Candid photography involving children in public

That looks like a contradiction? :shrug: The quote clearly states that individuals processing data for recreational uses are exempt from the dpa principles.

I must admit Les that I interpret your quote the way HJ has just explained it.

*ninja edit*

It says data processed for the purposes of of the individual or their families' affairs are exempt. As i see it, that means that as long as the person taking the photo is using it for personal reasons it's exempt. Not the subject matter being a family member.

Panzer
 
I suggest anyone who is concerned about the DPA call the helpline and ask, you'll get the same response I did - the DPA doesn't apply to individuals storing data for personal reasons. I specifically asked about an amateur tog taking candids in public and the person I spoke to was positive the DPA didn't apply as it was a "domestic use".

Anyone care to phone them and report back?

WRT to HRA as has been stated several times the case was about the publication of the photographs, not that they were taken.

since they failed to afford her adequate protection from the publication of photographs taken without her knowledge by paparazzi

Bold is my emphasis. The ruling doesn't in any way shape or form restrict photography in a public place.

Again, I think you are incorrect regarding capture of images, if the image is 'captured' digitally, then it is stored? That's why (probably) togs have asked to delete images from their cards under data protection rules.

This is just complete hogwash.
 
Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual's personal, family or household affairs (including recreationalpurposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts 2 and 3.

This is how I read the quote:
Personal data processed by an individual only for the purposes of that individual's personal or family or household affairs (including recreational purposes) are exempt from the data protection principles and the provisions of Parts 2 and 3.

Let, you seem to be reading it differently to the rest of us...
 
I would also point out that the Data Protection Act 2002 is for the Isle of Man :nuts:

This pdf on the ICO website:

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/docume...cation_exemptions_-_self-assessment_guide.pdf

includes this piece of advice at the top right of page 7:

Individuals are exempt from notification if the only data processed
are for personal, domestic and household affairs (including recreational
purposes).
Examples might be a personal address list, Christmas card list or data
held in connection with a hobby
.
 
Les, strangely, that is the same Linda Hamilton that also states :

The lack of any coherent law of privacy in the UK means that photographers are not only free to take photographs of people in public places, but they can use those photos as they wish, including for commercial gain
.
.
....snip.....
.
.
There is also a fair possibility that photographs of people may be subject to the Data Protection Act
.
.
....snip....
.
.
The Act contains an exception for processing undertaken with a view to publication of any journalistic or artistic material, and much photography will probably be protected by this exception.
 
That would explain why you need a model release form if you plan to sell the images, to appease the dpa which otherwise does not apply.
 
Nah, a model release has nothing to do with the DPA and was around long before the DPA existed. A model release basically gives permission to use the images in the the ways specified by the release and also provides restrictions on the use.
 
Les, strangely, that is the same Linda Hamilton that also states :

It's Linda Macpherson?

Yep, I agree, it's quite clear (and so am I) , and if you read her articles it makes it quite clear the statement ' The law in this country stands at this present time it is not illegal to take a candid photo of anyone in a public place' is complete and utter hogwash.

We can argue till the cows come home regarding interpretations around the HRA and data protection act, I'm quite comfortable around my interpretation.

I suspect a lot of the problems togs have experienced regarding what they can or cannot photograph is due to reading (and believing) such statements, and I repeat, statements like that are irresponsible and possibly dangerous.

And Linda Mcpherson in her articles is quite clear that data protection involves amateur photographers as well as pros.
And that clause 36 (33 in 2002 act) is an exception when taking photos of your own family (and that recreational purposes means for example shooting your own kids at a football match), it's definitely not a get out clause for all amateur photographers.

Your comment- The Act contains an exception for processing undertaken with a view to publication of any journalistic or artistic material, and much photography will probably be protected by this exception. - if you read on, it mentions 'in the public interest' therefore covers journalistic issues, that are published 'in the public interest.
 
Les would you care to explain how your understanding of the DPA fits in with the information provided by the ICO given in post #284?
 
Sorry, I meant Linda MacPherson (Must have been thinking of Terminator when I said Linda Hamilton ;))

So you're saying she's completely contradicting herself and from the text youre reading from, you say she's basically saying that her own Photographers Rights guide is completely wrong?

I think someone should tell her then.
 
Les - could you clarify your legal qualifications please? Not specifically relevant to the thread, but as you are advising others on the law I think it might be sensible for you to clarify this, so that people are aware that in fact you have training in such matters. Apologies in advance if you have already done so, and I have missed this. :)
 
Sorry, I meant Linda MacPherson (Must have been thinking of Terminator when I said Linda Hamilton ;))

So you're saying she's completely contradicting herself and from the text youre reading from, you say she's basically saying that her own Photographers Rights guide is completely wrong?

I think someone should tell her then.

No not at all, her guide is excellent, and details all the legalities regarding photography , including HRA and DPA, and I dont see any contadictions?
 
Les - could you clarify your legal qualifications please? Not specifically relevant to the thread, but as you are advising others on the law I think it might be sensible for you to clarify this, so that people are aware that in fact you have training in such matters. Apologies in advance if you have already done so, and I have missed this. :)


No I'm not advising others on the law, just repeating what I have read or looked up , like others who are contributing (yourself included)
 
No I'm not advising others on the law, just repeating what I have read or looked up , like others who are contributing (yourself included)

Les - there is one important difference between us though. On each occasion I have commented on the law, I have before posting run that comment past my Husband, who is a qualified barrister and practises law on a daily basis. I would not presume to post an unchecked opinion on an area in which I have no qualification, without making it extremely clear that it is simply opinion - NOT fact. Ben has previously looked into, and clarified the situation regarding the HRA & DPA for the membership on here - his conclusions on the subject were posted at that point. There are many contradictory articles available online these days - indeed many within his profession feel that the amount of information available online these days for any Tom, **** or Harry to read and draw conclusion from, is dangerous, as false impressions are easily gained and then spread via such media as this forum.

Please don't read this as a personal attack - it's not intended to be in any way - it's simply an attempt to make clear the dangers associated with unqualified individuals attempting to advise others on what they may, or may not do, in the eyes of the law. :)
 
I suggest anyone who is concerned about the DPA call the helpline and ask, you'll get the same response I did - the DPA doesn't apply to individuals storing data for personal reasons. I specifically asked about an amateur tog taking candids in public and the person I spoke to was positive the DPA didn't apply as it was a "domestic use".

Anyone care to phone them and report back?

WRT to HRA as has been stated several times the case was about the publication of the photographs, not that they were taken.



Bold is my emphasis. The ruling doesn't in any way shape or form restrict photography in a public place.



This is just complete hogwash.


My italics-it's not hogwash


The case also showed how data protection laws can be used as a sword as well as a shield. Taking a digital photograph of a person involves “processing” personal data under s.1 of theData Protection Act 1998. Although there are exceptions, such as journalism, literature and art, processing of data generally requires consent to be lawful10. Naomi Campbell had not given her consent and was able to successfully claim damages underthe Data Protection Act as a result.
 
Les - there is one important difference between us though. On each occasion I have commented on the law, I have before posting run that comment past my Husband, who is a qualified barrister and practises law on a daily basis. I would not presume to post an unchecked opinion on an area in which I have no qualification, without making it extremely clear that it is simply opinion - NOT fact. Ben has previously looked into, and clarified the situation regarding the HRA & DPA for the membership on here - his conclusions on the subject were posted at that point. There are many contradictory articles available online these days - indeed many within his profession feel that the amount of information available online these days for any Tom, **** or Harry to read and draw conclusion from, is dangerous, as false impressions are easily gained and then spread via such media as this forum.

Please don't read this as a personal attack - it's not intended to be in any way - it's simply an attempt to make clear the dangers associated with unqualified individuals attempting to advise others on what they may, or may not do, in the eyes of the law. :)

I will repeat myself, I am not advising others, no more or less than you are, folk read (or not) whatever comments are made, and make their own decisions?
 
Naomi Campbell had not given her consent and was able to successfully claim damages underthe Data Protection Act as a result.
Once again Les it's all about publication... has that penny really not dropped yet?
 
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE guys can we leave the law alone now? We seem to have established that no-one contributing to the legal argument on this thread has any qualification in their own right to do so. I have posted the opinion of someone who DOES have qualification to clarify things - as I explained before, my Husband is a qualified Barrister (called to the bar in 1995) and a degree in law from the University of Wolverhampton. If people choose to accept his clarification of the issue or not that's up to them, but for people to be interpreting the law wrongly and then posting that on here - worded as fact in several cases - then that is going to do nothing but harm all round.

:)
 
Once again Les it's all about publication... has that penny really not dropped yet?


Sorry, you argued that taking and processing were separate issues, this paragraph suggests they are the same.
 
I don't mean to be blunt but you are reading her guide and interpreting it totally wrong. You can carry on posting it till the cows come home but it doesn't change the fact you are reading it wrong....


How am I reading it wrong?

I'm sorry I see no contradiction in what I've said to what she states?

Here's the article, in case anyone has missed it

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/media/UKPhotographersRights.pdf

Excellent reading.
 
Sorry, you argued that taking and processing were separate issues, this paragraph suggests they are the same.

Do you believe Ms Campbell would have even brought a case, let alone won it if the article and photos had not been published?
 
Do you believe Ms Campbell would have even brought a case, let alone won it if the article and photos had not been published?


That's not the point I was making, the article tends to refute your proposition that taking and processing are separate?
 
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE guys can we leave the law alone now? We seem to have established that no-one contributing to the legal argument on this thread has any qualification in their own right to do so. I have posted the opinion of someone who DOES have qualification to clarify things - as I explained before, my Husband is a qualified Barrister (called to the bar in 1995) and a degree in law from the University of Wolverhampton. If people choose to accept his clarification of the issue or not that's up to them, but for people to be interpreting the law wrongly and then posting that on here - worded as fact in several cases - then that is going to do nothing but harm all round.

:)


I agree, I'll leave the link to Linda McPhersons guidelines, which includes much of the debate.

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/media/UKPhotographersRights.pdf

The follow up questions are of interest also

http://www.sirimo.co.uk/ukpr.php/2004/11/19/uk_photographers_rights_guide#c5305



Myself and pxl8 could go on all night (and day) point scoring, which serves no purpose/ or contributes to the debate, so my apologies for continuing it at length.
 
:clap:I will firstly congratulate all who have contributed to this thread and made it such a good read it has it all much like those epic hollywood films .... an emotional roller coaster, villans, heros, comedy and much much more.

I am a parent and as stated by others resent the fact that I have not been able to record certain events in which my children have taken part i.e. school plays, presentations etc. This I feel is due to controlling and manipulative persons passing laws/bye laws/legislation etc. to justify ther own ends where common sense should/could be used instead.

I fully apreciate that others have a right to their opinions and beliefs but the quoting of laws in a way to present them as fact is, I feel grossly wrong. "The law is a ass" and this is borne out IMHO by most of the "legal" quotes posted. In a country that has fought (at great loss of lives) two World Wars to preserve our freedom of speech and expression allowing us to freely persue hobbies and interests within a democratic process the legislation being introduce is slowly eroding our choices. :rules:The law in this country is "innocent until proven guilty" (or so I thought?) and to put in place legislation contradicting this is IMHO WRONG! I wonder if the avatar of one who has so strongly argued the legals is indicative of their reasons? :thinking:Are we heading towards a dictatorship?

:help:If you need a clear indication of your rights for street photography I would point you to the article in the Feb 2008 issue of Digital Camera magazine as this explains things clearly, consisely and in laymans terms cutting out all the legal jargon. It also addresses the OP of "Photographing kids in park" and deals with the issue of covert photography of kids. My opinion on this is that common sense :bat::Dshould prevail, I have been lucky in all the years of pursuing my photography hobby that I have not come across angry, irrational parents/gardians:cuckoo: and overzealous officials. My comments are not meant as any sort of attack towards individuals (although I am sure I won't get away without some rebuke) but I do feel that many of the posts show how media, politicians and people in the public eye affect public opinion and this in turn makes changes in our way of life not always for the better. If you have a strong belief then make sure you are ready for the consequences and that you have assessed the issues from all other angles.

[S1]Team Sony[/S1]
 
Personally i think the matter of legallity (while vital) shouldn't even come even come into a thread like this. We live in a society that places constraints on our how we act, whether we like it or not. Its called democracy. These constraints are brought about not only by laws but by public opinion expressed more and more by the media whether good or bad we have to accept them to some degree.

The simple fact is that it is seen as unacceptable to take photographs of children not known to the photographer without express permission of a parent or guardian.

As a parent i would feel extremely uncomfortable if someone was taking clandestine photos of my kids.

Plainly not acceptable, take photos of wildlife instead folks ... or have your own kids...
 
But why would you feel uncomfortable? Do you think everyone taking a picture could be a paedophile?
 
I would seriuosly question the reason someone had for photographing children unknown to them, paedophile is the extreme end of a very wide spectrum of unacceptable behavior, so no i wouldnt assume they are a paedophile. But would still rightly or wrongly take the stand that something dodgy was going on... i'm a parent, my kids are my life. I dont think i'm any different from most parents, this is the emotional spagetti that engulfs this issue.

Secondly and just as importantly we all have a right to privacy dont we?

However i do take the point that school plays 'et al' are taking a point a little too far. I'm reffering to street candids of totally unconnected subjects.
 
I would seriuosly question the reason someone had for photographing children unknown to them, paedophile is the extreme end of a very wide spectrum of unacceptable behavior, so no i wouldnt assume they are a paedophile. But would still rightly or wrongly take the stand that something dodgy was going on... i'm a parent, my kids are my life. I dont think i'm any different from most parents, this is the emotional spagetti that engulfs this issue.

Secondly and just as importantly we all have a right to privacy dont we?

However i do take the point that school plays 'et al' are taking a point a little too far. I'm reffering to street candids of totally unconnected subjects.

As we've established, you don't have a right to privacy in public, hence the name....public. You have a right to privacy in your own private areas, ie home etc, but when you're in public, it's exactly that, you're in public.

But you'd take the stand that something dodgy was going on. Why? Just because theyre taking a photo. Why would you automatically assume that? Notice I mean you don't wonder IF something might be dodgy, you automatically assume it is. Is it not reasonable to think that a photographer (denoted by high end photography equipment, not just a camera phone), that they are taking the photo for the purposes of photography?
Understandably you want to protect your children from any harm, but to automatically assume something dodgy is going on, is just reacting to scaremongering and being unnecessarily overprotective.

By the way I'm talking about openly taking candids from a fair distance, not hiding in the bushes ;)
 
I think it's important to remember that a photograph is more than its content. It can document society, capture a decisive moment, beauty, sadness, happiness, tradegy, tenderness, cruelty and so on.

You have to see beyond a photographer simply taking a candid snap of a random member of the public (child or adult) and appreciate that they are trying to tell a story and share something with the viewer. Shooting candid is a great way to do this because the subject isn't acting or posing for the shot and you can capture a moment of genuine emotion that will (hopefully) tell a story.
 
Blimey - monster thread!!

I have no qualms about people photographing children (or any other animal) in public. There is mass hysteria and paranoia surrounding the subject. If i point a lens at a child am i a paedophile? OF COURSE NOT - HOW RIDICULOUS!! If i were i would much more likely be creeping around swimming room changing rooms with a mobile phone.

Come on people, just because we are living in a 'nanny state' lets not lose our ability to think rationally and lets start behaving like sensible adults. once the idiot mob is given its head Paediatricians get lynched!!!!!

BTW, the DPA is an utterly un-enforceable pile of BS. IMHO it should apply to government agencies only (and I trust that point has been succinctly made?). Good - lets move on

:D
 
I understand the both points made, but you cant legislate or rationalise emotions, i dare say i am pandering to the scaremongering of the media, but you must see that the vast majority of the public have the same veiw. as photographers in a democratic society we have to make the choice about what is generally acceptable to document and what isn't and be prepered to accept the conciquences of our actions.

By being inconsiderate of other peoples privacy only gives photographers bad press, its a complex issue that has as many different cases for and against. The entire context of how, where and what is happening in the scene being photographed, has a massive input into how acceptable it is to photograph. No rules or legislation can cover this and it is down to human reason to decide the best answer at that moment.
 
What exactly is privacy in a public place?

My opinion is that anything you do in a public place isn't private beyond anyone within line of sight or earshot and to think otherwise is somewhat naive. Therefore taking a photo doesn't affect the amount privacy that someone already did or didn't have. But publishing that photo would - because it opens the moment up to an audience who would not of otherwise seen it.
 
Myself, if I am taking photo's of my little boy or any of our friends children (with the parents knowledge) and some other children are captured within the image ie at the playground. Then I have no problem with that, as long as the other kids are just part of the composition of the photo and not the main focus/subject of the photo. I think this has to be accepted in general, otherwise you would never be able to take photos of your kids in the playground or at the beach etc.
However, I would feel uncomfortable (due to public concern and the actions of a few sick individuals) taking photo's where someone elses child/children were the main composition of the photo.
An example of this, is my little boys school, who (I'm glad to say) often allow parents to take photo's of their kids whilst performing in a school production. In this situation, it is very often impossible to exclude all of the other children. Plus to do so would completely destroy the meaning of the photo. And I am sure that all parents know that their kids will probably end up being included in the many photo's being taken. At the same time, I wouldn't take a photo of someone elses kids building a sand castle on the beach, as they are now the main focus and composition of the picture.
I think alot depends upon your intentions and the compositional subject of your photo. Obviously, if a parent specifically asked me not to include their child then I would completely respect their wishes. Even if it meant having to stop taking photo's, as I believe every parent has the right to protect their kids. I hope this all makes sense as it is a very sticky subject which envelopes a huge range of scenarios.
 
It's a thing I have never done, and I think years ago it would be seen as just taking pictures. But times have changed and I think it's a NO NO now, which is sad in a way.
 
but you must see that the vast majority of the public have the same veiw.

I don't believe that is true, but in fact the people with a negative view are the ones who speak up - the many who don't give a flying toss on the matter don't have any urge or reason to defend it. You are quoting a misrepresentation of statistics.

An old lesson I was taught when working in a shop: A happy customer will go home and not dwell on their shopping experience. A disgruntled customer will tell everyone they know about how terrible it was, and write a letter of complaint to the head office.
I have found this to be an extremely true principle in almost every facet of life!
 
As we've established, you don't have a right to privacy in public, hence the name....public. You have a right to privacy in your own private areas, ie home etc, but when you're in public, it's exactly that, you're in public.

;)

Sorry to be pedantic about this, but it's not the case, without going over all the previous arguments, Linda Macpherson made it quite clear, 'There are many legal restrictions on the right to take a photograph, and it would be more correct to say one is free to take photographs, except when the law provides otherwise'

Now before anyone gets on their high horse to suggest I'm not qualified to make such a statement, it's a direct quote from a person who is a University lecturer in Law.
 
Personally i think the matter of legallity (while vital) shouldn't even come even come into a thread like this. We live in a society that places constraints on our how we act, whether we like it or not. Its called democracy. These constraints are brought about not only by laws but by public opinion expressed more and more by the media whether good or bad we have to accept them to some degree.

The simple fact is that it is seen as unacceptable to take photographs of children not known to the photographer without express permission of a parent or guardian.

As a parent i would feel extremely uncomfortable if someone was taking clandestine photos of my kids.

Plainly not acceptable, take photos of wildlife instead folks ... or have your own kids...

I think you have made some excellent points there, particularly regarding restraints on how we act, we do live in a democracy, and laws/ethical issues are driven by the will of the people, however unpalateable they may be to some folk.

And I see the reasonable custom of seeking consent before taking an image of a child as not taking away rights, but giving additional rights to the child and their parents i.e. the right to be photographed or not.
 
Well Les as we're being pedantic...

You're quoting out of context. That quote is taken from the opening paragraph of the UKPR pdf and is a general statement of the overall situation for photographers. So instead let's pick a quote from the section of the document that does specifically address privacy issues. Try this one on for size...

The lack of any coherent law of privacy in the UK means that photographers are not only free to take photographs of people in public places, but they can use those photos as they wish, including for commerical gain.

Ahem...
 
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