Can you think like a criminal?

I wouldn't need to try and flog them down the pub. I already had an order for them beforehand.

the gear will be nicked to order and targeted specifically

The pre-order idea doesn't float too much with me, as unlike a painting, I would think most people ordering would want to use the equipment in general public.

As an aside, very little property is "stolen to order". I have only known it happen with some of the most high-value burglaries and frauds, but occasionally it does happen - but not as often as most people would think.

The chances of these items being stolen to order is so remote I'd discount it.

I'm guessing it may not have been stolen to order, but that the thief had a buyer or buyers lined up.

This is an interesting idea which hadn't occurred to me. But it doesn't feel right to me.

I can imagine that there's a sizeable "market" for stealing cars to order. Cars are ubiquitous; there are plenty of opportunities for a thief to hone their skills; and there must be plenty of customers. But high-end photographic equipment is a different kettle of fish, surely. There aren't that many opportunities to steal; and it's pretty much impossible to build up a "CV". So if you wanted some exotic lenses without the tiresome bother of having to pay for them, how would you find a "supplier"? And why would you believe that he could get them for you if he's never done anything like that before? (And he hasn't.)

I could be wrong of course. But it's reassuring that Photo Plod and CT also think it's unlikely.
 
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Why not just rent the car with the fake driving licence? I have a sneaky feeling if you try to insure a car thats already insured (theres a database) it'll ping up as a possible fraud. Not that it's a great idea to tell people how to do it online.

Because to rent a car Retail, the minimum you will need is a drivers license, 2x recent utility bills in that drivers name and a large (£100-500) deposit + the cost of the rental on a credit/debit card in that name. Quite hard to get all the info, including a picture that matches!

Much easier to hire a car through the insurance company, where you just need to show your insurance certificate, driving license and a minimal deposit on a card or even cash.

ANd the insurance database does not flag up when cars are insured twice - what if you where buying a used car from me and where picking it up tonight? You would insure it now, but I am not cancelling mine until you have taken the car, so it will be insured twice for a while.

Hope you get this sorted Stewart, can you do a search with the serial number of the lenses like you do an exif search? May not work now, but may in a few months...?
 
My assumption is, (please say it is true), that you have already informed the insurance companies and police about this hypothetical situation.

I do hope that this has not affected the ability for you to supply items to your customers.


Unfortunately (and this is not knocking the police) there is little that the police can really help out a victim in this position.
There are laws to protect people from the police snooping on them.

A long time back, I crashed my car into a van. I was coming off a motorway, and down a sloping off-ramp in the rain, and the car just wouldn't stop. Really messed up the front of my car, small dent (almost non-visible) in the van. We exchanged details at the scene, and I admitted that the accident was because of me (although I blamed lack of traction on the road).
Day after, I went into a police station to report the accident (you are meant to do it within 24 hours), and explained that the phone number I had for the gentleman wasn't working. Unfortunately the police claimed they were unable to record the incident, or give me any information that couldn't be found in the public domain (they did have a copy of the phone-book that I could look in, but couldn't find the name).
I can understand why, but surely they must be very frustrated by things like this!
 
If this is a real issue, and you can find out if the persons identity was real check facebook or other social networking sites. You'd be surprised at the stupidity of criminals :)

facebook is a good shout... some people just can't live without it.

No, I wouldn't be surprised at the stupidity of some criminals. I have some amazing stories which I'll be able to share with you one day...

But I'm afraid I don't share your opinions about the value of Facebook. For example my name is not particularly common: Stewart much less common than Stuart, and there is a variant of my surname which is also much more common. But despite that there are 159 people on Facebook with the same name as me, and most of them don't share much or any information with people who aren't their 'friends'. It would be very tedious combing through them all to try to work out which one was me, with the probability of success quite low.
 
No.

in the thread mentioned in post #31. it was alluded that the receiver was a TP member

did this just go unheeded, drop off the radar, or withdrawn for risk of libel damages

if it was, seems a lots of discussion here is irrelevant as the Courier Company would be ''on the case''
That thread was closed because it wasn't going anywhere. It was degenerating into "let's slag off the postal service". It wasn't withdrawn for the risk of libel damages, because the only person who knew any of the facts (i.e. me) didn't make any accusations.
 
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Is there any way that you can put the serial numbers of these into a search facility to check whether thtey are recorded in the Exif data of any photos put on the web? If someone has either nicked these to order, or to use, then they are going to be pretty serious about taking photos, which means putting them online somewhere.
I thought of that!

But unfortunately (for Canon systems at least) the serial numbers of lenses do not get recorded in the EXIF data. The camera serial number does, so you can in principle identify stolen cameras from EXIF data, but not lenses. (And this is corroborated by the fact that Canon's AF micro-adjustment can't discriminate between two lenses of the same type.)
 
Because to rent a car Retail, the minimum you will need is a drivers license, 2x recent utility bills in that drivers name and a large (£100-500) deposit + the cost of the rental on a credit/debit card in that name. Quite hard to get all the info, including a picture that matches!

You say that as if it's hard to acquire such i.d. in someone else's name. I was at a car auction recently and looked in the glovebox of an ex-lease car to see if the service history was there. It wasn't, but what was there was a folder containing..

Current Insurance certificate
A letter from the hirer's employer
A bundle of wage slips
6 months worth of bank statements
Numerous gas and electricity bills
A copy of the lease agreement (with hirer's driving licence number)

and just for a bonus the hirer's name was Alexandra, but all the docs that could be used as a form of i.d. were either in the name "A" or "Alex".

It wouldn't exactly take a criminal mastermind to completely take that person's identity over.....
 
Stewart much less common than Stuart

Ah, derived from "Steward" and became "Stuart" with Mary Queen of Scots, I think? Sorry to digress, but I was at school with a "Stewart" and he made quite a point of it!

Anyway, this wasn't a burglary by the sort of headbangers who just grab anything they can flog for a few quid. It was set up quite carefully, and the culprit went to quite a bit of trouble to try and hide his tracks. I can think of several lines of enquiry, but there's no point discussing them here. That's up to the investigators. The gear could have been stolen to order, but I still think there's an equally good chance that the thief had a buyer for high end lenses, possibly someone who sells on through a website to a foreign jurisdiction. I hope this turns out well for you.
 
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You say that as if it's hard to acquire such i.d. in someone else's name. I was at a car auction recently and looked in the glovebox of an ex-lease car to see if the service history was there. It wasn't, but what was there was a folder containing..

Current Insurance certificate
A letter from the hirer's employer
A bundle of wage slips
6 months worth of bank statements
Numerous gas and electricity bills
A copy of the lease agreement (with hirer's driving licence number)

and just for a bonus the hirer's name was Alexandra, but all the docs that could be used as a form of i.d. were either in the name "A" or "Alex".

It wouldn't exactly take a criminal mastermind to completely take that person's identity over.....


No helping some people! But you would still need 2 things - Driving license, which would have a photo on it, and also a Credit/Debit card to pay with. Not impossible to get I agree, but it is a damn site easier to do the insurance scam!
 
No helping some people! But you would still need 2 things - Driving license, which would have a photo on it, and also a Credit/Debit card to pay with. Not impossible to get I agree, but it is a damn site easier to do the insurance scam!

Errmmm? Line one, your Insurance scam:

Firstly, you and a mate get yourself a fake driving license each, or stolen ones without photos.
 
No helping some people! But you would still need 2 things - Driving license, which would have a photo on it, and also a Credit/Debit card to pay with. Not impossible to get I agree, but it is a damn site easier to do the insurance scam!

My driving license doesn't have a photo on it and when I rent a car (adm,ittedly, only when on holiday), I pay cash.
 
No, I wouldn't be surprised at the stupidity of some criminals. I have some amazing stories which I'll be able to share with you one day...

But I'm afraid I don't share your opinions about the value of Facebook. For example my name is not particularly common: Stewart much less common than Stuart, and there is a variant of my surname which is also much more common. But despite that there are 159 people on Facebook with the same name as me, and most of them don't share much or any information with people who aren't their 'friends'. It would be very tedious combing through them all to try to work out which one was me, with the probability of success quite low.

I suppose it depends on the victims name, for my name there is only 5 people with the same name.

If you would like to send me the persons name and location they used I would be more than happy to spend a few hours searching around for the person, discretely of course.
 
Please folks, if you want to discuss the ins and outs of acquiring false ID and stealing hire cars, then could you start your own thread somewhere? It's irrelevant to the situation here. Thanks.
 
Sorry Stewart! (wrist slapped)
 
Stewart can I ask if the items stolen are the most expensive listed at the various dealers?
(ie the thief has gone for the dearest kit he/she can get their hands on) if not I would suggest they are either stolen to order or for self use.
 
In answer to your question:
1. I'd either have a buyer already in place
2. Ship said equipment abroad for someone to sell over there
3. Keep for my own use

I'd not use a credit card linked to my actual name and I'd set up redirection service to local post office depot
 
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Here's another related idea that some people might be able to help with.

It occurs to me that from time to time incidents occur such that prompt action might recover missing property, but by the time the police get involved the trail has gone cold.

So does anyone here know anything helpful (from personal knowledge please, not hearsay or supposition) about the capabilities of private investigators, and the constraints within which they must operate?
 
It occurs to me that you might ask to see a car insurance certificate when renting, most people renting lenses would have a car I would imagine, might be an additional safeguard worth implementing. You would then have a Regn No. Policy no and company
 
It occurs to me that you might ask to see a car insurance certificate when renting, most people renting lenses would have a car I would imagine, might be an additional safeguard worth implementing. You would then have a Regn No. Policy no and company

I don't have a car insurance certificate, and I also have a friend who rents lenses quite often who doesn't either, so that would count us out.
 
now get your CCTV out nail them on camera and see what the others have, i am sure there will be others.

I don't see how you can stop someone nicking your stuff if you hire it to them. Do you mark the gear permanently so it'd be worthless to sell on? Used to do that with computer equipment. You'd have a stencil and some horrible smelling paint that you'd use to mark the boxes. If you physically marked all the hire gear with an etched company name it would be much harder to sell on. Especially if it also said on it 'this equipment is never sold on!'. Probably still sell abroad though. And a b****r if you do want to sell it on...

A couple of options would be to laser etch your company name in to all of the products on the plastic areas, and the add http://www.smartwater.com/Home.aspx to them all as well so this would remain unseen by the crooks :)

someone didn't buy your stuff with a hacked ebay account then force a refund through paypal did they?!! :bang: :bang: :lol:

Did he fill out or sign any paperwork with regard to these transactions? If so it may be possible to raise latent fingerprints. The prints of yourself and anyone else at your office would need to be taken for elimination purposes.

If they paid by card, there should be some kind of paper trail through the banking system as well.

It occurs to me that you might ask to see a car insurance certificate when renting, most people renting lenses would have a car I would imagine, might be an additional safeguard worth implementing. You would then have a Regn No. Policy no and company

Sorry folks, but I'm not going to discuss what we do and don't do by way of security. I don't need any advice in this respect and there's no point in speculating in this area.
 
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I thought of that!

But unfortunately (for Canon systems at least) the serial numbers of lenses do not get recorded in the EXIF data. The camera serial number does, so you can in principle identify stolen cameras from EXIF data, but not lenses. (And this is corroborated by the fact that Canon's AF micro-adjustment can't discriminate between two lenses of the same type.)

You can register lens and camera serial numbers with CPS, even if you don't qualify for CPS membership. Might be worth asking them to keep an eye open.
 
Frank beat me to mentioning the Canon registry - all my lenses are registered even the 50mm 1.8

One thing that would help would be serial numbers, as they arn't easy to alter without damaging the lens or it being obvious. When I bought my used 100-400 I tried googling the serial number on my phone before I actually bought it and after Stewart's post about a 28-300L that had gone native I carefully thought about buying a used one privately from anywhere in the southeast!

If it was me that had obtained them though what I'd probably do is go into somewhere like LCE, look at a D3 telling the sales guy that "its what my friend has so I'm looking to change from Canon" spec it up a bit offering the lenses as part payment, as they won't fit the new Nikon and pay the difference in cash, then sell a brand new, clean non-stolen or registered-stolen D3 to get my money back and a bit on top.


PS - Obviously I don't do Nikon so if I've got it wrong please substitute D3 for 1DmkIII equivelent.
 
So does anyone here know anything helpful (from personal knowledge please, not hearsay or supposition) about the capabilities of private investigators, and the constraints within which they must operate?

Having spent several years in the security industry I'd say that PI's here in the UK are pretty much useless. However PI's can be very effective if you have significant leads overseas, as in many countries there are easier ways and means to track people down. I know someone that operates out of Thailand who works many asian countries, and has a very high success rate.
 
I don't have a car insurance certificate, and I also have a friend who rents lenses quite often who doesn't either, so that would count us out.

I'm afraid I argree, there are lots of people who don't drive, besides which if they have gone to the trouble of getting hooky credit cards and driving licences, a simple printed bit of paper with freds insurance on the top isn't going to be difficult to forge.
Really you'd have to ring the company finding the number from yellow pages (can't trust the number on the paper can we) and see if they would confirm the policy holder was genuine and been with them for years, personally I suspect they wouldn't give out detail of their customer.
Even if they did it wouldn't help if the persons detail are real and they just buggered off abroad.
 
Having previously worked in Car rental, there is only so much you can do with regards ID etc to stop someone stealing something rented. We had the advantage of being local to renters, so knew the area they came from, often picking them up from there home address. We asked where they worked, took 2 landlines and a mobile, 2 recent utility bills, credit card in there name with a large deposit. We would have the advanatge of seeing them, talking to them and being able to judge them. If we felt there was something wrong, they didn't get the car. end of. We didn't have to justify it, we would rather lose a £300 rental than a £10k car.

I am sure that Stewart has his own security procedures in place, and if he is not comfortable with a rental, he will get more info so that he is, or he will politely decline the rental.

He has said that he won't discusss what he does or doesn't do with regards to security, and quite right.

Stewart, I know that at the car rental co, we did use PI's occasionly, but because we tended to be local, and where therefore able to use contacts that had been built up through the less transparent end of motor industry to "find" vehicles, we didn't need to use PI's that much. I think it is a case of finding a good one, and a bit of luck tbh.

I know your insured, but if they cover it, it won't help premiums for next year, so I hope you get the kit back.
 
Here's another related idea that some people might be able to help with.

It occurs to me that from time to time incidents occur such that prompt action might recover missing property, but by the time the police get involved the trail has gone cold.

So does anyone here know anything helpful (from personal knowledge please, not hearsay or supposition) about the capabilities of private investigators, and the constraints within which they must operate?

Sadly, the main hindrance with Fraud cases is the paper trail we have to follow; much of what we require - bank records, telephone information, email accounts, etc, falls under the provision of "Special Procedure Material" because of the confidentiality in which it is held. To obtain this, we have to draft vast "Production Orders", which must then be heard at Crown Court, then served on the individual or company holding the material - then we have to wait for their reply. It can take weeks to make any serious headway into even quite simple frauds and, much to my immense annoyance, this is partly what allows fraud to run rampant in this country.

On the subject of Private Investigators, they have the same capabilities as any other private citizen. They do not have legitimate access to police databases or other information sources; that's not to say they can't get it, but to do so would be illegal. Private Investigators are not constrained by significant legislation such as the Police and Criminal Evidence Act (in most respects), the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (which applies to public authorities) or other such legislation governing police powers and procedure.

PI's, in my experience, are either ex-service (police or similar) or hopeless wannabes. They are largely unregulated, which gives them considerable freedom in certain regards. However, that same freedom means that they are no different to any other member of the public. If a PI were to make a Production Order request for somebody's bank records, it would almost certainly be refused; as far as the court would be concerned, it would be no different to giving the material to the proverbial man in the pub - and the PI is under no obligation to treat such material sensitively.

PI's are very useful for civil investigations - typically divorce proceedings, property disputes and suchlike - but for criminal investigations they are almost unheard of. In all my service, I have never seen a criminal prosecution brought by an individual who had engaged the services of a PI, and - depending on circumstances - I would strongly advise saving your money. There is also a strong possibility, depending on the methodology used by a PI, that any evidence they gather for criminal proceedings may well fall outside lawful methods of being obtained - and, as such, be inadmissible as evidence.

I appreciate the police can be frustrating (especially with fraud), but at least we have the potential to solve the case and bring about a resolution. A PI may track your goods down - using methods that are just as open to you as well - but I wouldn't expect much more than that. Equally, if they are unsuccessful, you will be considerably out of pocket.
 
PI's are very useful for civil investigations - typically divorce proceedings, property disputes and suchlike - but for criminal investigations they are almost unheard of. In all my service, I have never seen a criminal prosecution brought by an individual who had engaged the services of a PI, and - depending on circumstances - I would strongly advise saving your money. There is also a strong possibility, depending on the methodology used by a PI, that any evidence they gather for criminal proceedings may well fall outside lawful methods of being obtained - and, as such, be inadmissible as evidence.
Very helpful advice, thanks. I won't bother pursuing this line of thought any further.
 
Hope you get this sorted out - I know all the dead ends you hit when doing your own investigation but it feels so good trying to find the little scrote!

A few years ago I had £1100 taken from my account at two branches of Barclays, on both occasions on the same day "I" went in to the branch claiming I was on the way to the airport and had left my wallet at home and needed cash. This was handed over by the cashier on a signature, my DOB and my NI number as the only proof.

Well, as you can imagine I was not impressed as I am sure I would have had my passport with me had I been going to the airport and also know that my bank did not have my NI number on record.

I got my money back but Barclays were so stupid and disclosed far too much information to me, but could not provide me any CCTV images of the said person. Butt hell, they paid for a dinner for my wife and I and said sorry so everything was ok!!!!!
 
Ooh, that's interesting. How?

This is from the T&Cs of setting up a PO Box:

9. Disclosure of information
We reserve the right to give the address (and title) of the PO Box holder to any enquirers, (and you consent to this) and this information will be added to our national address database – the Postcode Address File (PAF). Information on the PAF is used to produce a number of Address Management products that are available to the public


As far as i am aware you just need to contact the relevant sorting office and ask them and they should tell you.
 
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