Camera Clubs - what do you want from them ???

DG Phototraining said:
It amazes me how few seem to grasp that a digi camera also needs a 'darkroom' to get the best out of the images, its just that its now a computer and various bits of (usually) expensive software. Learning how to get a good shot into a great image still takes lots of skill and time, but it is much drier and less smelly :D
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Dave and Dave, yes this is exactly the mindset which needs to be addressed. I went to a camera club meeting a few years ago and a competition was being done with prints. I've voted for a particularly nice landscape which had a delicate pastel hue to it, totally appropriate to the subject, and nicely printed onto fibre-based fine art paper. I was struck by the number of old timers who said they would not vote for it because the photographer had "done it in photo shop" and made an 'inkjet print'. As you say, in the darkroom we would decide how to expose a print and other basic treatments necessary to get the best out of the negative. Likewise our local minilab would also make these basic adjustments every time we took a roll of film to the chemist. Yet a digital photographer who does this on a computer actually gets marked down in some quarters, or is accused of cheating, or not taking a good enough capture in the first place. I would really like to see this kind of mindset changed but I think until Clubs start to accommodate younger members then this kind of thing is going to carry on.

I think post processing instruction could be very basic, and could be managed by any competent member who was prepared to sit down with a laptop and projector screen and run through the basics of what one would do to pictures from downloading the capture card to preparing it for print. Where expertise allows, there could perhaps be further modules looking at basic retouching such as cloning, masking, and basic selections. I think this would make a massive difference to the quality of their work since many club members are competent at the point of capture but totally confused by processing.

This can sometimes be precluded by shaking up the guest speaker list and perhaps moving away from the overly traditional elements which might be part of the club. I'm not saying do away with the traditional element since that very likely is representative of many members, but interesting speakers will, again, help to attract newer members. I remember a while ago offering to do a talk on portraiture (I said I would do this for free) and I was absolutely no interest or uptake because not one single member wanted to take pictures of people - it was mostly flowers and boats, that being the comfort zone. The speaker list was totally determined by the members voting by subject matter - and consequently getting very stuck in a rut. Whilst I can see this is fairly democratic, some form of managed approach is probably better.

Also, the clubs I visited tended to only hold their outings and activities on a Saturday and consequently were struggling to get a professional to manage and instruct the group. Professionals are mostly working Saturdays so I feel extending the timetable, at least occasionally, to weekdays could be beneficial.

Another thing which I suggested to them was to have a particular expert in a given genre (such as landscape, wildlife etc) come in to do a critique session where members can bring some prints (or something digital) to be assessed, this really is a fantastic way for people to improve (as Dave and I know from having been through the distinction process) but I met some resistance to this. I felt I was making suggestions which were counter to the social nature of the club, with photographic improvement being somewhat disregarded at times.

One genre I would try to introduce would be street photography or urban photography since this is totally accessible to everyone, it does not require big or specialized equipment, it is not weather dependent, can be done on family outings, and it suits anybody who likes to carry a small camera about (or even a phone camera) and I also think it suits people of all ages.

Next, some instruction and clarification on the law and copyright - a much misunderstood subject at all levels, but very important to know irrespective of one's level.

There must be some excellent camera clubs out there but unfortunately I think the majority are quite resistant to change and anything which might upset the kind of pecking order which sometimes exists.
 
I'll accept that with slides you have little chance of making major alterations later; but isn't that (together with the minilab produced colour prints) the reason many have got into the mindset of "getting it right in camera" and taking it as an article of religious faith? From my viewpoint, where the final image is everything, how you get there doesn't matter. If a negative is retouched, and the print from it as well to remove objects that the photographer doesn't want in the image (I'm thinking Ansel Adams here) does it matter?

OK, if all you want is the easy life, then, yes, save time and shoot jpg. But if you want to have complete control and the satisfaction of knowing that the result is something you worked for (rather than working half time up to the point of shutter release) then why not go further? (Note: I know some photos have had hours expended on the set up, and little done afterwards, but hard cases make bad laws.)

I do hate the "get it right in camera" mindset, because it overlooks the simple fact that a camera doesn't (and never can) see as we see; and if we want to reproduce our vision on paper (or a screen) post processing is necessary. Note: I'm 65, and use a large format film camera, so I should be saying the complete opposite :D. Get the best possible starting point for the final image in camera, yes. But only in exceptional circumstances (which to be homest I've yet to experience in practice) is it possible to do nothing after pressing the button.
 
DaveS2 said:
With regards to 'post capture processing', then unless you are going to use your camera in full auto mode, and accept whatever the camera gives you, then processing is an essential part of producing the end result that you want. Unless of course you are just a holiday snap photographer, when it doesn't really matter.
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While I do shoot RAW I'd be perfectly confident in getting what I want shooting JPEG in 99.9% of circumstances. I find it very odd you make a direct connection between shooting JPEG and "holiday snap photographers".
 
simonblue said:
Sorry again another statement with a lot of rubbish in it, just because you may choose to shoot in just J-peg does not make you just an snap photographer,a lot of pros just shoot in j-peg.
Also again going back to the days of film,some photographer spend a lot of time in the darkroom others didn't,when I was a pro most of my work was shot on Kodachrome 64,in which you had to get things right in the camera.:)
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Oh dear Simon (I assume that is your name?), that's a bit rude, and uncalled for, but then not uncommon on forums, where people can be very arrogant when hiding in cyberspace. They are often very different in a face to face situation

I was expressing my personal opinion, and you could have done the same without being arrogantly rude.

I am not, and never have been a professional photographer, but have been an enthusiastic amateur for more years than I care to remember. I have always been willing to learn from those more experienced, provided it is done in a friendly manner.

What I sense from your comments, is "I'm a professional, and know all the answers, whereas you are an ill-informed amateur talking a load of 'b******s". A nice approach.

If you care to read what I posted, you will not see any reference to jpeg, being inferior or otherwise.

I frequently shoot in jpeg, mostly using aperture priority (I don't shoot sports), and invariably find that some degree of post capture processing is required to achieve what I want from an image. The camera does not always see things as the eye does, and cannot balance between light and dark areas, as well as the eye. But then as a "professional" photographer, you would of course know that.

Therefore, the post capture processing may only be a bit of light dodging, burning, curves adjustment, or just a mild sharpen, but I invariably find that some adjustment is required. However, that's just me, and others wouldn't bother.

My wife has a good quality compact, which she always uses in full auto mode, and uses the camera mainly for holiday snaps, and candid shots of the grandchildren. So, she is a 'snap photographer', and is completely happy with her results. I look at some of her images, and see where post capture processing could IMO, improve them.

Simon?, you are fully entitled to your opinion, as I and others are entitled to theirs, and there is no mandate that says we have to agree with each other, but you do yourself no favours by coming across as you do.

In 'the flesh' you are probably a nice guy, but like many drivers when they get behind the wheel, people on forums where they are safely hidden in cyber space, some using obscure names, and giving no location, can become very different people.

BTW, Dave is my real name, I am located in South Suffolk, and I'm quite prepared to furnish you with my address.

Dave

P.S.
"I find it very odd you make a direct connection between shooting JPEG and "holiday snap photographers".

Where did I say that Paul?
 
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I'm pretty bored of my photo group, which I've been a member of for just about eighteen months. There's a pronounced skew towards bird photography (which holds no interest for me whatsoever) and local competition judges (yes, it's compo compo compo) seem inclined towards the same subject. Many talks on PP (which I find crashingly dull when I have to do it, never mind watching someone else talk about it) and precious few on composition.

I don't find the competition feedback very useful, either; when a judge has a hundred plus images to score, the couple of sentences you get are often very cursory.

I suppose this is why birds win so many times; if you're feeling cynical, it's easy to quantify a good bird pic - smooth background, well-exposed, tack-sharp eyes, the whole thing's in the frame, and so on.

So tonight, instead of going to photo group, I'm going out to take milky way pictures instead. They'll probably be rubbish (I haven't the first idea what I'm doing :D) but it'll be better than watching someone talk about curves in photoshop.
 
No problem Paul, I often don't "see the wood for the trees" myself :)

BTW, I did note that your comment was made in a polite and civilised manner :ty:

Take care

Dave
 
pwhysall said:
So tonight, instead of going to photo group, I'm going out to take milky way pictures instead. They'll probably be rubbish (I haven't the first idea what I'm doing :D) but it'll be better than watching someone talk about curves in photoshop.
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I don't whereabouts in the NE you are Peter, but if its not too far, Keilder is THE place for dark skies'.

Dave
 
DaveS2 said:
Oh dear Simon (I assume that is your name?), that's a bit rude, and uncalled for, but then not uncommon on forums, where people can be very arrogant when hiding in cyberspace. They are often very different in a face to face situation

I was expressing my personal opinion, and you could have done the same without being arrogantly rude.

I am not, and never have been a professional photographer, but have been an enthusiastic amateur for more years than I care to remember. But I have always been willing to learn from those more experienced, provided it is done in a friendly manner.

What I sense from your comments, is "!I'm a professional, and know all the answers, whereas you are an ill-informed amateur talking a load of 'b******s". A nice approach.

If you care to read what I posted, you will not see any reference to jpeg, being inferior or otherwise.

I frequently shoot in jpeg, mostly using aperture priority (I don't shoot sports), and invariably find that some degree of post capture processing is required to achieve what I want from an image. The camera does not always see things as the eye does, and cannot balance between light and dark areas, as well as the eye. But then as a "professional" photographer, you would of course know that.

Therefore, the post capture processing may only be a bit of light dodging, burning, curves adjustment, or just a mild sharpen, but I invariably find that some adjustment is required. However, that's just me, and others wouldn't bother.

My wife has a good quality compact, which she always uses in full auto mode, and uses the camera mainly for holiday snaps, and candid shots of the grandchildren. So, she is a 'snap photographer', and is completely happy with her results. I look at some of her images, and see where post capture processing could IMO, improve them.

Simon?, you are fully entitled to your opinion, as I and others are entitled to theirs, and there is no mandate that says we have to agree with each, but you do yourself no favours by coming across as you do.

In 'the flesh' you are probably a nice guy, but like many drivers when they get behind the wheel, people on forums where they are safely hidden in cyber space, some using obscure names, and giving no location, can become very different people.

BTW, Dave is my real name, I am located in South Suffolk, and I'm quite prepared to furnish you with my address.

Dave

P.S.
"I find it very odd you make a direct connection between shooting JPEG and "holiday snap photographers".

Where did I say that Paul?
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Sorry did not mean to come across so rude, believe me I don't hide behind a computer I would have said the same thing to your face,i do find that the obsession with a lot of photographer to get everything technically right, then they forget about passion or impact behind their photos,a lot of great photographs are sometime quite technically bad, but the moment caught in them is what make them great.

:)
 
In the time i was a member at my camera club, (3years) they only ever had a computer out to do the dpi (digital projected images) competitions. any suggestion of learning pse/ps/lightroom were put down quickly as about 60% of the members either did'nt have a photo editor or had no interest in purchasing/learning how to use one. i have since been on a lightroom course and an introduction to photoshop course. learnt more in these 2x6hr courses than all 3 years at camera club.I was considering rejoning next season but seriously don't think i'll learn anything and i do have a lot to learn. :( think i'll just do my own thing and get help from some nice people on a very good internet forum i'm happy to be a member of. ;)
 
simonblue said:
Sorry did not mean to come across so rude, believe me I don't hide behind a computer I would have said the same thing to your face,i do find that the obsession with a lot of photographer to get everything technically right, then they forget about passion or impact behind their photos,a lot of great photographs are sometime quite technically bad, but the moment caught in them is what make them great.:)
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Apology accepted Simon, thank you.

As I said, we are all entitled to our opinion. Its how we present it that matters.

Subject closed. :)

I am now off out to my camera club.

Take care.

Dave
 
Going off topic a bit myself - well I can :D

In a former club our President would welcome newbies by saying something like... If you join you get access to the disc with CS3, LR 3 and ProShowGold for free - all rip off software !!! I repeatedly told hm NOT to do that, and one day two newbies came along who I chatted to, he then launched into his "FREE" bit and I cringed as they were Trading Standards Officers !!!

Who joined, took advantage of the free £800 of software and were never seen again !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh - and some of my Pro mates do indeed shoot Weddings in jpeg and in 'P' mode too - if you know what you're doing its all do-able (daft, but do-able) :)

I use P for p*ss*d while on holiday mode :D

Dave
 
dinorock said:
In the time i was a member at my camera club, (3years) they only ever had a computer out to do the dpi (digital projected images) competitions. any suggestion of learning pse/ps/lightroom were put down quickly as about 60% of the members either did'nt have a photo editor or had no interest in purchasing/learning how to use one. i have since been on a lightroom course and an introduction to photoshop course. learnt more in these 2x6hr courses than all 3 years at camera club.I was considering rejoning next season but seriously don't think i'll learn anything and i do have a lot to learn. :( think i'll just do my own thing and get help from some nice people on a very good internet forum i'm happy to be a member of. ;)
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hi mike just had a read of this thread,
isn't photography for every one.
do you have to have the latest expensive camera and a lens worth thousands of pounds to take nice photos.
I know something decent is better. but I learnt so much from you guys at whipsnade,
that with a bit of time and practice, I can look at my photos, and think, there not bad at all.
I have no inspirations to be a pro. its just a hobby I like,
my main aim is to take wildlife photos, mainly birds, for that you have to put in some time and effort.
would be nice for someone to say, that is a nice photo.
toodle pip sam.
 
If you want someone to say it's nice Sam just put your pics on Facebook all your friends will say it til the cows come home.if you want them to say "your shots are good/getting better then stick around here or go to TP meets I've got nothing against people learning my point was I learned sod all and the other members were no help what so ever .
 
DG Phototraining said:
Me too :)

Which is why I recently gave a 1 hour presentation starting off with raw capture and my approach to using Lightroom :)

It was actually supposed to be a 30 min presentation but it sailed FAR above too many heads, meaning I had to go back the THE most basic approach and build slowly - still lots of confused looks though as I ran out of time so hurried through (we will be exploring again soon - and SLOWER)

Dave
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And herein lies the potential problem with these types of instruction/tutorial. What is basic to some leaves others looking blank. If you start at the very very beginning those that already know about it switch off and if you start too far along those that don't understand switch off.

As a coincidence last night at the club the ch
 
Toooo many retired chops is my beef. South Oxfordshire clubs seem dull the ones I've been too.

Not a studio light in sight.

Comps? Not my bag. Someone who shot paint on a rotting door will mostly win that... under 'Textures' title

Might have to start one near Didcot/Wantage as Abingdon is like gods waiting room and Wallingford is the 'Walking Dead' with out the babes with guns.

Maybe team up with Char-lotie and start a funky groovy kind of club... Yeah Baby! Behave!
 
Gaz J said:
And herein lies the potential problem with these types of instruction/tutorial. What is basic to some leaves others looking blank. If you start at the very very beginning those that already know about it switch off and if you start too far along those that don't understand switch off.

As a coincidence last night at the club the ch
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I so hope you're going to finish that last sentence :)

Dave
 
Daryl said:
Toooo many retired chops is my beef. South Oxfordshire clubs seem dull the ones I've been too.

Not a studio light in sight.

Comps? Not my bag. Someone who shot paint on a rotting door will mostly win that... under 'Textures' title

Might have to start one near Didcot/Wantage as Abingdon is like gods waiting room and Wallingford is the 'Walking Dead' with out the babes with guns.

Maybe team up with Char-lotie and start a funky groovy kind of club... Yeah Baby! Behave!
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I'm guessing you'd meet in a pub ;)

BEER !!!

Dave
 
DG Phototraining said:
I so hope you're going to finish that last sentence :)

Dave
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Sorry. .......... the chairman gave a LR tutorial that went over the head of half the people there and he started just above the very basics. :)

By the way Dave my post wasn't a dig at you for doing it just an observation that sometimes its difficult to find a balance for these things.
 
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Just looked through Wantage camera club... Landscapes, Stills comps, chats. odd demo... Hardly any hands studio product/still life creative lighting. Mutli flashgun out door stuff. no talks from pro togs that do Science or scenes of crime or art house. or architects etc... chap coming from the army. Ex Army tog.

Where's the learning evenings?. where's the pushing the boundaries and trying something you've not done....... South Oxfordshire seems to be coffee nights with your camera.

Oh wait!!! There is a Light painting evening. I take it all back.
 
I joined a camera club near where I live - I had completely the wrong idea about them. I thought there would be people to help me learn how to use my camera. I got there the man said to me I'm Dave we need chairs put out. Then I sat through somebody's beautiful photos of Scotland until the break. I tried to talk to a few people - a very difficult thing for me to do - and escaped before the next slide show started.
It would have been nice to have someone there to chat to (although on Facebook you would get to know people). And perhaps a mentor or two for newbies. The programme for the club showed slide shows were basically all they did. I never went back.
 
Gaz J said:
Sorry. .......... the chairman gave a LR tutorial that went over the head of half the people there and he started just above the very basics. :)

By the way Dave my post wasn't a dig at you for doing it just an observation that sometimes its difficult to find a balance for these things.
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I didn't for a second think it was a dig at all mate :)

Though now you mention it, perhaps it was and you're now trying to back out of it, Grrrrrrrrr

lol

Dave
 
Ixybill said:
I joined a camera club near where I live - I had completely the wrong idea about them. I thought there would be people to help me learn how to use my camera. I got there the man said to me I'm Dave we need chairs put out. Then I sat through somebody's beautiful photos of Scotland until the break. I tried to talk to a few people - a very difficult thing for me to do - and escaped before the next slide show started.
It would have been nice to have someone there to chat to (although on Facebook you would get to know people). And perhaps a mentor or two for newbies. The programme for the club showed slide shows were basically all they did. I never went back.
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I used to be the 'Greeter' at my old club cos the President, in fact pretty much all the rest of the committee, couldn't be arsed to even say 'Hi' to anyone usually

We do aim to greet new guests (potential members) at the new club but there are so many of them its hard sometimes !!! Nice problem to have though from the club's PoV :)

Dave
 
Daryl said:
I think we need something down here...... for the under 50's With a bar would be great......
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I promise to avoid it liike the plague as I'm far, far too old to have anything to contribute :(
 
Hello.

I have tried a couple of clubs, and i just felt they they were just being run for the Committee / long term members.

I like to get out and shoot things and it would have been nice for them to arrange more location meets ( The best meet i had and it was quite a while ago was not with a club but was with a TP meet at the Yorkshire Sculpture Park great people, great day out.) so a club that does its fair share of out and about would be great.

Also a club that could also include Videography would be nice even in a small way.

And more practical nights.

And yes! less competitions.

Just my sixpence worth. :>)
 
Gaz J said:
And herein lies the potential problem with these types of instruction/tutorial. What is basic to some leaves others looking blank. If you start at the very very beginning those that already know about it switch off and if you start too far along those that don't understand switch off.
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We often presume this, but quite often even the more advanced users will pick up something valuable from an instructor who starts at the beginning. It's not uncommon to find gaps in everybody's learning, even where basics are concerned. However any instruction should be aimed at the ability level of the group as a whole - obviously there needs to be some analysis beforehand in order to determine what the starting point will be.
 
The more I read about all these negative experiences with camera clubs, and I don't doubt them for a moment, because they exist in my local area, the more I am beginning to realise what a gem I found in the club that I joined last September.

In the last five months since joining, I have attended every meeting (fortnightly), and not found a single one of the multitude of negative aspects presented in this 'thread', and I was very anti camera club for all of the reasons posted here.

The club is only three years old, and is a very different breed, to the long established stereo-typical camera clubs that have been referred to here. Dave's new club excepted of course.:).

Daryl, 'old cronies' is 'pigeon holing', and implies that all older people are 'cronies', when in fact there are a lot of younger people who could equally be described as 'cronies'.

I am 71, and fairly fit for my age (I gave up smoking 46 years ago), I don't wear a cardigan, and could probably still see lot of young blokes off in the swimming pool. I have scuba dived, raced sailing dinghies, play keyboard and guitar, and enjoy the same music as my grandchildren. :)

Age is just a number, its how you think and act that's important. You don't have to be under 50, to think under 50 or younger even. :woot:

Dave
 
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Lindsay D said:
We often presume this, but quite often even the more advanced users will pick up something valuable from an instructor who starts at the beginning. It's not uncommon to find gaps in everybody's learning, even where basics are concerned. However any instruction should be aimed at the ability level of the group as a whole - obviously there needs to be some analysis beforehand in order to determine what the starting point will be.
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split into more than one group, users and newbies. i'm a user of lightroom but still learned loads of new stuff on a single 6 hr course. hth mike
 
As well as searching for camera clubs, it's worth going to Meetup.com and doing a search for photography within a X mile radius of where you live. Don't know about other areas, but the Edinburgh groups are excellent, welcoming to beginners and have a wide variety of activities - from a landscape photography weekend away in Glencoe with Colin Prior to weekly workshops for example an introduction to studio lighting, macro, black and white etc. None of the camera club clique stuff, hardly any gear talk (not heard the Nikon or Canon debate once and people use everything from full frame DSLRS to APS-C to mirrorless, bridge cameras and compacts), mostly a mix of socialising, informal learning and photo taking. Similar to the group run by DG Dave by the sounds of it.

http://www.meetup.com/The-Edinburgh-Digital-Photography-Meetup-Group/ and http://www.meetup.com/Edinburgh-Creative-Photographers/
I am sure other areas must have similar groups?
 
Thanks Dave.
Can't make it tomorrow as under the weather, but i will make it for the next meeting on the 9th.

cheers Paul.
 
I belong to a camera club & love it, love the talks from other photographers that visit our club is in Rayleigh Essex, plus I have now enrolled in a course at a collage so I hope something sinks into my brain with all the tuition I will getting hopefully as I'm slow to learn at the age of 65yrs LOL
 
planetjamez said:
Maybe some photo competitions. People of all ages are also good. Im 15 and I get put off because a lot of people are more experienced and older
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I know what you mean..I think a lot of club membership is made up of retired people, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but as a youngster I guess it feels to you like a 'not in the moment vibe', hey, I'm 59 going on 30 and that's what it feels like to me! but stick with it, I'm sure the positives will out way the negatives!

Robin
 
Wow. Lots of stereotyping right through this thread. I have to say that I have never been to a camera club but the suggestion that it is common in clubs for some members to be asked to take their clothes off I find very sad. I bet if the majority of camera club members were to read this they would be horrified. I would be surprised if this is indeed common and I think it is highly unfair to tar everyone that attends a club in such a way. Horrific.

But on a positive note. This thread has prompted me to search for a camera club and there is one 6 miles away that I did not know existed. The annual schedule looks a good balance of competition, education and trips out. But it looks good so I think I will pop along and see for myself.

So a big thanks to this thread. :)
 
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