Campaign for Critique

Cobra said:
but a lot of members have got into the habit of posting in a specific forum,
and kicking off if they don't like the feedback.
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....And quite a few members (usually bird toggers in my short experience here so far) kick off when they either (mistakenly) think you aren't "listening" or if you don't follow their 'rules' instantly.

It's a two-way street and I think is best treated as a melting pot for individuals to give-n-take as much or as little from as appropriate to their individual aspirations.

You can never please all of the people all of the time - Such is the problem in all communities whether online or elsewhere.
 
RedRobin said:
You can never please all of the people all of the time - Such is the problem in all communities whether online or elsewhere.
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Absolutely, and of course that is a major problem with a forum this size.
I never mentioned any specific forums, but yes there is one that is particularly fractious a lot of the time ;)
 
Cobra said:
Absolutely, and of course that is a major problem with a forum this size.
I never mentioned any specific forums, but yes there is one that is particularly fractious a lot of the time ;)
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GTF, I have been very helpful recently..........:mad:
 
fracster said:
GTF, I have been very helpful recently..........:mad:
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....Indeed you have, Ade! You have given reasoned and polite constructive criticism but also encouraged me by saying what you like about an image. You can't ask for more than that.

However, you have called an earlier effort of mine "vile" without qualifying it.

Another skill any forum Moderator needs is to remain objective and impartial but fair, and I'm not suggesting that Hissy doesn't already have those skills.
 
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I'm pleased to see that the conversation is positive, we of course have to consider that not everyone is either open to or desiring critique however I'm confident is suggestion that the members that fall within this contingent form a minority of the overall membership, this is not to suggest that there desires don't need to be thought about and facilitated within the overall forum
 
MWHCVT said:
I'm pleased to see that the conversation is positive, we of course have to consider that not everyone is either open to or desiring critique however I'm confident is suggestion that the members that fall within this contingent form a minority of the overall membership, this is not to suggest that there desires don't need to be thought about and facilitated within the overall forum
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Folks who don't want critique can post in the Photos for Pleasure forum.

Everyone's accommodated here.
 
Like most learners I'm happy to receive critique as long as it is constructive and polite - That's how one learns and makes progress. But that progress shouldn't be expected to be a clone of the advice offerer's style necessarily. It's all a melting pot, that's all, and we each individually decide how we want to cook it.
 
pwhysall said:
Folks who don't want critique can post in the Photos for Pleasure forum.

Everyone's accommodated here.
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This is of course the simplest solution :thumbs: an ideally this would be the case...but the current reality is that only a tiny fraction of the photos posted the the entire forum are posted to P4P possibly because its a stagnant forum most threads in there attract little to no comments not even positive comments, perhaps as sub forum it needs redefining to positive feedback only to at least encourage people to say what they like about the photos
 
The problem with P4P is that it's easy for people to interpret "no positive comments" as "negative critique" and thus it's a de facto critique forum!

Critique! Everywhere! It's like sand in your sandwiches at the beach!

:runaway:
 
Surely as photography is fundamentally a creative process, don't we ALL as toggers need BOTH praise to encourage us and criticism to take onboard and possibly learn from?

Otherwise it is indeed in danger of becoming stagnant and dull.
 
Absolutely! Whilst it's probably the negative and critical comments that I've received that have done most to actually improve my pictures - from both compositional and technical points of view - it's the positive ones that give me the desire to get out there, taking more.
 
pwhysall said:
The problem with P4P is that it's easy for people to interpret "no positive comments" as "negative critique" and thus it's a de facto critique forum!

Critique! Everywhere! It's like sand in your sandwiches at the beach!

:runaway:
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Who said "no positive comments" for P4P
 
MWHCVT said:
Who said "no positive comments" for P4P
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No, I mean if you post in P4P and don't get any +ve comments, you could (if you were so minded) take that as "ermergerd! everyone hates my picture and thinks it's rubbish!"

Apols for unclarity, hopefully I've defogged my windscreen now.
 
pwhysall said:
No, I mean if you post in P4P and don't get any +ve comments, you could (if you were so minded) take that as "ermergerd! everyone hates my picture and thinks it's rubbish!"

Apols for unclarity, hopefully I've defogged my windscreen now.
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Ah yeah I see what you mean :thumbs: the trouble with the critique conundrum is there is never going to be a panacea
 
Something that prevails on many forums, and photography forums in particular, is the 'mutual back-patting culture', whereby comments like "fantastic image" are commonplace, irrespective whether an image fits the comment.

In the other direction, comments like "it does nothing for me", are equally valueless, unless accompanied by an explanation.

On my own forum (Astro-Imaging), one of the paragraphs in the section seen by 'guest' visitors reads:

"We specialise in the astro imaging aspects of amateur astronomy, and here you will find meaningful comments, along with friendly constructive advice, to help you improve your skills and knowledge of astro-imaging."

We actively encourage critique, accompanied by constructive comments, from which both the owner of the image, and other members can benefit.

Another source of meaningless comments, can come from the 'post count farmers', who thrive on being able to post "Hey, I've just reached my 'X' thousandth post". Look back at their posts and you will find the bulk of them are of the "nice image", or "doesn't do anything for me" type, without any reasoning to accompany them.

'Post count farming' is encouraged on forums where a 'ranking structure' is used, such as 'beginner', 'full member', 'super member', or 'poster god' etc. Some people will post away just to achieve a high rank on the forum, even though the majority of their posts convey little if any value.

If I post an image here or anywhere else, I welcome constructive criticism, as part of the on-going 'learning curve'.

Dave
 
DaveS2 said:
Something that prevails on many forums, and photography forums in particular, is the 'mutual back-patting culture', whereby comments like "fantastic image" are commonplace, irrespective whether an image fits the comment.
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....This aspect of social group behaviour is natural and not confined to human beings. Wolves are a clear example (I'm assuming that readers here have some familiarity with Wolf behaviour). It's part of getting on well with your peers and being accepted, liked, and not torn to pieces by them.

I agree totally with your post, Dave.
 
RedRobin said:
....This aspect of social group behaviour is natural and not confined to human beings. Wolves are a clear example (I'm assuming that readers here have some familiarity with Wolf behaviour). It's part of getting on well with your peers and being accepted, liked, and not torn to pieces by them.

I agree totally with your post, Dave.
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Your right that's why I don't post on some forum anymore, but aren't we now supposed above our animal instincts :)
 
simonblue said:
aren't we now supposed above our animal instincts :)
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....We (human beings) like to think that we are above our animal instincts but there are certain fundamentals which cannot be changed even if intellectual ideas try to persuade us otherwise. Much is subsconscious to most people. Animals have a lot to teach us if we are open to it.
 
RedRobin said:
....We (human beings) like to think that we are above our animal instincts but there are certain fundamentals which cannot be changed even if intellectual ideas try to persuade us otherwise. Much is subsconscious to most people. Animals have a lot to teach us if we are open to it.
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Couldn't agree with you more, us humans like to think were smarter than we really are, its our biggest weakness :(
 
DaveS2 said:
Something that prevails on many forums, and photography forums in particular, is the 'mutual back-patting culture', whereby comments like "fantastic image" are commonplace, irrespective whether an image fits the comment.

In the other direction, comments like "it does nothing for me", are equally valueless, unless accompanied by an explanation.

On my own forum (Astro-Imaging), one of the paragraphs in the section seen by 'guest' visitors reads:

"We specialise in the astro imaging aspects of amateur astronomy, and here you will find meaningful comments, along with friendly constructive advice, to help you improve your skills and knowledge of astro-imaging."

We actively encourage critique, accompanied by constructive comments, from which both the owner of the image, and other members can benefit.

Another source of meaningless comments, can come from the 'post count farmers', who thrive on being able to post "Hey, I've just reached my 'X' thousandth post". Look back at their posts and you will find the bulk of them are of the "nice image", or "doesn't do anything for me" type, without any reasoning to accompany them.

'Post count farming' is encouraged on forums where a 'ranking structure' is used, such as 'beginner', 'full member', 'super member', or 'poster god' etc. Some people will post away just to achieve a high rank on the forum, even though the majority of their posts convey little if any value.

If I post an image here or anywhere else, I welcome constructive criticism, as part of the on-going 'learning curve'.

Dave
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The sure are a number of ways to approach improving critique and its possible increasing the awareness of people posting photos on what critique I'd meant to be and the benefits of it especially for people new to receiving critique it can appear to be an attack on you and your images when nothing could be further from the truth
 
Well I have to say it's going really well I've had brilliant feedback on the pets and zoo and the macro and close up sections:)
It's really helpful im crap at composition even tho I've been doing this for a while :D
and its great to get a second opinion on things
I've also been trying to comment on posts as much as I can too
 
I did have a look in the birds section and read through a thread it did get a bit brutal to be honest
There's no point in just saying to someone that I don't know why you bothered taking that shot it's crap
You've got to say why you don't like it
All that happened is that the OP got defensive and it went downhill
I don't know if it's always like that but it's put me off posting in there
I'd want to be told if my shot was crap but would like to know why
Just realised that this has already been discussed and covered in this thread already
I should read through first before I comment never mind!
 
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LCPete said:
I did have a look in the birds section and read through a thread it did get a bit brutal to be honest
There's no point in just saying to someone that I don't know why you bothered taking that shot it's crap
You've got to say why you don't like it
All that happened is that the OP got defensive and it went downhill
I don't know if it's always like that but it's put me off posting in there
I'd want to be told if my shot was crap but would like to know why
Just realised that this has already been discussed and covered in this thread already
I should read through first before I comment never mind!
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This post is crap, you shouldn't have bothered. :p
 
LCPete said:
Well I have to say it's going really well I've had brilliant feedback on the pets and zoo and the macro and close up sections:)
It's really helpful im crap at composition even tho I've been doing this for a while :D
and its great to get a second opinion on things
I've also been trying to comment on posts as much as I can too
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I must admit to being quite pleased to see what appears to be an increase in critique levels even at this early stage, the really challenge is to keep this early start going and to take it ever further to get more and more people offering quality critique, I thing the irony is if we could persuade the people that post 20 "nice shot" type comments a day to instead post 5 more detailed post a day the change would be amazing :thumbs: even if the number of overall comments did go down a bit, but I think if that were to happen it would not be for long as it would stimulate more exchange of ideas and guidance in threads making them so much more worthwhile :thumbs:

LCPete said:
I did have a look in the birds section and read through a thread it did get a bit brutal to be honest
There's no point in just saying to someone that I don't know why you bothered taking that shot it's crap
You've got to say why you don't like it
All that happened is that the OP got defensive and it went downhill
I don't know if it's always like that but it's put me off posting in there
I'd want to be told if my shot was crap but would like to know why
Just realised that this has already been discussed and covered in this thread already
I should read through first before I comment never mind!
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To be honest I really don't want to see threads like that, If I truly believe that a shot should have just been deleted ill say so, there's no point not but if your going to say that it is IMO vitally important to make sure the OP has as much detail as to why you think it should have been nuked
 
MWHCVT said:
To be honest I really don't want to see threads like that, If I truly believe that a shot should have just been deleted ill say so, there's no point not but if your going to say that it is IMO vitally important to make sure the OP has as much detail as to why you think it should have been nuked
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I agree totally with you here Matt.

I do think that because a few of the threads in the birds section have caused some heated discussions, its getting that section a bad reputation for being brutal. Take a look at a wider spectrum of [bird] threads and you will see that many are receiving good natured and constructive comments. Having said that, I wont defend the really harsh comments that could have been worded with more consideration to the author or other contributors. There isn't a need for abruptness just to make your point. I know that sometimes mates will have a go at each other, and between themselves they know its all light hearted banter, but to the members who don't know or realise that, they could construe that as being the norm, so maybe we should moderate the banter to a degree, but not stop it of course, its that that can make a thread fun as well as informative.
 
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Trev4 said:
I agree totally with you here Matt.

I do think that because a few of the threads in the birds section have caused some heated discussions, its getting that section a bad reputation for being brutal. Take a look at a wider spectrum of [bird] threads and you will see that many are receiving good natured and constructive comments. Having said that, I wont defend the really harsh comments that could have been worded with more consideration to the author or other contributors. There isn't a need for abruptness just to make your point. I know that sometimes mates will have a go at each other, and between themselves they know its all light hearted banter, but to the members who don't know or realise that, they could construe that as being the norm, so maybe we should moderate the banter to a degree, but not stop it of course, its that that can make a thread fun as well as informative.
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The banter is an issue, unfortunately sometimes we all have to remember that personal jokes can look bad to those outside of the banter, I'm just as guilty of banter and I've tried really hard to curtail it a little but it would kill the forum for me if banter were completely killed off as its part of what makes a community
 
LCPete said:
I did have a look in the birds section and read through a thread it did get a bit brutal to be honest
There's no point in just saying to someone that I don't know why you bothered taking that shot it's crap
You've got to say why you don't like it
All that happened is that the OP got defensive and it went downhill
I don't know if it's always like that but it's put me off posting in there
I'd want to be told if my shot was crap but would like to know why
Just realised that this has already been discussed and covered in this thread already
I should read through first before I comment never mind!
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Be brave Pete, not all threads in the bird section are like the one your referring to, you just picked a bad one as an example. If they were, I think I'd be on my toes too :coat: :D
 
Trev4 said:
Be brave Pete, not all threads in the bird section are like the one your referring to, you just picked a bad one as an example. If they were, I think I'd be on my toes too :coat: :D
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Ok Trev will do:) Im at work for the next few days but will put some up when im off
I dont do that much birding but did make three trips to Skokholm this summer for the puffins
 
MWHCVT said:
I must admit to being quite pleased to see what appears to be an increase in critique levels even at this early stage, the really challenge is to keep this early start going and to take it ever further to get more and more people offering quality critique, I thing the irony is if we could persuade the people that post 20 "nice shot" type comments a day to instead post 5 more detailed post a day the change would be amazing :thumbs: even if the number of overall comments did go down a bit, but I think if that were to happen it would not be for long as it would stimulate more exchange of ideas and guidance in threads making them so much more worthwhile :thumbs:



To be honest I really don't want to see threads like that, If I truly believe that a shot should have just been deleted ill say so, there's no point not but if your going to say that it is IMO vitally important to make sure the OP has as much detail as to why you think it should have been nuked
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Isn't that what the report button is for though? Don't like something, report it. No need for posts like the one mentioned so report it and let the resident police do their job before things get out of hand.
 
antihero said:
Isn't that what the report button is for though? Don't like something, report it. No need for posts like the one mentioned so report it and let the resident police do their job before things get out of hand.
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No particular post was mentioned in this thread it was a situation example given, which when talking about improving critique it's perfectly reasonable to discuss things you don't like in relation to critique in order try and improve on that situation :thumbs: I would hope that if someone sees someone being overly rude/nasty towards another member then they would report that to be dealt with as a green team see appropriate, that said lets not get too offended on other people's behalf
 
RedRobin said:
....

However, you have called an earlier effort of mine "vile" without qualifying it.

.
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I did Robin, but you have received fair and honest crit/advice from me in various threads.

Go back to that thread and tell me that the second shot is anything other than vile, if you believe that it is not so, then I think you are taking "artistic license" way too far. Some things are so obvious that I don`t believe they need pointing out, If you think I should have done, then I`m afraid you are mistaken. Just my thoughts I hasten to add and I`m sure the "outraged on behalf of others group" will tell me what a rotter I am.

Cheers Robin.
 
fracster said:
I did Robin, but you have received fair and honest crit/advice from me in various threads.
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....Absolutely! You have given me excellent advice in other threads and anyway, I respect you for your honesty irrespective of whether we agree over some aspects of an image or not.

I'm afraid that I still like my HDR version of the Jackdaw but that's only subjective and not the point here.

I see nothing wrong in photographers discussing their different opinions even if diametrically opposed. However, I do expect people to have respect for the views of others and not accuse them of being defensive and not listening just because they don't do everything exactly what they are advised. < As I recall, you have not been one of those people.

Thankyou :thumbs:
 
Martyn D said:
Good call Matt, its a little difficult sometimes for me (and maybe others like me) who are fairly new to photography to offer advice so i have to resort to more simple things like "great image" etc but as Paul has said the comments like mentioned do nothing to aid in improving or encourage in posting.
The majority of what i've learnt has been from reading on here and picking up advice but of late the help from the knowledgable ones seems to be becoming less and less, (Yourself excluded as i've read some very helpful detailed advice on replies to threads) on the other hand if people are doing it day after day the last thing they probably want to do is spend the evening talking about photos!
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I understand your point Martyn and I do the same. However I now realise that working out exactly what I like in an image will help my own photography. Having said that I rarely pass comment on other photographers work, probably because I do not really feel qualified.
 
BBR said:
I understand your point Martyn and I do the same. However I now realise that working out exactly what I like in an image will help my own photography. Having said that I rarely pass comment on other photographers work, probably because I do not really feel qualified.
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Your right about learning in that way Brian, but if you are working out what you do and don't like, then you are in a position to comment. it doesn't have to be technical if your unsure or not confident, but add your thoughts in the way you have just described and they will help others who are still trying to work things out. Also, by putting your thoughts into words, you will help yourself as well as others to improve. Give it a try Brian (y)

I was always told that until you can properly explain something to someone else, you don't really understand the subject fully. By putting your thoughts into words you are still helping yourself to learn.
 
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BBR said:
I understand your point Martyn and I do the same. However I now realise that working out exactly what I like in an image will help my own photography. Having said that I rarely pass comment on other photographers work, probably because I do not really feel qualified.
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You should never feel under qualified to comment, if you see what you like or don't please say, you've already identified doing so will also help you with your own photography, but passing on these comments will hopefully help others :thumbs: you don't have to have masses of knowledge and because to advise on technicalities to take an active part in offering critique :thumbs:
 
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