Can I, Can't I?

Ste Manns

Ste Manns

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Hi all,

I use Canon's wireless Ettl system quite a lot these days, I've got a 580EX2 and two 430EX2's. At the moment the 580 is usually on camera acting as master only, and the 430s do the lighting. I'm waiting for an extra long Ettl cable (on a slow boat from USA) which will bring the 580 back into play whilst still retaining full wireless Ettl control.

However, I'd still like a couple more flashes, I can't stretch to more Canon speedlites just yet, and have been looking at the cheaper Chinese clones. I know I can't use these in wireless Ettl mode but is it possible to fire them in manual somehow at the same time as using the canon flashes in wireless Ettl?

I know I can't use optical slaves because of the other flashes pre-flash, but I'm thinking I could use triggers for the manual flashes? If this works, would the Ettl be clever enough to work out the exposure correctly, taking into consideration the other flashes? I'm thinking no but not 100% :thinking:
 
Your ETTL flashes won't take into account the manual flash, they work on the pre flash to gauge power etc, not to say you can't do it but it'll be a pita and you might as well switch the whole lot to manual.
 
I understand the canon flashes won't take into account the output from the non canon flashes then (thanks) but would said output interfere with the Ettl side of things and throw the whole thing out, or could I not add in the manual flashes as required for the shot and treat the two seperately?

So, say I set up the canons first. Get things how I want, and then decide to add one of the manual flashes (maybe a hair/rim light), would that throw the Ettl out or would it not affect things? What if I used a manual flash to add a flare, or to get some extra light on the subject say? Or maybe I've lit my subject with the canons and want to add a light somewhere in the background (Joe McNally style)?

Or am I speaking twaddle as per...:thinking:
 
I get what you mean :) You can add a manual flash which shouldn't effect the TTL as it's not part of the pre flash, your biggest problem will be triggering it all...

If you add a radio trigger into the loop unless you get the new pocket wizards or I think the radio poppers which I think still need a flash on the camera to work you'll lose the TTL functionality and have to go full manual with radio trigger firing it all.
 
If you're buying more flash then I've read the Yongnuo 560 can be set to ignore the pre flash chat and trigger on the proper flash, might be worth a bit of research.
 
Calzor Suzay said:
I get what you mean :) You can add a manual flash which shouldn't effect the TTL as it's not part of the pre flash, your biggest problem will be triggering it all...

If you add a radio trigger into the loop unless you get the new pocket wizards or I think the radio poppers which I think still need a flash on the camera to work you'll lose the TTL functionality and have to go full manual with radio trigger firing it all.
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Ahhh, got that one covered I think. The Ettl lead I have coming has a hotshoe on top of the camera end, so I can pop a trigger on too, in theory I think that should work?

Interesting idea about the 560, I'll look into that.
 
I *think* the yn-560 S2 function works optically to ignore the pre-flash. You're welcome to have a go with mine. You'll be max sync limited though.
 
Yes, there are a couple of Yongnuo guns with an S2 slave mode. Also the Nissin Di622-II. If you get good line of site, that should do the trick :thumbs:

Alternatively, if you use a radio trigger with an E-TTL shoot-through feature (Yongnuo RF-603, Phottix Strato) you can have one gun firing in E-TTL and the remotes on manual off the radios.

I've not tried this latter method (waiting to get some of the new Strato-II triggers) but I like the idea of having E-TTL for the main flash (either on-camera, or on a cord) but with reliable radio triggering of the remotes. It's kind of poor-man's Pocket Wizards, but I'm thinking that often you don't need to touch the remote guns anyway once they're set, if they're just lighting the background or something, because it doesn't move.
 
Ste Manns said:
Apparently there is a YN-565EX coming soon with wireless Ettl Slave mode...or is this an early April fools?
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They have shown some prototype stuff, but nothing on the market yet. There is also the Pixel Knights, but nobody has been able to get them working properly, as far as I know.

This radio auto-TTL stuff is tricky - it's taken Pocket Wizard long enough, falling at several hurdles along the way and still not completely out of the woods. Radio Poppers have got their piggy-back hybrid system working, but it's crude and cumbersome, and expensive.
 
HoppyUK said:
Radio Poppers have got their piggy-back hybrid system working, but it's crude and cumbersome, and expensive.
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I would agree with the expensive bit, but not the crude. Cumbersome is a definite I'm afraid. Well, certainly with regards to the transmitter, as it sits atop the SU800 or the master speedlight. This makes for a rather tall structure.

The receivers are now much more elegant since they have the custom cradles. Far more reliable than the old optic cable Heath-Robinson affair.

Their biggest hurdle is definitely price. I've had mine almost 12 months now, as soon as they became available to the UK market.

The Phottix Odin ttl looks promising.
You need to be a fan of their facebook page to view the video, but I dare say it'll be on their blog after a while.
 
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HoppyUK said:
Alternatively, if you use a radio trigger with an E-TTL shoot-through feature (Yongnuo RF-603, Phottix Strato) you can have one gun firing in E-TTL and the remotes on manual off the radios.
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I'd trebble check that first Hoppy.

From what I've read (posted by Trevor of Cotswoldphoto) the 603's do offer shoot through but without the TTL element - the hotshoe mount is a universal one.


It might be possible to do it with a TTL flash in the hotshoe and a 602/603 hanging out of the sync port to trigger the manual flashes though.
 
DemiLion said:
I'd trebble check that first Hoppy.

From what I've read (posted by Trevor of Cotswoldphoto) the 603's do offer shoot through but without the TTL element - the hotshoe mount is a universal one.


It might be possible to do it with a TTL flash in the hotshoe and a 602/603 hanging out of the sync port to trigger the manual flashes though.
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You may be right Trev. I was thinking about the Phottix Stratos, which I believe have full E-TTL shoot-through. Though I don't see why the RF-603 shouldn't do it either - it's only a few wires! I thought that was the whole point.

But I know what you mean - you never know until you try it. Then if it works, somebody else tries it with a different gun and it doesn't... LOL :D

I do wish Canikon would sort themselves out with integral radio triggers instead of all this third party will-they-won't-they-work messing about. Imagine a 580EX or SB900 with built in Pocket Wizards, Hypersync and all their lovely tech :love: They would be massively popular, almost regardless of price. I think one of those two brands will buy PW and all their patents one day soon I hope (so long as it's not Nikon ;)).
 
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The lead I have coming has Ettl shoot through, so I'll have the 580 on that in master mode, with the 430s as wireless slaves, and I'm thinking it would be possible to put a trigger on top of the lead hotshoe and fire another flash that way in manual?

Why Canon/Nikon having gone the built in radio trigger route I just don't know, instead of messing about with line of sight systems. It would be massively popular, even if it was manual only. You'd have thought they'd have cottoned on by now.
 
Calzor Suzay said:
Canon supposedly applied for a patent for wireless flash triggering. BTW Pocket Wizards & the AC3 work a treat :)
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That's interesting. Not seen that before. I wonder if building the transmitter/trigger into the camera could be a workaround to some of the Pocket Wizard patents that may be cramping Canon's ambitions? On the other hand, they may be happy just to let third party makers like PW provide this service to their users. I hope not.

It would be wonderful to have something like PW's system properly built in. I'd settle for an optional unit, plugging in neatly to the side, fully integrated to flash and camera :thumbs: :love:

NB The problem with radio is that it is expensive and complicated from the manufacturer's point of view. Both to implement and probably involving different frequencies in various countries, along with other legal complications that go with radio broadcast.
 
Calzor Suzay said:
If you're buying more flash then I've read the Yongnuo 560 can be set to ignore the pre flash chat and trigger on the proper flash, might be worth a bit of research.
Click to expand...

The23rdman said:
I *think* the yn-560 S2 function works optically to ignore the pre-flash. You're welcome to have a go with mine. You'll be max sync limited though.
Click to expand...

Yes your correct the YN 560 has two setting one of which will ignore the pre flash.



Calzor Suzay said:
Canon supposedly applied for a patent for wireless flash triggering. BTW Pocket Wizards & the AC3 work a treat :)
Click to expand...

Canon are rumoured to be working on a radio triggered flash, but the OP said he did not want to spend a lot of money.

The canon is probably going to be a 580EX III and a ST-E2 II which is going to be VERY expensive. There is no way they will make it compatible with another company's product be that Pocket Wizards or who ever
 
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HoppyUK said:
That's interesting. Not seen that before. I wonder if building the transmitter/trigger into the camera could be a workaround to some of the Pocket Wizard patents that may be cramping Canon's ambitions? On the other hand, they may be happy just to let third party makers like PW provide this service to their users. I hope not.

It would be wonderful to have something like PW's system properly built in. I'd settle for an optional unit, plugging in neatly to the side, fully integrated to flash and camera :thumbs: :love:

NB The problem with radio is that it is expensive and complicated from the manufacturer's point of view. Both to implement and probably involving different frequencies in various countries, along with other legal complications that go with radio broadcast.
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There's already a couple of options without restrictions - wifi (which probably wouldn't be suitable due to interference from hotspots etc) and bluetooth, which would work perfectly if done properly. Pair your flash to your camera - no more need for messing around with channels. I'd have thought it would be fairly simple to develop, given their resources :shrug:
 
Side-note:

433 MHz for this side of the pond; 915 MHz for t'other; 2.4 GHz anywhere.

Wein Peanut optical slaves are available with the ignore pre-flash capability.
 
HoppyUK said:
The problem with radio is that it is expensive and complicated from the manufacturer's point of view. Both to implement and probably involving different frequencies in various countries, along with other legal complications that go with radio broadcast.
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Yongnuo and Cactus don't seem to find it expensive and complicated, if fact they find it dirt cheap to produce triggers :)
 
whiteflyer said:
Yongnuo and Cactus don't seem to find it expensive and complicated, if fact they find it dirt cheap to produce triggers :)
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LOL take your point, but they're manual only. E-TTL and iTTL PWs and RPs are very expensive - like £400-plus per set.
 
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