Can you think like a criminal?

StewartR

StewartR

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Stewart
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Imagine this scenario.

Suppose, hypothetically, that you have somehow managed to rip off a variety of exotic equipment from *several* hire companies, simultaneously, including:
- Canon EF 500mm f/4 L IS USM
- Sigma APO 300-800mm f/5.6 EX DG HSM
- Canon TS-E 17mm f/4 L

In addition to circumventing their security procedures, you've moved out of your rented accommodation without leaving a forwarding address; you've closed your email account and terminated your mobile phone contract; and you've cancelled all the credit cards that the hire companies had.

You're probably feeling quite pleased with yourself.

But .... how / where will you sell the gear? There can't be many blokes down the pub who would want to buy a 300-800 or a TS-17 - these are pretty specialised bits of kit.

So what is your plan?
 
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I wouldn't need to try and flog them down the pub. I already had an order for them beforehand.
 
Ship abroad and sell there. Common practice for a lot of high value thefts/frauds. Makes it harder to track the items once they leave the country. These types of crime are usually done to order with an outlet already identified.
 
One I've seen a few times is for a foreign national to pull off similar scams with a variety of other high end goods and then b****r off back home before the finance/hire companies here are any the wiser.

It used to be (and probably still is) a fairly common scam perpetrated on car dealers.
 
I wouldn't want to sell them. I'd want to use them. Notably the TS. Covet them. Sleep with them.

Whilst I'm here, anybody have a Canon TS-E 17mm f/4 L they want to sell at a more than reasonable price? :D
 
A fair point MisterE. That's assuming the hirer is planning on selling. With such kit being quite specialised, I'd have said it's likely with intent on keeping rather than selling.
 
StewartR said:
In addition to circumventing their security procedures, you've moved out of your rented accommodation without leaving a forwarding address; you've closed your email account and terminated your mobile phone contract; and you've cancelled all the credit cards that the hire companies had.
Click to expand...

You'd struggle to do the above. You'd need to get a rented accommodation that doesn't require references or identification. References you could fake by using PAYG cheap mobiles from the supermarket and use cash to put credit on them. You'd then need to pay cash for rent somewhere as any other method could be tracked. Depending on the company they may forward to a hotel for you.

Email address is easy enough to set up but make sure you don't stupidly log in from a computer that is linked to you so that your IP could be tracked. As for the phone, again a cheap £20 PAYG from a supermarket that can be binned after use.

Credit cards again are the real issue, you would need a bank account to set one up, to get a bank account you need an address. see above. You also need 3 types of identification including a photo id. With financial services having to do extra checks regarding terrorism etc you would really struggle with this. Your best bet is either stolen cards or stolen identity. If you use the cards you have, even when cancelled, they can track you.

IF you can manage to plan all of the above, to sell the items you are looking at methods that are more private as ebay will be scanned, as will gumtree etc. Your next best option is forums, but again depends on the forum and do the rental people use it?

I suppose the real best option would be meets or trading in against other equipment on forums or shops then selling on the new equipment. Lets not forget that the people you are selling it to will have to pay you in cash because the other methods could be tracked.

Is that criminal enough for you? :D

I was bored! :D

Have you had this happen to you or is it just a hypothetical question?
 
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TBH if that's all they took ( Don't take this the wrong Way), after setting up all that i would be surprised, you well may find when you tell plod that the same credit card/address pops up again and again from hire comp/shops/ hell cars can be bought like this all over town/area,

you may be one part of the puzzle.

but all together you may all hold the answer

now get your CCTV out nail them on camera and see what the others have, i am sure there will be others.

Good luck


the gear will be nicked to order and targeted specifically


Merc
 
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Of course, even more imaginatively, you could have had the property, the cards and the mobile phone quite legitimately, but suddenly an opportunity to move abroad for a lengthy period arises and what do you know, you think you might want the extra kit, or the extra cash from selling that kit once there.....or you might have been on an extended study visa or similar and it was time to leave.....



Sure there are plenty of ways of doing it - I guess the first thought is stolen identity but that would have been picked up on quite quickly on investigation, so not selling/selling abroad/selling to order is the more likely option....
 
mercmanuk said:
TBH if that's all they took ( Don't take this the wrong Way), .....
you may be one part of the puzzle.

but all together you may all hold the answer
...
Click to expand...

I think given Stewart's other posts, you are nail on the head there. Sorry to hear all that Stewart, I was wondering... Hypothetically of course as to what couldn't have gone missing.


Was it all Canon fit, or was there some Nikon as well (between the lines)?

I suspect, if it was all Canon, then it is a Canon user, and it won't be sold, it will be used personally for a couple of years. Some nice things to play with there, I wish I could.

If it was Canon and Nikon, then it would suggest that there was someone who knew a decent amount about cameras, and is intending on selling on.
The pre-order idea doesn't float too much with me, as unlike a painting, I would think most people ordering would want to use the equipment in general public.

A flog on a not so well known auction site or the similar might be possible. Especially given the pristine quality of these hypothetical items that have hypothetically gone missing in the post.
 
TBH any secondhand camera shop, all you need is ID etc and for that lot it's a good payday,

cash converters, cash generator, etc


i thought i had seen one just arrived here scroll down the page canon 500mm f/4 IS L just arrived as well price TBC Oh:suspect: 200 miles away on the way to Plymouth to catch the ferry to santandar(the place not bank), or Bilbo :suspect:

Merc:suspect:
 
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mercmanuk said:
...

you may be one part of the puzzle.

Merc
Click to expand...

Yeah I agree, a couple of grand’s worth of lenses at best its way too much effort for such a large blag…there probably much more to it.

This kind of racket is as old as the hills for an organised criminal, or criminals.
I know of someone who started a hotel empire by coming to London as a young girl, meeting my friend, getting marred, having a child and in the meantime utilising his excellent credit to export 90 grand’s worth of new electronic equipment to her home country , whist all the time hiding the racket and escalating credit card bills from her high earning husband for nearly two years. As soon as her plan was complete she left, child and all and is now an owner of several huge hotels in prime locations on the Black sea coast.

..tis a nice beach...and my mate does see his kid ..she has now paid off the debt ... its a different kind of desperate isn't it

I don’t suppose that's going to happen this time. :shake:
 
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Two thoughts:

They were never stolen to sell, but to keep and use, said person has now got a nice kit bag for a bit of inconvenience (flat move, new phone number etc).

They have been sold for way under their real value to some other unscrupulous type based on their RRP.

Either that or as someone said stolen to order.
 
Tracing stolen goods is virtually impossible, sadly.

I once dealt with a burglary where the suspect stole (among other things) a lot of camera equipment - a D700 and a lot of expensive lenses. He was arrested after we found his prints at the scene.

Unbelievably, he had sold the whole lot to somebody else for £50. Yes, £50. He had no idea of its true worth. The only good things to come out of the case were a) That he was convicted and imprisoned and that b) When I told him that the true value of the goods was nearer to £5000, he turned as sick as a parrot and became incredibly angry, having to be dragged back to his cell howling in fury.

Cash Converters, eBay, Gumtree, Loot - these are all just potential buyers. Often stolen goods will change hands several times, and the trail is almost impossible to follow. From November 2009 - October 2010, I dealt (personally) with over 225 burglaries, and I solved around 15% of them - well above the average, which is around 6%, not factoring statistical clearups. From those 30 or so cases that were charged, the property was recovered in about 5 - 10 of them - usually because the suspect was caught with it at the scene. Sometimes, the victim - who is more familiar with what their stuff looks like - finds it for sale locally - but it's as rare as hen's teeth.

Sometimes, we get lucky and happen upon identifiable stolen property because we execute a warrant and find more than we bargain for; sometimes, we get tip-offs from informants, and (very rarely) we manage to get a viable lead in a case and trace a suspect from other evidence. I have also been led up blind alleys by victims "identifying" their property, then finding out that it isn't, and the fallout - for the police - has been considerable. This even went as far as almost compromising a covert investigation when someone had "positively, 100% identified" his laptop for sale on eBay - it wasn't.

Searching for stolen property is like looking for a needle in a haystack. In one case, where two dogs were stolen, I found one in Barnet and one in Romford (Google them if you don't know the areas to see how far apart they are), when they were stolen in Camden. I have also turned up an iMac computer stolen in Westminster in a bin up in Enfield, and had yet another laptop turn up in Ware in Hertfordshire. I wish I could say something more positive about it, but those are the cold, hard facts.

As an aside, very little property is "stolen to order". I have only known it happen with some of the most high-value burglaries and frauds, but occasionally it does happen - but not as often as most people would think.
 
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You mean apart from sell it on Gumtree like the one that was remove a few minutes ago?????

Edit: it was cached. It was up for sale on the 12th @ £540
 
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Perhaps if we brought back hanging for theft, like it was a few centuries back, some might have second thoughts on theiving as a career choice!
 
DemiLion said:
You mean apart from sell it on Gumtree like the one that was remove a few minutes ago?????

Edit: it was cached. It was up for sale on the 12th @ £540
Click to expand...

that guy's fishing, scamming all the time. after e-mails

Merc
 
Photo Plod said:
I once dealt with a burglary where the suspect stole (among other things) a lot of camera equipment - a D700 and a lot of expensive lenses. He was arrested after we found his prints at the scene
Click to expand...

Fancy leaving your photos behind :lol:
 
Definitely one for plod and best to inform all the other hire companies of this persons details and any unusual behaviour. The mobile companies might have more info eg bank account or debit card that hasn't been cancelled yet. If plod get onto it quickly they might be able to find them even if the gear is long gone.

If they used their real name then use 192.com and see if they pop up anywhere else. They also have people finding services so it could be worth tracking them down that way and making sure they get what they deserve.

I don't see how you can stop someone nicking your stuff if you hire it to them. Do you mark the gear permanently so it'd be worthless to sell on? Used to do that with computer equipment. You'd have a stencil and some horrible smelling paint that you'd use to mark the boxes. If you physically marked all the hire gear with an etched company name it would be much harder to sell on. Especially if it also said on it 'this equipment is never sold on!'. Probably still sell abroad though. And a b****r if you do want to sell it on...
 
A couple of options would be to laser etch your company name in to all of the products on the plastic areas, and the add http://www.smartwater.com/Home.aspx to them all as well so this would remain unseen by the crooks :)

If this is a real issue, and you can find out if the persons identity was real check facebook or other social networking sites. You'd be surprised at the stupidity of criminals :)
 
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Is there any way that you can put the serial numbers of these into a search facility to check whether thtey are recorded in the Exif data of any photos put on the web? If someone has either nicked these to order, or to use, then they are going to be pretty serious about taking photos, which means putting them online somewhere.

On a similar note, I am aware of a good scam with car hire companies.

Firstly, you and a mate get yourself a fake driving license each, or stolen ones without photos.

Then, you get a couple of insurance policies for your cars, one each. Now when I say car, I mean find the car you wish you drove, and write down the registration number and use that online to get your "car" insured.

Now, ring up your insurance company after the policy has been running for a couple of days and say that someone has rear ended you. Car none driver, but you managed to get it home. Not your fault and the claim has been reported by the other driver, who admits liability.

As you are now not at fault in an (imaginary) accident, so you will be sent through to a hire car company to arrange a non fault hire, which will be billed to your mates insurance co.

Now you have a nice shiny motor, fresh from the hire car company.

Now the fun bit, as the whole rental has been a mess up and apart from having your address, no one knows who you are, so you can drive off into the sunset with a set of number plates on your shiny rental car.
 
I'd liek to say it's a police matter but I doubt they'd put any resources into it.

How about the neighbours. Do they remember anything about the person. Car details are good, you can always trace cars.
 
someone didn't buy your stuff with a hacked ebay account then force a refund through paypal did they?!! :bang: :bang: :lol:


no seriously, watch ebay, some of these crim's aren't all there.
we had a twin axle covered trailer stolen off our drive. We had modified the trailer to add additional support beams inside and rivetted it from the outside - therefore was unique.

2 weeks later it pops up for sale on ebay (in corby :suspect: ), so we called the police, sent them photo's of the trailer which we had before, circled the custom items and left them to it.
The auction was one (and paid for) by some chap in the isle of man (for a fraction of what it was actually worth.
Anyway we contacted the winner, told him it was stolen and said we had an ongoing police investigation. he claimed the money back and the trailer went up for sale again - finally being sold to someone else.

The be all and end all, was the police did sfa, and after the trailer had then been picked up by the new owner, the police had 'no evidence' and no charges brought.

That whole story is largely irrelevant :D, but where I was going with it, is ebay can be easily seen as an outlet for iffy goods.
like when you see camera's with cards and 1 lens, but no charger or instructions etc etc. :suspect:


hope you get the hypothetical situation resolved. :bat:
 
facebook is a good shout... some people just can't live without it.
 
Sorry to hear this Stewart. The chances of these items being stolen to order is so remote I'd discount it. This person is almost certainly a photographer who will be using these lenses. If he eventually disposes of them then he's in the happy position of being able to discount them substantially and still make good money, but he knows the true value of these items, they're unlikely to be sold for derisory amounts, which is often the case.

I'd have loved to have got my teeth into this one if it had landed on my desk. What details does his landlord have of him and what is known about him in the area. Was he working and if so where? Was he unemployed and 'signing on' - if so, at what office did he sign on - he may still be signing on there on a specific allocated day.

Did he fill out or sign any paperwork with regard to these transactions? If so it may be possible to raise latent fingerprints. The prints of yourself and anyone else at your office would need to be taken for elimination purposes.

I hope you get it sorted - these idiots can raise their game to pretty cute, but they're seldom very bright when it comes right down to it. ;)
 
If they paid by card, there should be some kind of paper trail through the banking system as well.
 
".........you've moved out of your rented accommodation without leaving a forwarding address; you've closed your email account and terminated your mobile phone contract; and you've cancelled all the credit cards that the hire companies had".

This sounds reasonably well planned, and you mentioned that other hire companies have been ripped off too - multiple hits - which suggests that it might just be the tip of the iceberg. I think the gear's been sold on, this is far too much trouble, and involves too much risk, just to use it yourself. I'm guessing it may not have been stolen to order, but that the thief had a buyer or buyers lined up.

It's not very hard to drop off the radar, but it's more difficult to stay off it. This really depends how much you know about this sort of thing, and the resources available to you; and who is looking for you.

I'd report it to the police. There could be a pattern here, and they do have the resources to investigate. Whether they will, or not, is another matter.
 
in the thread mentioned in post #31. it was alluded that the receiver was a TP member

did this just go unheeded, drop off the radar, or withdrawn for risk of libel damages

if it was, seems a lots of discussion here is irrelevant as the Courier Company would be ''on the case''
 
What sort of rented accomadation? some places require a deposit (maybe paid by proper credit card and ID}, also I'd want to see what id was provided to all the companies concerned, it may be different and some may be real or still active. It's fairly specialised kit but theres no cameras listed, if I was going to all that trouble I'd want a few top of the range bodies as well.
Can the police pull internet or phone records and look for regularly phoned numbers/emails, most lightly friends or family.
 
lawrie29 said:
Is there any way that you can put the serial numbers of these into a search facility to check whether thtey are recorded in the Exif data of any photos put on the web? If someone has either nicked these to order, or to use, then they are going to be pretty serious about taking photos, which means putting them online somewhere.

On a similar note, I am aware of a good scam with car hire companies.

Firstly, you and a mate get yourself a fake driving license each, or stolen ones without photos.

Then, you get a couple of insurance policies for your cars, one each. Now when I say car, I mean find the car you wish you drove, and write down the registration number and use that online to get your "car" insured.

Now, ring up your insurance company after the policy has been running for a couple of days and say that someone has rear ended you. Car none driver, but you managed to get it home. Not your fault and the claim has been reported by the other driver, who admits liability.

As you are now not at fault in an (imaginary) accident, so you will be sent through to a hire car company to arrange a non fault hire, which will be billed to your mates insurance co.

Now you have a nice shiny motor, fresh from the hire car company.

Now the fun bit, as the whole rental has been a mess up and apart from having your address, no one knows who you are, so you can drive off into the sunset with a set of number plates on your shiny rental car.
Click to expand...

Why not just rent the car with the fake driving licence? I have a sneaky feeling if you try to insure a car thats already insured (theres a database) it'll ping up as a possible fraud. Not that it's a great idea to tell people how to do it online.
 
Thanks for all the replies, folks.

Obviously there are certain details that I can't talk about. But there are a number of good points raised here that I'd like to discuss....
 
This is really just speculating. The thief targeted several rental companies, stole high end lenses and made an effort to cover his tracks, so I think it's a reasonably safe assumption that this was planned for gain, not personal use. There's a good chance that other businesses have also been hit, either for lenses or bodies, but the only people who have the resources to gather and collate this sort of intelligence are the police.

AFAIK, the police can access phone, mail and internet records but there's a process to follow. It's not just a case of asking for them, and there may be some costs involved. The police have budgets, and I wouldn't count on them allocating resources unless they think its worthwhile.

There are some very good private investigators too, and they will certainly put in the effort if you're prepared to pay for it, but this might be very expensive.
 
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