would need is a better master that you can direct for better line of sight, and I would get the new Yongnuo ST-E2 clone which appears to be much better than the Canon version, plus it's only £80 on ebay (google it).

If that doesn't do it, then that's probably because the camera is too far away and so placing the master on a dedicated cord close to the slaves usually sorts that. They're cheap and you can get them up to 10m long.

If that doesn't work, or you need wireless, then RF-602 radio triggers. Get a couple for £50 anyway, really handy, can be used as a remote camera trigger too. They're manual only of course, plus you will lose high speed sync which can be a lifesaver in some situations and is only available with E-TTL.

Or if you're feeling flush, just get a set of Pocket Wizard Flexes. You'll need one on camera and one for each flash at £200 each. They seem to have got them working well now, and they do everything, including a few really useful tricks that the Canon E-TTL system does not (HyperSync, optimised HSS, remote second curtain sync).

* Edit: you can get rid of that reflection by putting an IR filter over the master. Nikon makes one, or a couple of dark red cellophane wrappers from a box of Quality Street and a rubber band does it pretty well ;) Doesn't seem to affect range at all :thumbs:
 
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Thanks Davyboy, Richard and Kris

Really helpful advice. I am going to bite the bullet and get the 530EXII and then explore from there. I love the advice about the red sweet wrappers over the pop-up flash! And I am probably going to be next in line for the £13 stands and cheap umbrellas...!

Neil
 
can be used as a remote camera trigger too

How do I use as a remote Hoppy, do I need any extra gear apart from the three receivers and transmitter and what came with them?
 
Davyboy said:
can be used as a remote camera trigger too

How do I use as a remote Hoppy, do I need any extra gear apart from the three receivers and transmitter and what came with them?
Click to expand...

You need the right cord. Sometimes it's supplied, usually not I think. It's the one with a camera-specific plug on the end, that connects the receiver to the camera's remote socket.
 
Don't forget that you can use the remote shutter operation in other ways.

I recently shot a wedding where a second long lenses camera was fixed up in the gantry pointing at the happy couple. My camera was triggering this remote camera every time I took a shot, so I got two perspectives for every shot. I could even trigger the remote camera manually during a quiet part of the service.
 
Thanks Hoppy, I got one for a meagre £3 odd and think that all I do is connect one end to the remote socket on the camera and the other end to the receiver, and when ready just press the button on the transmitter, as simple as that. (I hope)
 
This is a good thread.
I am also thinking about using 2 flashes and ettl. Will my 40D have triggering ability on its own to trigger 2 slaves?
 
jmsjabb said:
This is a good thread.
I am also thinking about using 2 flashes and ettl. Will my 40D have triggering ability on its own to trigger 2 slaves?
Click to expand...

No. Only 7D and 60D have a pop-up with master E-TTL controller functions.

So you need a separate master - various options, starting with the Yongnuo ST-E2 at £80 and running up to a set of Pocket Wizards radio triggers at £400 (edit: £600 for transmitter and two receivers).

IMHO, the Yongnuo looks like the best option regardless unless you need radio for sure. Or maybe a 580EXII which is both a gun and a master (or a third party alternative like Nissin, Metz, Sigma).
 
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