Camera mistaken for RPG... do you buy it?

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Arkady said:
Can I just point out again that they're not 'our' ROE either...British pilots would not have been allowed to engage...
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Arkady from the video its clear there not the British Army. But that still doesnt really affect it. As I have said yes they made a mistake while trying to protect themselves and there colleagues(who in the forces are more like friends and family) in what they saw as a threat. I am not against that. I am against the fact they seemed to have got a kick out of the deaths and to laugh when one of the hummers runs over a dead body cant be excused. The U.S didnt help by trying to cover it up.
 
The helicopter was never at risk, but that wasn't the point - they were there to provide top cover to ground patrols in the area.

You can tell how far away they were from the target by the delay between the firing noise and when the rounds impacted. With that amount of flight time they were well outside of small arms range.

The PG7-VM HEAT round self destructs at ~900m and even a reasonably well trained RPG gunner won't engage a moving target beyond 500m in still wind conditions and expect a first round hit. The PG7-VM is notorious for turning into the wind due to its tail fins that provide spin stabalisation.

There wasn't a threat to the helicopter there at all, but that wasn't important, the threat potential was to their comrades that they were protecting on the ground.

Stuff happens, people get killed in the heat of action. The only problem here is the review afterwards and the denial of what is quite obvious in the cold light of day. An apology and compensation would have been fairer...
 
Matt Rimmer said:
I am against the fact they seemed to have got a kick out of the deaths and to laugh when one of the hummers runs over a dead body cant be excused. The U.S didnt help by trying to cover it up.
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From the New york times

Psychologists Explain Iraq Airstrike Video

In recent days, many veterans have made the point that fighters cannot do their jobs without creating psychological distance from the enemy. One reason that the soldiers seemed as if they were playing a video game is that, in a morbid but necessary sense, they were.

“You don’t want combat soldiers to be foolish or to jump the gun, but their job is to destroy the enemy, and one way they’re able to do that is to see it as a game, so that the people don’t seem real,” said Bret A. Moore, a former Army psychologist and co-author of the forthcoming book “Wheels Down: Adjusting to Life After Deployment.”

Military training is fundamentally an exercise in overcoming a fear of killing another human, said Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, author of the book “On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society,” who is a former Army Ranger.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/08psych.html
 
Matt Rimmer said:
Arkady from the video its clear there not the British Army. But that still doesnt really affect it. As I have said yes they made a mistake while trying to protect themselves and there colleagues(who in the forces are more like friends and family) in what they saw as a threat. I am not against that. I am against the fact they seemed to have got a kick out of the deaths and to laugh when one of the hummers runs over a dead body cant be excused. The U.S didnt help by trying to cover it up.
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What, and you don't think our blokes don't laugh at dead 'Terrys' - you're utterly deluded if you seriously think this doesn't happen on all sides...

You wouldn't believe some of the souvenir photos I've been shown by lads who've killed insurgents.
One of the boons of digital technology is that these images no longer get intercepted at the local photo-processor's...

Some people like killing other people - especially if it's sanctioned by a legal authority...some of them are in our Armed Forces...
We train 18-year old kids to kill with every technological advantage we can give to them and then get upset when they *shock-horror* get a kick out of it...?

I've mentioned this before - I'd rather have a bunch of half-psychotic paras backing me up in a gun-fight than someone who was unsure of himself because of his moral imperitive.
You have to be alive to have nightmares - the dead are just dead.
 
Watching the video left me deeply sad. I found it hard to focus on work for the rest of that day. I could not get the pain suffered by those civilians and the anguish their families must be going through out of my mind. May they, and the many tens of thousands of other civilians killed, rest in peace.
 
desantnik said:
.... a reasonably well trained RPG gunner won't engage a moving target beyond 500m in still wind conditions and expect a first round hit.
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Honestly I would not even try to use it with more then 300m range.

Nevermind rpg, there was 7 iraqis , two of them had aks two had cameras (supposed rpg) Yanks came 8 minuts after 3 avs, and 4 humvees, air support, with a full platoon. Sorry but the threat level to US personel was ridiculously small and for me that was yet another pointless murder. With a bit of afford thay could be taken alive, not all of them are suicidals.
Because what has happend imo whole new regiment of so called terrorists could be formed worldwide.:thumbsdown: But like it was mentioned before Americans never learn.
 
Arkady said:
Some people like killing other people - especially if it's sanctioned by a legal authority...some of them are in our Armed Forces...
We train 18-year old kids to kill with every technological advantage we can give to them and then get upset when they *shock-horror* get a kick out of it...?
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Yep, I totally get this. War is legalised killing, so if that's your bag where else you gonna be? It's guaranteed to draw those in that get a kick out of it, and perhaps don't have the same moral hang-ups as everyone else (note that's not to say you have to be a psychotic nutter to be in the forces - far from - but it's going to attract more than it's fair share).

As unpleasant as I found the afters and the *******s they talked (and it is utterly moronic), I appreciate it as the face of desensitisation that is required to a greater or lesser extent to carry out such a difficult job. Obviously that was extreme (but I'm willing to be there are examples very much worse). Ultimately, when you're flying in a gunship 1km and shooting through a video camera how can it not be like a computer game?

So as degrading as their crap was, it wasn't that that bothered me so much - more that I don't feel they had the right to engage. Perhaps the "video game" element encourages the desire to hunt for a target - any target as long as you can qualify it somehow.

But I think that the threat to them, and to those on the ground that turned up long after the "battle" ended, was not as immediate as required a "gun? Yep! Fire". Again there may be mitigating circumstances that makes this look worse than it is - perhaps that very area had seen action in the hours leading up, and there were militants and thus a known threat to be in the area. On the face it doesn't look like that, and it strikes me more as "closing time at the nightclub, you looking at me?" hunting for a fight.
 
What annoys me most is the fact that it was allegedly suppressed by Washington - like "ooh..the bad language and 'hoo-ahs' might make us look like psycho-killers" instead of "hey! What do you expect?"...
 
If you can't determine the difference between a camera and a rocket launcher then go do some more training to work out the difference. The US military saying it 'lost the video' is just another ridiculous attempt at a cover up.

The most ironic thing is these trigger happy cowboys shooting at people with cameras/those trying to help are just breeding the next generation of terrorists. The British/American Army and these videos and subsequent cover ups are the best recruitment tools for al-qaeda you can get.
 
I would only judge this situation if I had been there and experienced war. I haven't. I have the greatest of respect for those that do, and volunteer to do, they are better and braver men and women than me. But human they are, and mistakes they will make.

Until I get shot at, by an RPG or a 7.62 AK round, I'll reserve my judgement on this one and as to what I'd do in a similar situation.
 
Arkady said:
What annoys me most is the fact that it was allegedly suppressed by Washington - like "ooh..the bad language and 'hoo-ahs' might make us look like psycho-killers" instead of "hey! What do you expect?"...
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When you are murdering innocent people and shooting at kids with gunships giving high fives and whooping and hollering isn't exactly something you want to broadcast. I mean those photos people take posing with dead terrorists that you have seen won't be gracing facebook anytime will they? No, because they would be in deep trouble if they ever came to light. Ask Lynndie England.
 
What annoys me most are these folks, sitting in the security and comfot of their home, judging the language of a few young and brave folks who are risking their lives to make ours better.

I bet some of these very same guys use profanity more prolific than a sailor if their filter gets stuck on their precious lens.

When you are in a war, you kill. Thats the whole reason why you are there. And thank god you kill, because then we get a chance to live.

( The debate about the politics of the war is quite different. But if asked, I will say the war was just. Thats my view. And the whole idea that these events breed terrorism is utterly ridiculous. Terrorist existed far before this war, and in various part s of the world.)
 
I wasn't aware of an imminent threat to the UK from Iraq or Afghanistan. Did they find those stockpiles of weapons of mass destruction when I was out at the shops?
 
Arkady said:
Why take them alive?
Sorry but this isn't a game...
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And how do you intend to finish it, what can you expect after video like that, can you see the end of the problems. There is 31m iraqis will you kill most of them. Is this the ideal solution. Do you think we can buy them with ******** sweets.:shrug: and some crap about democracy.
BTW there is more of this film so far ive seen the shorter verision.
Longer video shows hellfire hits the building....
http://www.collateralmurder.com/ ..... enjoy.

And just to make my point clear. Do you remember How US, Eu were CRYING loud when Serbs did the same things in Bosnia, Kosovo,. How they were tagged as beasts and butchers(mostly by US). So the question is are we ever going to charge US and Nato leaders for war crimes. If Blair or Georgie Bush isnt locked for life, where is the point to keep preaching our great values and other cheap crap.. :)
 
Laudrup said:
When you are murdering innocent people and shooting at kids with gunships giving high fives and whooping and hollering isn't exactly something you want to broadcast. I mean those photos people take posing with dead terrorists that you have seen won't be gracing facebook anytime will they? No, because they would be in deep trouble if they ever came to light. Ask Lynndie England.
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I'm beginning find your ill-informed ranting to be tiresome in the extreme...
You keep harping on about it being 'murder' - it was nothing of the sort - it wasn't a pre-meditated attack on civilians it was a follow-up to an insurgent attack earlier on upon what the pilot identified - rightly or wrongly - as another group of armed insurgents - if you can't accept that fine, but you're starting to become a bore...
 
lazym said:
Honestly I would not even try to use it with more then 300m range.
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No, you are right, track at 500m, engage from 300m.

Nevermind rpg, there was 7 iraqis , two of them had aks two had cameras (supposed rpg) Yanks came 8 minuts after 3 avs, and 4 humvees, air support, with a full platoon. Sorry but the threat level to US personel was ridiculously small and for me that was yet another pointless murder. With a bit of afford thay could be taken alive, not all of them are suicidals.
Because what has happend imo whole new regiment of so called terrorists could be formed worldwide.:thumbsdown: But like it was mentioned before Americans never learn.
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There's a difference between fighting a proper war and dealing with insurgency. In a proper fight you expect to take casualties and mixing it up with the enemy, in a peace keeping mission you can't afford to take those casualties, so you don't close with the enemy you standoff and hit them with your technical advantage - thats asymmetric warfare.

Recruiting loads of terrorists? Exactly so. Paradoxically only if wikileaks post this stuff.
 
Arkady said:
You wouldn't believe some of the souvenir photos I've been shown by lads who've killed insurgents.
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Why brag about that? You remind me of a squaddie I know bragging about when they took a **** in the drinking water they were handing out to Iraqi kids. Real hero material.

Just because you are in the army doesn't mean you have carte blanche to act however you want. Ask those lads you know to stick their photos on facebook we'll see how long they are still in the army.
 
Laudrup said:
Why brag about that? You remind me of a squaddie I know bragging about when they took a **** in the drinking water they were handing out to Iraqi kids. Real hero material.

Just because you are in the army doesn't mean you have carte blanche to act however you want. Ask those lads you know to stick their photos on facebook we'll see how long they are still in the army.
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I wasn't bragging - they weren't my images - I was illustrating the point that soldiers tend to enjoy the job they do and occasionally revel in it...or are you too dim to see that?
 
I have watched this video, what would you do in this guys place ? what looks like someone with an RPG going to poss kill you. ARE YOU GOING TO JUST SIT THERE ? NO your going to do what you need to do. These guys and girls work in tough hard places and get very little Thanks, just another way for this county to say thanks to its service men, slag them off and over report the said video.
 
But as I said, they've already asked for and been given permission to engage by describing the cameras as ak47s. There is nothing pointing at them and no imminent danger (thus allowing the prospect of further surveillance to confirm hostile action). They haven't opened up because they are in immediate danger, they're just looking for targets. Claiming that video as an instnctive act of self defence seems absurd to me.

Everyone/most accept it's a tough job and in many regards thankless, but that doesn't give you an open ticket to do what you like and open fire on anyone you fancy. Being supportive doesn't mean you turn a blind eye to inappropriate action. Surely a tecnological advantage allows us to be more discriminate and avoid mistakes, not less.
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
What annoys me most are these folks, sitting in the security and comfot of their home, judging the language of a few young and brave folks who are risking their lives to make ours better.

I bet some of these very same guys use profanity more prolific than a sailor if their filter gets stuck on their precious lens.

When you are in a war, you kill. Thats the whole reason why you are there. And thank god you kill, because then we get a chance to live.
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:thumbs:
 
ujjwaldey8165 said:
What annoys me most are these folks, sitting in the security and comfot of their home, judging the language of a few young and brave folks who are risking their lives to make ours better.

When you are in a war, you kill. Thats the whole reason why you are there. And thank god you kill, because then we get a chance to live.
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Blind obedience or just naive thinking.??

1 Its not Brits involved here its US
2 Officially war has ended, now its a peace keeping/mentaining mission, so killing is not primary tactics
3 War didnt make your life better in any meaning, its more dangerous to travel to some places plus England paid trilions of £££££££ to play war, so it made life even harder.
4 Soldiers are riskig lives for Iraqis, operation Iraqi FREEDOM thats the reason why troops are there(does it ring a bell), its not about chips eating Brits.
5 Uncontrolled US killing of often innocent people, only has worsen ground troops situation.
 
this is now circular, with 2 sides having a PoV that isnt going to be agreed upon so im locking the thread.
 
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