Camera mistaken for RPG... do you buy it?

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Hairyduck said:
They start off at 1200m away and move to 750m away to fire
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It's the maximum range of RPG-7's (Which is all I've seen in Iraq from the coverage) only about 1 km, and even then damn hard to get a hit on anything much over 300m?

Although I understand that the pilot's only had a split second to make the decision. Much like that guy in Ireland that was taken out when he was carrying a table leg a few years back.
 
Big_Ham said:
It's the maximum range of RPG-7's (Which is all I've seen in Iraq from the coverage) only about 1 km, and even then damn hard to get a hit on anything much over 300m?.
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Our ROE are quite specific - if the target is a threat to you - or anyone else, then it can be engaged.

Just because an RPG-gunner is out of range and cannot engage the Apache, doesn't mean it can't be used somewhere else, does it?

That's what Apaches are for - Fire Support...
 
The press, at least those who are carrying the story, appear to be taking the Camera/RPG as the main issue. There is little talk about the unjustified attack on the van, which for me is the more important issue. As someone who has experience in this type of conflict, would Arkady care to comment on this? (perhaps in specific terms related to rules of engagement rather than generic comments along the lines of 'people make mistakes' and 'man up, that's war' ;))
 
Arkady said:
It's come close - Julian Manyon and Tom Newton-Dunn are only alive today because of massive restraint by UK troops following repeated outbursts of petulance and teddys-out-of-prams incidents in Iraq and Afghan...:lol:
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That Julian Manyon sounds like he's sitting on a washing machine at full spin when he's talking, is his voice really that wobbly ? :suspect:
 
sammyd56 said:
The press, at least those who are carrying the story, appear to be taking the Camera/RPG as the main issue. There is little talk about the unjustified attack on the van, which for me is the more important issue. As someone who has experience in this type of conflict, would Arkady care to comment on this? (perhaps in specific terms related to rules of engagement rather than generic comments along the lines of 'people make mistakes' and 'man up, that's war' ;))
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he already has in this thread
 
alastairb said:
he already has in this thread
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Well no, actually, he hasn't said anything specifically about the incident as far as I can see. The questions was posed by James here:

jamesb84 said:
The bit I find morally unacceptable is the desire to shoot/kill the people who come to pick up "the bodies"...

Is there any need/reason to do that?
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And the reply...

Arkady said:
I hate to sound-off on this, but Grow-Up, people, please!

The guys coming to claim the bodies today will be the ones shooting at us tomorrow. Kill them now, or they might kill us tomorrow or the next day - it's as simple as that.
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The guy was simply a good samaritan on his way to a class with his kids. This is the attitude that got him killed and one that I take issue with.
 
Sam, I read your intitial thread quite early this morning.
at the time I chose not to reply, I wanted to see which way this thread would go, and funny old thing it has gone just the way I thought it would:shake:

I am usually the last person in the world to defend American pilots (the Household cav NCO killed on Telic by A10's was a close friend)
However in this instance I would side with the pilots- on both shoots.
Having not been into an apache cockpit I cannot comment on the screen size or resolution, However the viewing screen on the weapon system I use is probably similar, and I think I would have been flicking the safe/ arm lever to arm!
Any movement like that would be seen as threatening, and in a warzone, a threat is there to be countered.

on the subject of the van- Having seen the mess a 30mm canon makes at any range I would question the motives of the driver (The guy was simply a good samaritan on his way to a class with his kids. This is the attitude that got him killed and one that I take issue with)

Anyone who drives into that, knowing that the A/C is still around and still looking for targets is either nuts or up to no good (apache is not quiet or subtle) Bodies and weapons are policed from the engagement site to avoid potential intelligence from falling into our hands and to allow the weapons to re-used - to kill innocent civilians and security forces

The fact he had his children on board is neither here nor there, children have been used as shields in every conflict, and is especially favourite when dealing with us 'soft' westerners

I speak from a simple soldiers perspective (3 tours in Iraq + Bosnia/Kosovo & NI) so it is not from the ideal position of an armchair- from that comfy seat it is very easy to pick apart the actions of dedicated volunteers who go out and do the things that others cannot or will not.
probably any soldiers worse nightmare is to get home from doing what he has been trained and ordered to do only to find the press/ public picking apart his actions at their leisure with the benefit of hindsight.

And reference our ROE Our ROE are quite specific - if the target is a threat to you - or anyone else, then it can be engaged you can also add that 'if you believe the target is a threat' it is your perception of the circumstances that counts
This is just my 2p- I thought Arkady looked a bit outnumbered!!

if my comments offend anybody- if you have served, sorry, if not, Tough
 
SK617 said:
Sam, I read your intitial thread quite early this morning.
at the time I chose not to reply, I wanted to see which way this thread would go, and funny old thing it has gone just the way I thought it would:shake:

I am usually the last person in the world to defend American pilots (the Household cav NCO killed on Telic by A10's was a close friend)
However in this instance I would side with the pilots- on both shoots.
Having not been into an apache cockpit I cannot comment on the screen size or resolution, However the viewing screen on the weapon system I use is probably similar, and I think I would have been flicking the safe/ arm lever to arm!
Any movement like that would be seen as threatening, and in a warzone, a threat is there to be countered.

on the subject of the van- Having seen the mess a 30mm canon makes at any range I would question the motives of the driver (The guy was simply a good samaritan on his way to a class with his kids. This is the attitude that got him killed and one that I take issue with)

Anyone who drives into that, knowing that the A/C is still around and still looking for targets is either nuts or up to no good (apache is not quiet or subtle) Bodies and weapons are policed from the engagement site to avoid potential intelligence from falling into our hands and to allow the weapons to re-used - to kill innocent civilians and security forces

The fact he had his children on board is neither here nor there, children have been used as shields in every conflict, and is especially favourite when dealing with us 'soft' westerners

I speak from a simple soldiers perspective (3 tours in Iraq + Bosnia/Kosovo & NI) so it is not from the ideal position of an armchair- from that comfy seat it is very easy to pick apart the actions of dedicated volunteers who go out and do the things that others cannot or will not.
probably any soldiers worse nightmare is to get home from doing what he has been trained and ordered to do only to find the press/ public picking apart his actions at their leisure with the benefit of hindsight.

And reference our ROE Our ROE are quite specific - if the target is a threat to you - or anyone else, then it can be engaged you can also add that 'if you believe the target is a threat' it is your perception of the circumstances that counts
This is just my 2p- I thought Arkady looked a bit outnumbered!!

if my comments offend anybody- if you have served, sorry, if not, Tough
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Not at all offended. I fully respect your point of view with this, just as I respect Rob's PoV, if there are any people whose opinions are valid in this it would be the two of you.

However, I do feel that the majority of people (and I'm just as guilty) have judged before getting the full story. The only problem now is that we probably never will as there's a distinct lack of some people able to give their side.

There are plenty of people who can give their opinions - from both sides - however, I'd prefer to agree to disagree here...and still remain civil. End of the story (for me anyway) is that two colleagues (albeit local to Iraq and not to the UK) died...perhaps wrongly.
 
Here's my 2 pennies worth, and I've not read all the above posts.
If this were a war where the Yanks had gone in against an enemy, then that sort of thing will happen in war.
But we went there to help these people under a dictatorship and have acheived nothing but make more enemies.
Very sad.
 
For me its the fact they say 'we got a guy shooting' which is bull and the fact that when someone stops to help the wounded they dont even consider the fact that anyone passing would stop to help. They didnt have weapons and that seemed to make a difference with the other guy since they wanted him to pick one up so they could finish the job. American forces seem to do this stuff all the time, killing allies etc. seems like they shoot without any thought and since the guy was on a phone and probably a huge distance away its not like they were in any real danger IMO
 
I really want to reply to this thread with my thoughts, but I simply cannot write the words correctly. here goes anyway...
I feel that I would have done the same in that situation.
I also feel that if an RPG was in view, and was fired at the Apache and DID take it down - Everyone would be asking, Why did they not spot it?
We are easy to criticise when things go wrong, we can learn from our mistakes but that is what makes us human. as Arkady mentioned a few posts ago, it was the decision made in REAL TIME. Not a simulator, not on an XBOX. Their is no re-spawn in war and lets face it - if you was out there, would you compromise YOUR life for someone else's that you were fighting?
I guarantee not.
 
Thanks for posting SK617, I appreciate your response and hope you take mine with the good faith in which it is intended.

SK617 said:
Anyone who drives into that, knowing that the A/C is still around and still looking for targets is either nuts or up to no good (apache is not quiet or subtle) Bodies and weapons are policed from the engagement site to avoid potential intelligence from falling into our hands and to allow the weapons to re-used - to kill innocent civilians and security forces
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The fact that you say the Apache was 'looking for targets' is unfortunate given the speech heard in the video. The very question people are asking is why these soldiers were actively looking to shoot despite there being no apparent threat (highlighted by the pilot when he says "All you gotta do is pick up a weapon" to the unarmed, wounded Iraqi crawling around on the ground). Is this self-defence? It doesn't sit right with me.

SK617 said:
The fact he had his children on board is neither here nor there, children have been used as shields in every conflict, and is especially favourite when dealing with us 'soft' westerners
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The children were clearly not being used as shields. They were not even seen by the pilot, for that matter. With respect, like Arkady, you are providing general background which isn't actually applicable to the situation we are discussing.

SK617 said:
And reference our ROE Our ROE are quite specific - if the target is a threat to you - or anyone else, then it can be engaged you can also add that 'if you believe the target is a threat' it is your perception of the circumstances that counts
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In your opinion, was there any evidence to suggest that the van posed a threat? I don't perceive any threat, but perhaps as an 'armchair general' who has never served my vision is blinkered...

poacher said:
http://www.truthout.org/iraq-war-ve...t-people-and-officers-would-take-care-us58378
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This article makes for some very sobering reading.
 
gazedd said:
I really want to reply to this thread with my thoughts, but I simply cannot write the words correctly. here goes anyway...
I feel that I would have done the same in that situation.
I also feel that if an RPG was in view, and was fired at the Apache and DID take it down - Everyone would be asking, Why did they not spot it?
We are easy to criticise when things go wrong, we can learn from our mistakes but that is what makes us human. as Arkady mentioned a few posts ago, it was the decision made in REAL TIME. Not a simulator, not on an XBOX. Their is no re-spawn in war and lets face it - if you was out there, would you compromise YOUR life for someone else's that you were fighting?
I guarantee not.
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I am not arguing that the decision to open fire in the first place was unjustified. Given the misunderstanding concerning the photographer, it is perhaps understandable. What follows, however, is more disturbing and raises some important questions. As I say, it is the business with the attack on the van, along with the attitudes of the soldiers heard in the video, which I am struggling to get to grips with.
 
TG. said:
Indeed they did, plus the fact they have a micro second to make a decision, if it's a case of you or them how would we decide, well i know how i would.
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It wasn't a case of 'you or them' though was it?
 
I'm willing to accept that in the heat of the moment **** goes wrong and in this particular instance that's what happened. The thing I see though as being more pressing was the people who came to the aid of the photographer. Why were they shot at?
 
As i have said for the last few years the main issue is the coverage that the media is giving the wars all over the world. In the last 10-15 years it has got to the point were a camera is covering every shot and any mistake is questioned. The reason i dont feel sorry for people that get caught up in these things is the simple thing of, if you was walking down the street and heard gun fire would you head towards or away from it ?????
 
well i just watched the video and personally i feel disgusted that the admins have left this post on here. The pilots in that video have done nothing wrong just because someone that was a so called professional got themselves into a situation were they was "peaking" round a corner with a large tube pointing it at the helicopter while surrounded by people carrying ak47's got shot wasnt the fault of the pilots. And as for the so called people coming to the aid of the photographer if it wasnt for the video you wouldnt have known that and just like the pilots would have thought they was trying to hide evidence of them attacking our troops. It easy to judge after the fact but get in the real world and think about the way they are attacking our boys over there with IED's and suicide bombers.

If i was in charge i would forget this peace keeping crap and get a proper war going as the short term casualties will be higher but the solution would be quicker coming.
 
mikeward said:
As i have said for the last few years the main issue is the coverage that the media is giving the wars all over the world. In the last 10-15 years it has got to the point were a camera is covering every shot and any mistake is questioned.
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That's not how it is though is it? This is the type of footage that is never allowed to see the light of day. Reuters spent two years trying to get this video released under the freedom of information act. For many people it is the first time they have seen video footage of what appears to be indiscriminate killing, that's why it has caused so much outrage.

mikeward said:
The reason i dont feel sorry for people that get caught up in these things is the simple thing of, if you was walking down the street and heard gun fire would you head towards or away from it ?????
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The gunfire had stopped. There was no reason for it to continue. He probably thought it safe to help the wounded, which is what any citizen with a sense of moral responsibility would do.

What I find particularly interesting is that those defending the actions of the pilots always seem to express their opinions before watching the video. Forgive me, Mike, if I therefore find it hard to be convinced by your argument, especially when it is prefaced with a comment like this:

mikeward said:
well i just watched the video and personally i feel disgusted that the admins have left this post on here"
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This would make me laugh if it wasn't so tragic. It's a video. People can make their own minds up about what they see and, hell, maybe even express an opinion. It's called freedom of speech. Notice how I'm not forcing my opinions down anyone's throats, whereas you, on the other hand, are trying to get the subject censored.
 
lazym said:
I have and you sound like a total jerk, media ops guy you havent been much in combat, have you.
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He has been like you in 'Harms Way' and that good enough for me, so shut up with your Rambo like posturing.

As for the video well they are only "rag heads, so kill em all" especially those children because when they grow up they night know someone who might be a terrorist.

Kill em all Kyle let god sort it out

Seems our colonial cousins never learn
 
lazym said:
I have and you sound like a total jerk, media ops guy you havent been much in combat, have you.
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Actually I can think of at least one episode, within the last 3m when yes he has.
And without wishing to compromise him at all, he was also front line infantry for a long time before becoming a phot.
 
Arkady said:
I hate to sound-off on this, but Grow-Up, people, please!

The guys coming to claim the bodies today will be the ones shooting at us tomorrow. Kill them now, or they might kill us tomorrow or the next day - it's as simple as that.

As to the other aspect, I'd rather have people who 'enjoy' and who are thus good at this kind of work covering my back, than others who might hold back under fire.
When the decision has been made to go to war, the only variables I want to know about are the ones that will get the maximum number of 'our' guys back in one peice...
The number of enemy dead is of no concern whatsoever, nor the whys and wherefores of their passing...

It is unfortunate that civilians were killed here, but 'innocent' - not entirely.
They chose to work in War-zone, with all the attendant risk that decision entails.
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Simply lets kill families of those dead ones because they will also be shooting at us, well i would at least. Such a trigger happy ideas only create problems,:cuckoo: do u remember after the invasion how people cheered incoming troops. Just tell me whats the attitude now, it has changed. Nato has failed big time.
We r talking about Apache gunship and rules of engagement. No single shot were fired from the ground yet all of them were killed. The pilot said about ak47, so can you destroy gunship with kalach. No you cant. can you hit a flying gunship with RPG, no you cant unles you are really really lucky.
My point is that pilot should have waited a bit. There was no ground troops in direct threat.There was no need for hasty killing. In any other Nato country he could be charged with murder, but not in USA.
And killing those who came to collect bodies, that was clear cold blooded murder, but those were just poor Iraqis from some 3rd world country that nobody cares about.:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
 
It is a war zone, wether we agree or disagree, as such it is a dangerous place and not a grown ups playground. Some people die,some don`t. Warfare is like that.
 
lazym said:
I have and you sound like a total jerk, media ops guy you havent been much in combat, have you.
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Cheers Mate - 3 Queens, then 2PWRR then doing this and yes, actually I did have to fire my weapon during this last Tour and during 2006 with 3 Para and on Telic 2.
And before all of that back in the dim, distant past I served five years with the 3e REI - Chasseurs in Kourou, Guyana and Tomi, Chad, where we also saw active service.

It's why they call my job 'Combat Camera' and not RLC brew-bitch or similar...:lol:

And your credentials please? Or maybe you'd just like to apologise for such a bone comment on my job, of which you have no understanding whatsoever...?
 
lazym said:
Simply lets kill families of those dead ones because they will also be shooting at us, well i would at least. Such a trigger happy ideas only create problems,:cuckoo: do u remember after the invasion how people cheered incoming troops. Just tell me whats the attitude now, it has changed. Nato has failed big time.
We r talking about Apache gunship and rules of engagement. No single shot were fired from the ground yet all of them were killed. The pilot said about ak47, so can you destroy gunship with kalach. No you cant. can you hit a flying gunship with RPG, no you cant unles you are really really lucky.
My point is that pilot should have waited a bit. There was no ground troops in direct threat.There was no need for hasty killing. In any other Nato country he could be charged with murder, but not in USA.
And killing those who came to collect bodies, that was clear cold blooded murder, but those were just poor Iraqis from some 3rd world country that nobody cares about.:thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
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Have you really been on Telic? Doesn't sound like it from your attitude mate...if you had you'd know full-well why this sort of thing happens...
 
you guys are getting quite personal towards one of the oldest and most respected members on here might be worth chilling out before the mods start handing out times off
 
david1701 said:
you guys are getting quite personal towards one of the oldest and most respected members on here might be worth chilling out before the mods start handing out times off
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Oh no no no...:eek:

If that ever happens I'm pulling the pin...lol
 
RKD = oldest member.................:lol::lol::lol:
 
I do buy it, the gunship guy thought he was in a him or me situation
Sad about the Tog but bound to happen in a war zone

I do think that it was a huge mistake to invade Iraq in the first place.
but do completely support the troops they are just trying to sort out the mess Bush and Blair made
Pete
 
It wouldn`t be necessary if they had finished the job in the first instance.
 
fracster said:
It wouldn`t be necessary if they had finished the job in the first instance.
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Iraq was a mistake from start to finish - I think we can all agree on that one...

Going to war over oil and the price of petrol still goes up? What's the point of that then?

Even if you accept that it's OK to invade a sovereign state for no other reason than you don't like the guys moustache, it's still wrong.
All the contracts went to the US and to ccountries that weren't even involved in the fighting...so even economically the UK got s***-on...what's the up-side of the Invasion of Iraq?
None - none for the Iraqis, none for us.
The only people that benefitted were the Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney cabal - anyone who disagreed with thier decisions was fired, including members of the JCS in the Pentagon...
 
Arkady said:
The number of enemy dead is of no concern whatsoever, nor the whys and wherefores of their passing...
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That is the reason why this war is lost. However pull out will be heralded as a victory by some of british media, just like in Basra. ;)

Arkady said:
Cheers Mate - 3 Queens, then 2PWRR then doing this and yes, actually I did have to fire my weapon during this last Tour and during 2006 with 3 Para and on Telic 2.
And before all of that back in the dim, distant past I served five years with the 3me RLE - Chasseurs in Kourou, Guyana and Tomi, Chad, where we also saw active service.

It's why they call my job 'Combat Camera' and not RLC brew-bitch or similar...:lol:

And your credentials please? Or maybe you'd just like to apologise for such a bone comment on my job, of which you have no understanding whatsoever...?
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`99 with 18bdsz Kosovo
`01 6dsz
`02 1psk A-stan
`04 1psk Iraq
After 04 i totaly changed my opinion on what and how things were being done and the potential results/benefits of those actions. In `05 i left the army, simply had enough of John Wayne aproach.
 
lazym said:
`99 with 18bdsz Kosovo
`01 6dsz
`02 1psk A-stan
`04 1psk Iraq
.
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Not that I doubt you, but I've never heard of any of those Unit designations with reference to the British or US Armies... What country are you from?
 
Arkady said:
Not that I doubt you, but I've never heard of any of those Unit designations with reference to the British or US Armies... What country are you from?
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May be you caught him out on this?
 
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