Canon 1DX release

[BLZeebub]

Cant see this happening as if you look at the product ranges from Nikon and Canon they deliberately dont make the exact same cameras. What would be the point of the two top makers delivering identical products to market? You need to distinguish yourself and it makes more sense to have something that doesnt directly compete.

B->

Better give Ford and Vauxhall a phone call to let them know that

I take the point on cars to a degree but sere not talking about cars.

I'd disagree with that. The point of making a camera that directly competes would be to take that market share away from the competition.

So why do they both make cameras that dont directly compete as seen by the numerous requests of why doesnt one of them make a camera with the feature set of another?

I'd guess some of that is accounted for by one manifacturer springing a supprize and/or tapping into a market that the other didnt think was large enough, the 5D mk2 pushing megapixels and the D3s pushing ISO for example.

Having established a large market for a high megapixel smaller FF body I find it unlikely that Canon would walk away from it.

My point exactly - they both make cameras that overlap each other but dont directly rival.

B->

 

[grotty]

So why do they both make cameras that dont directly compete as seen by the numerous requests of why doesnt one of them make a camera with the feature set of another?

B->

They may have a variety of different feature sets, but to say that the models don't compete is incorrect; the novice, enthusiast and pro could choose a body from either Canon or Nikon therefore they are in direct competition with each other - they just have different features.

 

[desantnik]

But thats Mr B's point they do *compete*... they *compete* by having easily identifiable different features, rather than just being the same item with a different designer label on it.

Very few manufactured products ever compete with each other just on price/brand, except when the Chinese (illegally usually) clone things.

 

[BLZeebub]

They may have a variety of different feature sets, but to say that the models don't compete is incorrect; the novice, enthusiast and pro could choose a body from either Canon or Nikon therefore they are in direct competition with each other - they just have different features.

Yes, on a wide basis the novice/enthusiast/pro can choose either system but as you've noted you get a different feature set so i stand by my point and more so the higher up the range.

A few examples are that Canon have no direct competitor to a D700 and Nikon have no direct competitor to a 1DMK4. They both do cameras that overlap to a degree but they dont do a like-for-like clone.

B->

 

[Moreorless]

My point exactly - they both make cameras that overlap each other but dont directly rival.

B->

I'd guess it depends how much of an overlap were talking about, they will always mix things up a little but generally when one manifacturer doesnt have anything close to another its IMHO generally because either they werent aware of a rival product or that they didnt believe there was a market for it.

My guess would be that Canon come out with 2 more 5D sized FF bodies in the next year, a cheaper one that reuses the 1Dx sensor and a more expensive one that pushes megapixels.

 

[desantnik]

My guess would be that Canon come out with 2 more 5D sized FF bodies in the next year, a cheaper one that reuses the 1Dx sensor and a more expensive one that pushes megapixels.

If they did, that would be a first for them.

So far, AFAIK, Nikon are the only ones to *directly* reuse technology in that way and its perfectly possible that Canon marketing people saw that as a mistake rather than a victory - "so you didn't sell expensive D3 bodies because you made a cut price non-pro bodied one.... why?"

Maybe the 7D is an example of some movement from the traditional Canon position ("you want Pro AF, you buy the top of the range item, nothing else"), but I'd be surprised to see much more.

The 1DX has some very clever first to market AF features, it will take quite a while before those filter down, they need to recover their investment costs - assuming of course that the margin on a 1DX is greater than that of a lesser body.

 

[grotty]

But thats Mr B's point they do *compete*... they *compete* by having easily identifiable different features, rather than just being the same item with a different designer label on it.

Very few manufactured products ever compete with each other just on price/brand, except when the Chinese (illegally usually) clone things.

I never mentioned model clones. So, Mr B's point is they compete by not competing...great stuff.

I'll have to bow to your obviously far superior knowledge of Canikon's product and marketing strategies.

 

[CT]

The 5DMK2 must have seriously impacted sales of the 1DS3, so I can see that as a lot of the logic for the reasoning behind this change.

We'll have to wait for some decent sample images to see how the 1DX compares with 1.3 X crop bodies for those who would traditionally have opted for the cropper, but Canon must surely be aware of the massive following the 1.3 X crop has and it's hard to believe they'd be dumb enough to shoot themselves in the foot with this and leave those users feeling short changed.

I might have been interested in a 30mp 1DMK4 for the full frame benefit and still offering great crop advantages, but this throws me a bit of a curve. One of the few things I miss about the 1 series is the ability to focus at f/8 with converters, and this is surely going to make long lens users think twice about the 1DX?

 

[desantnik]

I never mentioned model clones. So, Mr B's point is they compete by not competing...great stuff.

They compete for market share and $$$$ by offering different products, not the same product.

The market share is a portion "pro DSLR" sales, not a portion of "12mp full frame sensor with 51 AF points", the latter is just their product differentiator, not their target market bracket.

Clearly whatever technical spec they come up with has to be explained to be superior to the competition, but what we have learnt is that its no longer defined by bigger numbers, its defined by effectiveness as a tool... which might be decided by bigger numbers, or might not.

Certainly nobody in manufacturing sits there and says "my competition have made this thing, we shall have one exactly the same!" because in that lies failure because unless its a really simple thing, you will just be playing delayed catch up and thats bad when you are wanting to be seen to be the pinnacle of technology.

 

[woof woof]

Certainly nobody in manufacturing sits there and says "my competition have made this thing, we shall have one exactly the same!"

Oh yes they do. Sometimes it might be an exact copy and sometimes it might be something that performs exectly the same function, either way it happens. I once worked for a manufacturer who produced a great many clones one of which, quite amusingly, wasn't an exact copy as such but a mirror image of the competitions kit

 

[John Hendry]

Just all to much for me, to much spec that will be out of date in a couple of years and the price not for me. Will have to wait for the 5D mark3.

All the best

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Oh yes they do. Sometimes it might be an exact copy and sometimes it might be something that performs exectly the same function, either way it happens.

Welcome to the world of Apple and Samsung.

Interesting to note that the rumours surrounding Nikon's D800 highlight a Canonesque headline-grabbing pixels count, rather than the traditional Nikon route of "smaller" higher iso sensors.

It'll be amusing if Canon have gone chasing Nikon's high iso market share and they in turn have ditched this to go after Canon's "more pixels equals better" customer base

 

[IGADIZ]

The problem with more megapixel is one called diffraction....

 

[Moreorless]

If they did, that would be a first for them.

So far, AFAIK, Nikon are the only ones to *directly* reuse technology in that way and its perfectly possible that Canon marketing people saw that as a mistake rather than a victory - "so you didn't sell expensive D3 bodies because you made a cut price non-pro bodied one.... why?"

Maybe the 7D is an example of some movement from the traditional Canon position ("you want Pro AF, you buy the top of the range item, nothing else"), but I'd be surprised to see much more.

The 1DX has some very clever first to market AF features, it will take quite a while before those filter down, they need to recover their investment costs - assuming of course that the margin on a 1DX is greater than that of a lesser body.

Canon do have a strong history of filtering down sensors though which is what I was talking about rather than most of the features as with the D700/D3. Just passing the 1DX sensor down and keeping the build, FPS and AF in the pro body would be very much inline with what they did with the 7D.

 

[vaizki]

I don't think Canon puts the 1D sensors into the lower spec bodies, but of course the technology used to create them filters down. And some technology seems to filter up from the consumer cameras to the 1D series (causing loud groans in some cases).

With the big price tag on flagship cameras, Canon can afford to do some extravagant sensors even if manufacturing yields are low and per-unit costs high. I don't know what the margins are in each category per unit, but taking unit sales into account I'm sure Canon makes its dime from the consumer cameras. But of course flagship cameras drive R&D and provide high profile visibility that marketing needs to push the real earners into the sales channel and consumer hands.

When they start putting together the next 5D and 7D, they're going to want something on the sensor side where the production scales, yields are good and the per-unit price quickly sinks. Then they will take that same design, optimize it even more for efficient production, cut the readout speeds in half or something and dump it into the x00D series. That's where the volume is and where they can recoup R&D cost without putting 5k price tags on bodies.

 

[BLZeebub]

Welcome to the world of Apple and Samsung.

Interesting to note that the rumours surrounding Nikon's D800 highlight a Canonesque headline-grabbing pixels count, rather than the traditional Nikon route of "smaller" higher iso sensors.

It'll be amusing if Canon have gone chasing Nikon's high iso market share and they in turn have ditched this to go after Canon's "more pixels equals better" customer base

There are some differences here, not least Android and iOS, but the main difference here is that both are competing in a relatively new market -especially where tablets are concerned. In Apple's own pathetic attempt to stifle competition they state you that will remain with the system you buy into first. That said Apple havent invented anything new for about 20 years but are amazingly good at reinventing square wheels and selling a repackaged idea to the masses as something new at a very healthy profit...

Nice to see you agree with Canon and Nikon using different products to target a similar market though.

Canon do have a strong history of filtering down sensors though which is what I was talking about rather than most of the features as with the D700/D3. Just passing the 1DX sensor down and keeping the build, FPS and AF in the pro body would be very much inline with what they did with the 7D.

I really cant see the 1DX sensor appearing in a lower spec camera but i can see the technology filtering to a degree. Canon has the advantage of creating their own complete package whereas Nikon make use of what is available and differentiate accordingly.

B->

 

[Moreorless]

I really cant see the 1DX sensor appearing in a lower spec camera but i can see the technology filtering to a degree. Canon has the advantage of creating their own complete package whereas Nikon make use of what is available and differentiate accordingly.

B->

We saw it with the 1Ds/5D mk2, maybe wasnt the best move in that case but I'd say that maybe as much a comment on how much value high MP users place on ultra high end AF and a large body.

Unless the 1DX sensor is a good deal more expensive it seems like it would be less of a risk to filter it down since the users it seems to be aimed at are more likely to value its other advantges such as FPS, AF and build.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Nice to see you agree with Canon and Nikon using different products to target a similar market though.

I'm not and they don't. The point is (and this has been covered ad nauseum) is that the manufacturers use features to differentiate their products, they both still produce dslr cameras.

Using "using different products to target a similar market" would mean something like Nikon's product in the pro-photographer being the D3s and Canon countering this by marketing a video-only camera targeted at the same customer base.

Essentially both companies produce "identical" products, the devil, as the saying goes, is in the detail......

 

[BLZeebub]

I'm not and they don't. The point is (and this has been covered ad nauseum) is that the manufacturers use features to differentiate their products, they both still produce dslr cameras.

Using "using different products to target a similar market" would mean something like Nikon's product in the pro-photographer being the D3s and Canon countering this by marketing a video-only camera targeted at the same customer base.

Essentially both companies produce "identical" products, the devil, as the saying goes, is in the detail......

Yes you are correct they both produe DSLR's but thats somewhat a wide ranging statement and in no way are Canon/Nikon (let alone the rest)producing 'identical' products. My statement was that they dont make identical products in the various market ranges, if that is wrong then show me what Nikon have that is identical to a 1DMK4 and what Canon has that is identical to a D700. The devil is indeed in the details and the details result in products that overlap but are not identical. By your staement all DSLR's are the same?

B->

 

[StewartR]

the manufacturers use features to differentiate their products

they dont make identical products in the various market ranges

Guys, you're agreeing with one another. Please quit this bickering. Or go do it somewhere else, so that those of us who wanted to talk about the 1D X can do so. Thanks.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Yes you are correct they both produe DSLR's but thats somewhat a wide ranging statement and in no way are Canon/Nikon (let alone the rest)producing 'identical' products. My statement was that they dont make identical products in the various market ranges, if that is wrong then show me what Nikon have that is identical to a 1DMK4 and what Canon has that is identical to a D700. The devil is indeed in the details and the details result in products that overlap but are not identical. By your staement all DSLR's are the same?

B->

Your missing the point, are you saying Canon and Nikon should both produce bodies with identical specifications? So Nikon bring out, say, the D800, and Canon slavishy copy it - where would the benefit be in that for either the companies or the consumer?

The point is that the 1D4 is Canon's interpretation of what a pro DSLR should be like and the D3s is Nikon's. Similarly the 5DII is how Canon see the lower pro/high end consumer market and the D700 is what Nikon have decided the market wants.

 

[BLZeebub]

Your missing the point, are you saying Canon and Nikon should both produce bodies with identical specifications? So Nikon bring out, say, the D800, and Canon slavishy copy it - where would the benefit be in that for either the companies or the consumer?

The point is that the 1D4 is Canon's interpretation of what a pro DSLR should be like and the D3s is Nikon's. Similarly the 5DII is how Canon see the lower pro/high end consumer market and the D700 is what Nikon have decided the market wants.

Err, no im not missing the point as I made the point that they choose to make differing products.
B-)

Btw stewart im just politely replying to a conversation but im happy to agree to disagree. As for the 1DX itll make a cracking olympics camera and I suspect that is the target and not so much a direct mk4 replacement.

 

[Flash In The Pan]

Err, no im not missing the point as I made the point that they choose to make differing products.
B-)

Did you read my last post?

 

[Splog]

Did you read my last post?

Do you mean....

Could this be the first one to stump everyone?

From the guess the movie thread!

 

[DemiLion]

As for the 1DX itll make a cracking olympics camera and I suspect that is the target and not so much a direct mk4 replacement.

Eh? That bit just doesn't make sense. It is the direct replacement for the MkIV.

 

[NaturS]

To quote the Canon press release....

the EOS-1D X will be a high-speed multimedia juggernaut replacing both the EOS-1Ds Mark III and EOS-1D Mark IV models in Canon’s lineup

 

[BLZeebub]

As its ff and not aps-h but remains at a similar mp it aint a straight foreward upgrade for most..... As noted by a whole host of posts on the subject.

So no, for me and a number of others its not a direct replacement no matter what the press release says.

B-)

 

[gpa]

Very nice spec but nothing spectacular, ISO if it is indeed 2 stops better than the MK1V will bring it bang on or thereabouts with the current D3s, slight benefit over the D3s in pixel density, 14 frames a sec with no auto focus is nothing more than a party trick and F8 no auto focus option is a real mistake. Don't see mK1V owners rushing to change. I do find it funny they rush to release the specs but you cannot buy it for 6 months. I think as someone else has said it is pushing for the Olympic market.

 

[KIPAX]

Very nice spec but nothing spectacular

from 1.3 crop to full frame.. more megapixels and better iso handling... i have seen less spectacular upgrades.. this is quite somehting

,ISO if it is indeed 2 stops better than the MK1V

if? are you suggesting there lying?

will bring it bang on or thereabouts with the current D3s,

i doubt many canon owners looking to upgrade will care what the nikon can do

slight benefit over the D3s in pixel density, 14 frames a sec with no auto focus is nothing more than a party trick

agreed.. so its 12 fps really.. no great shakes over the 10fps IMHO

and F8 no auto focus option is a real mistake.

eh? oh you mean with an extender on? lets just clarify the camera will autofocus at f8 its with an extender it wont.

Don't see mK1V owners rushing to change.

well i do a lot of low light photogrpahy and indoor photogrpahy non of which require an extender but does require good iso handling... my excellent 35m lens will become my main wide angle and my really excellent 135 sometimes too long indoors will now be perfect for most indoor sports..

personally i cant wair to get rid of the mkIV and get this.. I know many others who are as impatient as me


however i will be keeping the other mkIV for use with my 400mm lens that doesnt really get used in high iso situations and i dont want to lose the focul length

I do find it funny they rush to release the specs but you cannot buy it for 6 months. I think as someone else has said it is pushing for the Olympic market.

same as they did with the mkIV.. are you a mkIV user?

 

[scottthehat]

kipax the camera will not autofocus if you have a 500f4 or 600f4 and a 2x tc or extenders like the lower spec canons whereas all the other 1d series all af with a 500f4 or 600f4 and a 2x tc or extender.
read this.
http://www.birdphotographers.net/fo...30-Canon-EOS-1D-X-Digital-Camera-Body-Details

 

[KIPAX]

kipax the camera will not autofocus if you have a 500f4 or 600f4 and a 2x tc or extenders like the lower spec canons whereas all the other 1d series all af with a 500f4 or 600f4 and a 2x tc or extender.

isnt that what I said?

the camera will autofocus at f8 without an extender.. but people keep posting that it wont.. look at the post i replied to.. no mention of extender... just plain simple wont autofocus at f8... and thats missinformation ..

what part of my resply was wrong?

 

[scottthehat]

eh? oh you mean with an extender on? lets just clarify the camera will autofocus at f8 its with an extender it wont.

yes thats right withan extender on it wont af, but yes if you set what ever lens you have on to f8 of course it will focus because focusing uses the widest apature of the lens at the given focal length.
my apoligies i will read better next time chill

 

[KIPAX]

yes thats right withan extender on it wont af, but yes if you set what ever lens you have on to f8 of course it will focus because focusing uses the widest apature of the lens at the given focal length.
my apoligies i will read better next time

sorry its just winding me up how people keep posting it wont focus at f8

not everyone will use or want an extender.. as mentioned my main reason for buying it is indoor sports use and losing focul length on a couple of lenses is gonna be a bonus..

 

[scottthehat]

sorry its just winding me up how people keep posting it wont focus at f8

not everyone will use or want an extender.. as mentioned my main reason for buying it is indoor sports use and losing focul length on a couple of lenses is gonna be a bonus..

no probs, and i think if its as good as the mk4 its should be cracking, and the f8 thing can be a pain for birders but im sure they will put a firmware out to enable it else they might lose some people to the darkside if the new nikons are as the specs say.

 

[Flats]

I can see that this means they're going to stop producing the 1DS mk3. Will the 1D mk4 also finish?

 

[scottthehat]

I can see that this means they're going to stop producing the 1DS mk3. Will the 1D mk4 also finish?

at somepoint a would think so maybe next year.

 

[vaizki]

I can see that this means they're going to stop producing the 1DS mk3. Will the 1D mk4 also finish?

I think they've stopped producing the 1Ds3 months ago.. The 1D4 will probably keep getting made until the 1Dx is released and will be stocked by lots of stores even after that. The new AF system etc means there's going to be a learning curve going into the 1Dx.

 

[gpa]

from 1.3 crop to full frame.. more megapixels and better iso handling... i have seen less spectacular upgrades.. this is quite somehting

if? are you suggesting there lying?

Not at all, just aware it cannot be confirmed until the camera comes out.

i doubt many canon owners looking to upgrade will care what the nikon can do

I'm not suggesting they are, but on the issue of high ISO rest assured Canon do care, it is the reason they chose to go to full Frame in order to get that increase.

agreed.. so its 12 fps really.. no great shakes over the 10fps IMHO

Agreed

eh? oh you mean with an extender on? lets just clarify the camera will autofocus at f8 its with an extender it wont.

Yep with a convertor

well i do a lot of low light photogrpahy and indoor photogrpahy non of which require an extender but does require good iso handling... my excellent 35m lens will become my main wide angle and my really excellent 135 sometimes too long indoors will now be perfect for most indoor sports..

personally i cant wair to get rid of the mkIV and get this.. I know many others who are as impatient as me


however i will be keeping the other mkIV for use with my 400mm lens that doesnt really get used in high iso situations and i dont want to lose the focul length

Well that's how you work, I still don't see many MK1V owners dumping their camera's and paying some 2k+ extra for the x version. I'm not knocking the camera I just don't think it's ground breaking, further more while on the subject of what Canon objectives are, I'm sure one of them is to capture ex Nikon users and I don't see many of them jumping either.

same as they did with the mkIV.. are you a mkIV user?

Nope

 

[IGADIZ]

Got my confirmation Email.. I am booked for a nice little hands on play for the 25th at 19:00...I will try to sneak a CF car into it. Although, I would imagine security is going to be tight and I doubt i will be successful. I Can't wait.

 

[DemiLion]

Not at all, just aware it cannot be confirmed until the camera comes out.

The camera is already out and in use!