Can you help with this question "CHECKS NOW DONE"

Crtm

Crtm

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Carol
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I have just developed my first roll of ilford HP5 which has 36 exposures but only 24 has come out........

Can I ask why this might happen and before anyone asks the inevitable question, yes I did take them well at least thats what my Canon AE1 said......

The developed film has got the space for the negatives but nothing there?

I'm now a bit concerned as I took this camera on holiday with me and I am now wondering it any of the film I have used has photographs on it????:confused:

I used 21 exposures here in the uk but only three of the remainder of the film which I took in Malta have come out!:(

Thanks in advance.
 
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Are the blank shots all together or interspersed with the 3 from Malta?

My T90 had a fault where it wouldn't stop down the aperture, though that's a very different camera from yours (more electronic bits to go wrong). Can you try shooting while looking down the lens with the film door open to check it's stopping down and firing the shutter properly?
 
Hi Dean the blank shots are all together and I have a new roll of film in it so I can't open it to have a look.....

All the photographs are together 21 from uk and 3 from holiday then nothing for the rest of the film.
 
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What's the definition of "nothing there" - black (gross overexposure) or completely clear film (gross underexposure/no exposure)?

Was it a complete run of "nothing there" - in which case the 24/36 triggers thoughts - or were they interspersed?
 
If clear film, then a wind on problem seems the most likely solution. No torn sprocket holes I suppose?
 
StephenM said:
What's the definition of "nothing there" - black (gross overexposure) or completely clear film (gross underexposure/no exposure)?

Was it a complete run of "nothing there" - in which case the 24/36 triggers thoughts - or were they interspersed?
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StephenM said:
If clear film, then a wind on problem seems the most likely solution. No torn sprocket holes I suppose?
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Hi Stephen my definition of nothing is - completely clear film in a run and no torn sprocket holes......
 
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Going to develop another roll that might help with some answers..................:coat:
 
If the film wound on, and given that as it's an SLR you can't have had the lens cap on, the only two solutions I can think of are shutter not firing or (and this is extremely unlikely) you didn't develop the film in a conventional tank and one half didn't make it into the developer.

It is possible to have extreme underexposure to the extent that the film looks blank, but still has an image. I have a couple of negatives that fall into this cateogory, and although the film looks clear, the scanner can produce a very muddy image from it.
 
StephenM said:
If the film wound on, and given that as it's an SLR you can't have had the lens cap on, the only two solutions I can think of are shutter not firing or (and this is extremely unlikely) you didn't develop the film in a conventional tank and one half didn't make it into the developer.

It is possible to have extreme underexposure to the extent that the film looks blank, but still has an image. I have a couple of negatives that fall into this cateogory, and although the film looks clear, the scanner can produce a very muddy image from it.
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Hi Stephen thanks I developed the film in a paterson tank with rodinal special which I have used on my 127 film without any problem. I will develop another roll and see what comes out or doesn't as the case may be.:(
 
I can think of no conceivable way in which you could have mucked up developing on a few frames and not the rest of the roll with your set up. I know you can't open the film door, but stick it on bulb and see if its opening correctly.
 
You could try say a roll of 36 exp Agfa Vista:- cover the lens up and the viewfinder, set the speed to 1/1000, aperture to f22 (this is all to make sure no light reaches the film) then wind on to see if it reaches 36exp, if it does then wind the film back making sure it doesn't go back into the cassette for use for another day.
If you have a roll of film already in the camera then similar procedure, note the frame count and wind back also making sure it doesn't go back into the cassette....so your film is safe until you solve the problem. To put the film back:- just load up as normal and just add four or five frames to your previous count e.g. frame count before 12, then wind on the film as above until the counter says 13 or for luck make it 14.
But important when winding on and firing the shutter the extra frames are for the leader and inaccuracies, so to get 13 showing on the camera you have actually fired the camera 17 or 18 times.
 
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Crtm said:
Hi Dean the blank shots are all together and I have a new roll of film in it so I can't open it to have a look.....
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Brian's right, you can wind the film in and reload it once you're ready to put it back. Better to lose 3 or 4 shots from a full roll than to shoot the whole roll only to discover nothing was taken. It could be something like the shutter release mechanics being gummed up so the mirror is flipping up but the shutter isn't opening.
 
Do you have the edge markings on the section of the film that is blank? If so then it shows that the whole film has been correctly developed.

I would second Strappy's prognosis of an incorrectly operating shutter. I had a similar problem with one of my cameras. I developed a film to find the roll of negatives interspersed with blank frames, it turned out that the shutter wasn't opening when set to 1/1000.
 
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Sounds like a possible shutter issue at certain speed (s)

Had similar problems with different cameras ....sometimes the blank frames were mixed with other well exposed frames, other times there would be a whole run of blank where the shutter had been set to its faulty speeds for a number of continuos shots.

Remove film, and fire the shutter with film door open to check that light is actually passing through from the Lens on all settings.
 
wickerman said:
Do you have the edge markings on the section of the film that is blank? If so then it shows that the whole film has been correctly developed.

I would second Strappy's prognosis of an incorrectly operating shutter. I had a similar problem with one of my cameras. I developed a film to find the roll of negatives interdispersed with blank frames, it turned out that the shutter wasn't opening when set to 1/1000.
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Hi Wickerman yes just checked the edge markings and they are all there.

I have now developed the second film and I have 28 exposures on it :thinking: the last 8 frames not there and this one I pushed part of the film so did a standing development for one hour. The edge markings are all on this film too.

Any ideas?
 
Crtm said:
Hi Wickerman yes just checked the edge markings and they are all there.

I have now developed the second film and I have 28 exposures on it :thinking: the last 8 frames not there and this one I pushed part of the film so did a standing development for one hour. The edge markings are all on this film too.

Any ideas?
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H'mm you'll have to check the camera without a film in it as Asha has suggested...check everything manually and auto esp all speeds, with the back open.
 
I have to confess that i didnt read all the replies prior to posting so my suggestion was in no way intended to be "first" with the possible answer to thé OP's problem.
I simply posted my opinion based on having a very similar issue several times with différent kit.
No offence to anyone intended and hopefully none taken :)
 
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Asha said:
I have to confess that i didnt read all the replies prior to posting so my suggestion was in no way intended to be "first" with the possible answer to thé OP's problem.
I simply posted my opinion based on having a very similar issue several times with différent kit.
No offence to anyone intended and hopefully none taken :)
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Don't be silly, Asha, you've met me - how often do you think I'm seriously offended by anything? Seriously offensive, on the other hand ..... ;)

Anyway, my comment was referring to Brian's post, not yours. The thing here is to sort out Carol's issue with her camera, not squabble with Brian about comment clashes :D
 
Just another thought the rewind pin on the bottom plate could have become inadvertently engaged ? That said it's probably way to late now to discern if that was the case.
 
Blank_Canvas said:
Just another thought the rewind pin on the bottom plate could have become inadvertently engaged ? That said it's probably way to late now to discern if that was the case.
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I wondered about that or if there's a multi-exposure option that's stuck on but in both cases, if the wind-on is disengaged the frame counter wouldn't advance.
 
I wonder if there's an internal issue, such as a gear tooth missing.
 
The answer is obvious. Only buy 24 exposure films!!!

Probably the best way to test the camera is with a sacrificial film and the lens off. Use a shutter speed slow enough to see the colour of the emulsion as the mirror rises and the shutter opens and see what happens as you get towards the end of the film.


Steve.
 
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Surely if it's a case of checking the shutter is working, you can see this simply by pointing the camera towards a light source and running through the shutter speeds with the back open and looking towards the lens?

If it's a film wind issue, then the shutter speed doesn't matter, and if it's going to be a case of sacrificing a film, then either open the back at the end of the film and see if it's wound on.

If it is a winding issue, then I'd expect that the 24th frame would have 13 exposures superimposed on it; if the last exposed frame is normal, then it seems that the shutter is more likely.

As a matter of interest, was the end of film determined by no more winding possible, or the frame counter? If the former, winding is probably OK.

On the info so far, I suspect the shutter; and testing that it opens at all speeds (and reliably) doesn't need a film in the camera. Unless the AE1 has some device I'm not familar with.
 
The reason I didn't suggest testing with the back open is that the problem might be connected with the frame count reaching a certain number. Opening the back resets the counter so if it is left open, it will stay reset.


Steve.
 
StephenM said:
As a matter of interest, was the end of film determined by no more winding possible, or the frame counter? If the former, winding is probably OK.

On the info so far, I suspect the shutter; and testing that it opens at all speeds (and reliably) doesn't need a film in the camera. Unless the AE1 has some device I'm not familar with.
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Stephen the camera would not let me wind on any further, the counter said 36. I tried to take a photograph on one of the days I was using it as I was unsure if I had reached the end of the film it wouldn't let me press the shutter button or wind the film on.
 
Crtm said:
Stephen the camera would not let me wind on any further, the counter said 36. I tried to take a photograph on one of the days I was using it as I was unsure if I had reached the end of the film it wouldn't let me press the shutter button or wind the film on.
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I don't know about your particular camera, but all of mine allow you to go past 36. I regularly get 38 or 39 exposures from a film and it only stops when the film cannot be pulled any further out of the cassette.

However, if your model does stop at 36 then I think it's worth checking that it starts at 0 and if so, put in a scrap film and watch the counter advance for each frame. Obviously it should only advance by one each time but it sounds as if yours jumps forwards a bit.

EDIT: Just looked at the manual. Your camera should count up to 38.


Steve.
 
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Ok thanks for all your help on this matter guys, I will remove the film I have in at the moment which I don't want to sacrifice, only just put it in! To do this I take it I press the rewind button as I would normally, making sure I don't rewind it completely back into the canister. I will then put in a cheapie poundland colour film and do as has been suggested to see if the counter is working correctly. Any other suggestions or things I should look out for while I am doing this?
 
Crtm said:
Ok thanks for all your help on this matter guys, I will remove the film I have in at the moment which I don't want to sacrifice, only just put it in! To do this I take it I press the rewind button as I would normally, making sure I don't rewind it completely back into the canister. I will then put in a cheapie poundland colour film and do as has been suggested to see if the counter is working correctly. Any other suggestions or things I should look out for while I am doing this?
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If you want to waste the film you could see how far it winds with the back open....not a waste really as you can put the film in a drawer (marked test film) and use it for testing other cameras that might have problems in the future.
 
Right!

Film removed and checked that the shutter button is working which it does on all settings, speeds etc so no problem there, no broken sprockets internally either.

Next.....

I loaded an Agfa colour 24 exposure (all I had which I was willing to waste), I tried to check if the counter was working with the back open but as suggested it just remained at "S", so I closed the back and counted each frame from 1-24 it would only allow me to go to 23 and stopped.:thinking: I rewound the film and started again, next it was 22 and then 18! I tried again but left the back open and found that the film is being pulled through but the the bit where the film is loaded on the LH side does not move unit about 4 or 6 frames in. I checked the 2 pronged pin which slots into the top of the film once loaded and it seems to be ok not worn in anyway.

I think this is the problem so I am in effect missing about 4-6 frames at the beginning of the film but it is still counting them down?:confused: I would have thought I would have experienced some double exposures at the beginning of the film but perhaps that's just the luck of the draw or not as the case may be. :)

Anyway I would be interested in your thoughts as to what the problem might be............
 
I assume that by "shutter button is working" you mean that the shutter is actually opening and exposing the film, not that the button can be depressed?

If the film isn't being wound through for the first few frames, then you'd be missing exposures at the beginning of the film. Was this the case?

If the film isn't reaching the end, then does anyone know if the AE1 has some sort of lock based on frames counted, rather than the tension that will occur when the end of film is reached? If it doesn't, I'm at a loss as to why it stops.

When you tried with the back open, does it lock up before all the film has been pulled out of the cassette?
 
When you first load the film you should take up the slack using the rewind button, so if using 24 exp film and don't take up the slack then although the frames are winding on nothing is moving on the left hand side because it's taking up the slack first i.e. the rewind knob is not moving initially....does that help.
 
StephenM said:
I assume that by "shutter button is working" you mean that the shutter is actually opening and exposing the film, not that the button can be depressed?

If the film isn't being wound through for the first few frames, then you'd be missing exposures at the beginning of the film. Was this the case?

If the film isn't reaching the end, then does anyone know if the AE1 has some sort of lock based on frames counted, rather than the tension that will occur when the end of film is reached? If it doesn't, I'm at a loss as to why it stops.

When you tried with the back open, does it lock up before all the film has been pulled out of the cassette?
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srichards said:
There's a bit in the user manual about checking whether some knob turns when you load the film. Is it doing that? It's pages 10-12 of the user manual.
http://www.butkus.org/chinon/canon/canon_ae-1/canon_ae-1.htm

It is a canon ae-1 you have isn't it?? Otherwise above manual isn't much help :)
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Hi Stephen yes when I say the shutter button is working I mean it is opening allowing light in, I did this check as described in some of the posts above.

Yes I must be missing them at the beginning that is why I was surprised there was no double exposures.

Yes the film is reaching the end Stephen just double checked it by opening the back and lifting the film out there is nothing left to pull through from the cartridge.

Suz I have the manual and your right it isn't much help!:(.............well after what Brian has just said below it might have been but I did not put 2+2 together I just assumed it was broken.
 
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excalibur2 said:
When you first load the film you should take up the slack using the rewind button, so if using 24 exp film and don't take up the slack then although the frames are winding on nothing is moving on the left hand side because it's taking up the slack first i.e. the rewind knob is not moving initially....does that help.
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Hi Brian yes it probably would and tbh it does state that in the manual after me saying it isn't much :help:! :exit:
 
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I think the problem is solved thanks to everyone who has helped but I think it may well be a case of user error.......:rolleyes::coat:I know you will all want to :bat::sorry:.

I have done as Brian suggested and each time it counts the frames all be it to 23!
 
I'm still puzzled. If the film reached the (true) end, then the last frames would be exposed if the shutter were working. My understanding is that this is the case.

If it's a case of not taking up the slack, there could be multiple exposures on the fogged beginning where they wouldn't show, but there should still be a full set of exposures after the winding started properly.

I can't think of any scenario other than a faulty shutter that would give blank film at the beginning of the roll and normal exposures at the end. And that is a very odd circumstance.

Post above made while I was typing.

But my mystification still continues - blank film shouldn't result from a delayed start to wind on. Nor should less than the full set of exposures.
 
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One other possibility is that the camera is working correctly but you are wasting too much film getting it onto the takeup reel.


Steve.
 
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