Camera shops - dead and buried?

Diego Garcia

Diego Garcia

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OK. So I work for a UK Camera retailer. High street based. I have to say, that I think that camera shops are dead and buried. Jessops are all but dead, I think LCE may be struggling due to ludicrous profit margins. An example being a Canon 400D - they actually make just £2.00 on this camera. How small indi shops survive in a mystery.

Now, I have been wondering what has happened. Is this an internet thing? Why do people suddenly try and barter for a 'deal'? Its something the English never did. Is it due to the way the country has changed over the years with reference to immigration, some sort of climate shift - I can recally my Dad buying a watch in Spain where you could have a laugh, try and shift the price with a retort of 'loco, loco'....

Personally, I blame the internet. Off shore e-tailers who can buy grey goods, pile them high and sell them on with little to no profit, which is irrelevant due to the lack of overheads.

Now, dont get me wrong, I am a consumer and I truly understand how every penny counts in the UK as I am due in court in Jan for non payment of council tax. Financially, I am ****ed at the moment.

However, I will not gripe about prices and I much prefer to buy in a shop as goods are palpable, have a UK warranty and I am supporting a small business and the high street.

It frustrates me that people come into a store expect shops to give them the complete low down on a machine like the 40D or a D300 and then completely disregard our service by saying 'well, I can get it for £100.00 cheaper online' to which I/we have no retort.

To be honest, I dont know why I am writing this but it has become evident to me that camera shops WILL become a thing of the past. I think that much is sure. The quandry then comes from where will people go before they want to commit to buying online to see, handle, play with and get expert advice?

Your comments are entirely welcome here. I would like a shop versus internet debate.

Diego.
 
I think your right Diego, and part of it might be that shops often work to their own hours. - I'm sad to say

I work all day, when shops are open. Many of these shops are not open after 5pm unless it is close to Christmas when they might do night times. Internet is open 24/7.

I have even called shops to ask if they will stay open for 10 mins so I can get there, but they often won't - I know this is a generalisation but it is a problem.

(Not on Camera shops but in Campbeltown shops shut on a wednesday afternoon, A few years ago a ferry started from Ayrshire to the wee toon - on a Wednesday. The shops couldn't even stop open when they knew people were wanting to go in them!
 
I think you are correct.

A shop has overheads that a warehouse in the back of a grotty industrial area doesnt have... floor space, sales assistants, etc. This pushes the price up. Also being distributed (as a chain), they have distribution to worry about and probably dont ship the volume that WHE or 7Day can and do, so less margin again.

To me the 2 redeeming factors a high street shop has over the internet:
1- You can try it out. I would say before you buy, but then lots of us will trot off to the PC and get it cheaper online after trying instore.
2- Its immediate, and this is probably the only reason I use a highstreet retailer. I can walk in, buy (accepting the cost hit), and walk out with the kit. I dont have to wait 1,2,or more days for it to arrive.

my 2p
 
it's because for years now photo equipment prices have been much higher here than anywhere else - and most of that is down to greedy dealers. Sales assistants? most of them don't know the front of a camera from the back in my experience. I was in a camera shop once in 2007 - they didn't have what I wanted and they didn't give a toss...so bye bye I say. Sorry - I know there may be some good ones around - but not where I've been in a while.
 
The camera shop in Wallington has recently closed down to be replaced by another charity shop.
 
awp said:
it's because for years now photo equipment prices have been much higher here than anywhere else - and most of that is down to greedy dealers.
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Not really, its all about rip off Britain, which leads to politics. Canon, Nikon etal all change their pricing to suit the UK - it would be foolish not to. However, Marks (mho) saving on a 1ds mark III is staggering. I just cant believe that.
 
Unfortunatly Diego I think you may be right, I don't think many will survive the onslaught from the e-tailers.:shake:
A few indi's who have a loyal customer base may survive but probably only in a few of the major cities.
Have to agree with OG on the two redeeming points but I fear that eventually they will dissapear off the high st:shrug:
 
camera retailer v internet seller = economics.
I dont have much to say about the demise of small camera shops, what I find more irritating, is the lack of camera shops of any discription.
Theres Jessops, thats pretty much it, any spare business is taken by the likes of Dixons/Comet.
I went to London to meet a tog friend from the US, he stayed in a hotel 2 mins walk from KingsCross, we took a bit of a walk round the area for a chinwag and I was astounded by the number of camera equipment shops we passed, they were on every street corner, at least a half dozen in 2/3 square miles.
There isn't 6 in the entire County of Yorkshire, quite ridiculous.
Mebbe its a regional thing
I'd really like to take this oppertunity to cry like an idiot about the availability of film/chemicals/processing, but I think its symptomatic, and a slightly different issue, tho some of the smaller photo retailers my have gone bust on that decline in film sales.
 
Diego,

an excellent thread to start. I have either run or helped to run small shops before the popularity of the internet. Without going into too much detail, the quandry for any business model is around price and service. I was in a local Jessops store in my lunch break, and there are still quite a few people buying at their retail prices. Maybe these retailers are happy with smaller margins as they rely on add ons such as memory cards, batteries etc on a higher margin.

There will be plenty of people everywhere who will complain about the quality of staff (which applies to any chain retailer), but at the end of the day they are still a specialist and many people will still prefer more of a personal service. Having run a shop, I still prefer to go to a shop for high value items.
 
joxby said:
what I find more irritating, is the lack of camera shops of any discription.
Theres Jessops, thats pretty much it,
Mebbe its a regional thing
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Good point joxby:thumbs:
 
I would like to go to a local shop, I hate buying from internet and would rather support the small local shop even at a premium as they give that touchy feely opportunity helpfulness etc and I want to keep them there.

BUT . . . when they say "3-4 weeks maybe 6, depends when we have enough orders" for the head to go with the tripod legs and don't bother ringing their other branches to see if parts are in their other shops locally and can be shipped in, well I go elsewhere

they just lack that willingness to take the extra step and put themselves out (personally not financially) to clinch the deal. They're not salesmen, they're shop assistants.

its about attitude

a good salesman could have had 200 notes off me then, but I went home and spent 150 on the internet instead. It wasn't in stock on the internet shop but when I rang them they said "3-4 days, we'll call you when it's in" . . . so ok, here's my card number

SERVICE

the high street vendors have forgotten how to sell
 
Really interesting thread this. Ideally, like boycotting poxy supermarkets, we should all shop locally supporting local produce/farms/shops etc, but, and it is a big but, and the politicians do not like to admit this, salaries in real terms are going south. The combination of cheaper labour for businesses, rising fuel costs for consumers, not to mention the tax rate, means we have less to spend in very real terms.
In an ideal world I would far prefer to shop for cameras etc locally, with an independent retailer preferably, but as the tax and economic squeeze gets tighter, the world becomes less and less ideal. If LCE really do only take £2 a camera they will be gone this time next year for certain. They cannot possibly survive on such margins.
 
Personally I prefer the shops, I don't mind using the internet for relatively small value items, say up to about £40-£50 but more than that and I like the security of having an outlet and a person to deal with. My 20D, 70-200 F2.8, 580 EX etc were all bought in Jessops. I have bought from Warehouse Express but the hassle of dealing with an in-warranty repair has put me right off for the future. That's not knocking them, it would be the same with any online store.
 
Jas said:
Diego,

an excellent thread to start. I have either run or helped to run small shops before the popularity of the internet. Without going into too much detail, the quandry for any business model is around price and service. I was in a local Jessops store in my lunch break, and there are still quite a few people buying at their retail prices. Maybe these retailers are happy with smaller margins as they rely on add ons such as memory cards, batteries etc on a higher margin.

There will be plenty of people everywhere who will complain about the quality of staff (which applies to any chain retailer), but at the end of the day they are still a specialist and many people will still prefer more of a personal service. Having run a shop, I still prefer to go to a shop for high value items.
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Thanks. To advise, I am totally aware of where I work. I actually spent 7 years working in a huge job centre. The role destroyed me to be honest. I used to go home and complain about the 'clients' until my mate explained that 'you work in a ****ing dole office'. So I realised that yep, people are not going to come in and congratulate you for stopping the benefit. However, the comparison is that I enjoy selling high end goods to customers I know them inside out and I am passionate about the product, but I am starting to find the old guy who worked in the job centre in that some people wind me up.

Today, I sold a G7. A woman was buying it for her son, who is studying design. She told me that she 'thinks' only certain cameras will operate with his software, so I found out what cameras via the net, demoed a couple and advised what a great machine the G7 is as they wanted manual control. She then phoned her husband who googled the machine from his desk at work, found it for £239.00 on amazon- she came back in and told me this so I asked her if amazon could have told her that the camera was compatible with the camera. I offered the camera, which was £399.99 about 10 months ago at a good price. She took it without a card, so we literally made pence on it. Crazy.
 
I really hope that the writing isn't on the wall for the small shops, Chester has what I consider 1 good camera shop, it also has an LCE and a jessops

I've bought almost all my gear from the little shop as I didn't want the risk or hassle of sending something back if it broke, the personal service from the shop is also fantastic.

Sure, they may be a couple of quid more expensive than the net, but he's not far off them when I buy.

I'd be surprised if his shop on one of Chester's main shopping streets is only making £2 on a body.......I've seen the cars him and his wife drive :eek:
 
I would much prerfer to buy from a high street retailer for the fact that if I do have a problem I can go back to them for, advice, repairs and extra's etc.

However, in the independant photo shop I purchased my 30D, bag and sundries (spending well over a 'grand') the shop owner chose to go off and flog £100 point and shoot leaving me to make the deal with an assistant who didn't know a lens cap from a girraff!!

I've scince had similar experiences including poor aftersales help and quotes on repairs for over £100, that I've done myself at home.

For the 20% or so mark up on equipment over the internet, these shops really need to up their game!
 
I like camera shops.

I like being able to feel and try stuff out.

I don't like over inflated prices. I don't like salesmen who are trained to sell certain products, whether they're right for me or not. I don't like misinformed salesmen.

I don't like asking for discount, but I'd like the manager to have some flexibility in their pricing if I show them an advert in a magazine. I know they can't compete with Hong Kong sellers, but they could have some flexibility in their pricing to compete somewhat with the UK mail order stores such as Warehouse Express.

I like to support the local business, independent or chain, because sometimes you need them, and they're there. One day they may not be there...
 
Just to take this off at a slight tangent but one I think has a bearing on the issue. Ignoring Amazon who probably have a lot of buying power there are other online retailers who are still able to match or even beat Amazon's prices which suggests that somewhere along the line the high st. retailers are getting stiffed on their buy in price.

For example, camerabuyer.co.uk always have a keen price on Sigma lenses and they deal direct with Sigma UK (so no grey imports). Pete how do their prices compare to your retail prices? Are they selling cheaper than you can buy in at? If so shouldn't someone be having a conversation with Sigma?
 
I prefer to support local shops, but they never seem to have the item I want in stock.
"Should be in stock next week when we have our weekly delivery" Im told.
Go back next week only to be told "Sorry out of stock, next please!"
No help or time spent at all with potential customers :shake:

I personally think shop service is getting worse, while internet shopping is getting easyer and cheaper with next day delivery on any item.
Dont get me wrong, I would prefer to pay the extra shops charge IF they had quality service and help.
 
I've been into a chain photography shop a couple of times and have said to them, I'm interested in purchasing this, this and this but I need it to do this, this and this, do is do it and they've tried to sell me other things well above my budget. This was also after trying to catch their eye a couple of times while they were havign a chat or reading a magazine.

Now I cannot stand shopping at the best of times and this tends to make me remember why.

I have looked in my local area for independent camera shops and have found a couple but was told that I had no chance of getting a 40D this side of Christmas, I've also phoned a few outside my local area, prepared to drive and got laughed at down the phone by one and told a 3 week wait at least for another.

Which is why I've gone online.
 
The thing that really p'sses me off with high st shops is the lack of knowledge that the staff have ( in some not all instances though.) usually spotty kids straight outta school and not a clue ( this not aimed at any particular "trade" or camera shops per se' )
So I find myself, if I don't know what I am doing, researching the "thing", on t'internet. its then so easy to hit a buy it now button, from the comfort of my own home.
However I will say that "larger" type purchases are "usually" made from a local shop, once researched 'cause if the "thing goes wrong I can return it face to face and shout at someone if required, demanding to see the manager, rather than TYPE AN AGGRESSIVE EMAIL or swear at some other poor kid down the phone, who is only there to answer said phone.
It is a shame the way local shops are dissapearing to be replaced with charity shops
( well in my local town anyway)
Sorry off on a slight tangent

 
Internet shopping is the way forward for me. It's fast, it's convenient, it's done from the comfort of your home, the online shops never close, and most of all, it's cheaper. High street shops just can't contend with that.
Why trudge down the high street on a cold wet day, contending with all the ignorant shoppers bumping into you, queuing for hours on end (not to mention getting parked or getting there in the first place!). I can't be doing with all the hassle, when I can purchase online within minutes, usually for a fraction of the cost. It's a no brainer for me.
Just my 2p worth :)
 
Not wishing to have a go at anyone:nono: but I find it kind of strange that so many replys to this thread have stated "I prefer to go to a shop" or words to that effect...........and yet when someone asks about buying a new camera or lens they get told "Go to Jessops and have a play with a few then see how much you can save by trying WH express" or "Give Kerso a call" Do we really care that much about camera shops? Or is the truth of the matter that price rules every time?
 
pxl8 said:
Pete how do their prices compare to your retail prices? Are they selling cheaper than you can buy in at? If so shouldn't someone be having a conversation with Sigma?
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correct ^ this is the bottom line, nobody on earth is gonna pay £160 for advice on a £240 camera, I know that £399 price is out of date but you have to be realistic, the difference in price between online sellers and highstreet is gigantic, and thats really what the whole thing is about.
Peeps can say what they like about the better more personal sevice, the convenience of returns or whatever, but when push comes to shove, they are miles and miles and miles apart on price.
Theres something not right about buy in prices when the highstreet almost take a loss on a body for the chance, yes chance to sell one measly card to go with it, to scrape together some kind of proffit.
Its no good blaming the customer for looking for a better deal, if local shops cant sort this out, they are gone, because their market doesn't exist anymore.
I'd like there to be a local place I could get my stuff from but not at a 40% mark-up..
 
At the end of the day, money talks.

I got my 30D from Jessops, but only because they offered to price match online prices at the time. Otherwise they were selling it at £100 above average online prices and that is too much of a difference for me to stomach. As much as I like my local camera stores (Jessops and one independent), they are both expensive, the independent especially. I'll give you an example.

I walked passed the independent one today in town, in the window I spy the 24-105 F4 IS L, price = £895, yes, £895. I had to do a double take. Bristol camera sells it for £599, £300 cheaper !!! Even if i take a taxi from home to Bristol and visit te shop in person and back it'll still be cheaper than what my local is selling it at.
 
I think 'Rip Off Britain' is the main problem here. All the internet has done is shown us just how much we are being ripped off- that's all. The gulf between real world prices and UK retail prices has been exploited by internet sellers with low overheads.

Lets look at Amazon's spread on the same equipment:

Nikon D300 UK Retail 1299 GBP
Nikon D300 Amazon UK 1194 GBP
Nikon D300 Amazon JP 205,200.00 JPY = 910 GBP
Nikon D300 Amazon USA $1799.95 = 884 GBP

These are world prices from within the same company. Look elsewhere and the difference between Rip Off Britain prices and the real world prices is even greater.

In the last five years I have spent several thousands in my local camera stores though (LCE & Jessops). I have found them increasingly willing to match genuine internet prices on cameras & lenses. If the price was near enough I have not hesitated to buy from the store. In LCE (not Jessops though) there are people that actually know what they are talking about! They have always been willing to aquire non-stock items within a few days. They even move used equipment from other stores for you to approve prior to purchase.

Both my local, independant camera stores closed shortly after Jessop's opened in town- years before the internet had any effect.

Nothing beats E-bay for choice of second hand gear though.
 
laser_jock99 said:
The gulf between real world prices and UK retail prices has been exploited by internet sellers with low overheads.
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But that doesn't really explain the price difference because it seems internet retailers are getting a better deal on the wholesale price than the high street shops are. I know a guy who sells PC stuff and he often buys stock from ebuyer because their retail price is better than he can get through trade distributors. Ok he's a one man band so he can't shift enough volume to get the best trade prices but if the wholesale structure is such that the volume sellers retail price can undercut the smaller guys trade price it's no wonder they're going under.
 
pxl8 said:
but if the wholesale structure is such that the volume sellers retail price can undercut the smaller guys trade price it's no wonder they're going under.
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Yep very valid point (sad to say)
 
I use the internet for most of my shopping. This is for the following reasons.
1. Most high street retailers are selling the same rubbish as each other
2. Their is very little choice on the hight street
3. High street retailers only stock stuff that sells in bulk - ie stuff in fashion, this includes places like jessops, try buying decent filters or sensor cleaning equipment there no joy and their choise of lens is limited but they have a huge stock of bodies and kit lens and p+s camers.
4. If u buy online u dont have to argue over the benifits of the store reward scheam or credit card
5. many etailers are indipendant sellers for example park cameras and they will give much better advice on the phone than jessops will in person. and some do have shops where u can try stuff out.

Imo places like WHE are no differernt to jessops they just dont have shops. As for the independants many of them have moved online and expanded that way rather than keep shops that are failing.
 
I like shops for certain things. Things you need to try. Clothes, TVs etc. I wanted to get my photography equipement from a shop. When i went to jessops to get my first lens....the nifty fifty, they didnt have one in any of the bristol stores. When I asked how much it was the guy says £89.00. Now I dont mind paying a premium for going into a shop, for the advice, trying the equipement, I think I expect to pay about 10 or 15% more than online for this service, which is acceptable to me, I dont mind that. But £90, for a lens that I bought from Kerso for £55 inc p&p. My loyalty only goes so far.

Again only a couple of weeks ago, I needed a new memory card, I presumed that Jessops would be competitive on these smaller items, maybe 10 or 15% more than online retailers, which as I said before is acceptable to me for the convenience of going there on a Sunday morning. So I go and ask for a 2gig sandisk Extreme III card, he says to me "£62.00 please." Now I dont know whats going on at Jessops, but I didnt buy the card for £62, I went home and bought it online for £15 inc P&P. I really want to support local shops and businesses, but I refuse to take it in the arse for my troubles. I wont be going to jessops again.
 
I use my local retailer all the time, RGB-Tech / RGB-Labs in Middlesbrough, it only opened a couple of years ago, but every time i'm in there it's always busy and they seem to do a lot of 'hard' business, as well as the internet side of things they are very competitively priced too. They even price match places like warehouse express etc too.
 
Here in Sheffield we have an independent camera shop which has been going for years, and I hope it will continue, The staff are friendly and know there stuff, they are interested in photography and are very helpful. I took my mum in a few months ago to but a compact and the chap who was selling the camera ignored me knowing full well that im a professional and spent a good 20 minutes explaining how the camera worked to my mum, she was over the moon. They also give me a discount on everything that I buy from them and if anything needs repairing I get a replacement.
The other side of the coin is the large chain stores J#####s etc, The staff there are really not interested in you and many probably aren't even interested in photography. I think that the smaller stores will last, and I for one am glad and do not mind paying that little bit extra for the service etc.
 
Hum, do we see certain items as box shifting and therefore eligable to purchase online at a discount, electrical goods especially.

Lets face it - when you are deciding on a lens the first thing is to check out the reviews, ask on a forum. I'd suggest the last thing would be to visit a shop and try it out. You already know the specs, the FredMiranda score, the thoughts of your collegues/peers. Actually trying it out probably comes a far way down in decisions these days?

We have three camera shops in Swindon. T4 Cameras and Great Western cameras who are great, knowledgeable and have a reasonable range of second hand stock. We also have Jessops whose staff seem ok although the prices can be 'interesting'.

Having said that I bought my 40D from Jessops on the first day they were available because they had stock, were the same price as anywhere else, and offered a three year warrenty.

However, with people like MPB, the for sale forum on here, even the second hand market is available from the internet.

I think what the smaller shops have to do (and what my local ones are doing) is to also sell on the internet.
 
I have a friend who runs a camera shop and he tells me that the big players EG Canon, Nikon, Olympus don't help the small retailer. He has not stocked Nikon for around 6 years and Canon for 4 years and just this year Olympus wont let him have any more of there stock. And this is why, they will only give him stock if he can sell £40.000 per year of Olympus gear. He sold £30.000 of Olympus stock last year and they said that's not enough. Canon and Nikon want him to sell around £60.000 per year of there gear, and he just cant do that in a small town.

www.markheywood.co.uk
 
I would have preferred to pop into my local camera shop but I just bought a D200, a D40x with kits lens, nifty 50, 105mm macro, SB600, SB800 and 18-200VR. Complete with complimentary spare batteries, 2 free cases, 2 free camera cleaning kits, about 10 assorted free straps and paid £2650 ish with Digital Rev in Hong Kong. Jessops price £3500+ Sorry no contest!!
 
pxl8 said:
But that doesn't really explain the price difference because it seems internet retailers are getting a better deal on the wholesale price than the high street shops are.
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I'm a professional buyer in electronics, mechanical & optical items. Nearly everthing our company uses or gets made is cheaper abroad. The US is good for electronics due to the weak dollar at the moment. China is good for laser optics (only highest spec, quality stuff do we buy from the UK nowadays) . Malaysia & Taiwan is where all our CNC machining is done. Assembly and test is still done here in Blighty though.
 
full auto said:
Again only a couple of weeks ago, I needed a new memory card, I presumed that Jessops would be competitive on these smaller items, maybe 10 or 15% more than online retailers, which as I said before is acceptable to me for the convenience of going there on a Sunday morning. So I go and ask for a 2gig sandisk Extreme III card, he says to me "£62.00 please." Now I dont know whats going on at Jessops, but I didnt buy the card for £62, I went home and bought it online for £15 inc P&P. I really want to support local shops and businesses, but I refuse to take it in the arse for my troubles. I wont be going to jessops again.
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This too has puzzled for a while- even Aldi were selling 2Gb memory cards this week for £9.99 - go to Jessops and expect to pay £30+

http://www.aldi.co.uk/uk/html/offers/58_4330.htm

http://www.jessops.com/Store/s47023...ryday-SD-Memory-Card-2GB/details.aspx?&comp=n

In this age on 'online savvyness' do they really expect to get away with it?
 
laser_jock99 said:
Nearly everthing our company uses or gets made is cheaper abroad.
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You're missing the point.

The online retailer is getting such a good price on the stock that they can sell it cheaper than the high street retailer can buy it in at. Both retailers are buying from the same place in the same country.

That's got nothing to do with grey imports or rip off britain.
 
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