CAMERA CLUBS - update / review on ours

[DG Phototraining]

Several of you may know that almost 2 years ago I helped found a new camera club in Barnsley which grew to over 50 members within its first year, I posted at the time what was different about it, and I've just been asked again so it allowed for a review. So here it is, my review of what worked & didn't...

What we did that made our club different was...

Facebook !!!

We started both an open and secret group. Open to show anyone what we're up to, secret for paid members only to benefit. Facebook allows members to post what they are up to and everyone can jump in quickly, so although some club meets were planned months in advance many were thought up by members on a whim at short notice, and sometimes for the next or even same day. This lead to a lot of mini groups going off and taking photos of just about anything; I think the immediacy of using Facebook for this works very well indeed, and it makes it far easier to share images too. This was definitely a great idea

We only met every 2 weeks to avoid the boredom factor, but Facebook communication meant we were all in touch much more frequently than even weekly meetings allow, and

NO COMPETITIONS !!!

This is probably the biggest change from a 'normal' club environment which is largely based on competitions for their calendar

That was to allow everyone to take part sharing images without being 'ranked' or feeling pressured in any way and it worked well, to a point. On reflection, it meant we attracted complete newbies or those still new to photography who want hands-on help with everything. Established good togs who did join pretty much all left at the end of the first year

Effectively it became a learning club with only 2-3 people actually capable of teaching anything at a good level, and that fell to me too. As I wasn't getting paid for it, and each presentation could take many hours to prepare, I eventually had had enough and took a back seat, and shortly thereafter stopped going at all

Mid way into the 2nd year we did a questionnaire asking about competitions again and the result was about 28 against and 4 for them, so for newer members they really aren't of interest - its a confidence thing I guess but the two other main concerns were...

1 - from those good enough to win they didn't want newbies trying to judge their images, and conversely

2 - the newbies didn't want to give their opinion as they felt they didn't know enough to be worthy of passing an opinion without upsetting others​

It looks to me now that it'd be very difficult to have a club that pleases everyone. Newbies rightly need help with such basic info the established togs are bored; their needs are too advanced for the newbies so they get bored too, or just don't come on complicated nights

We also noticed a real problem in speakers too, largely as these fell into 4 categories with most being 2 or 3

1 - not really a good tog, can't teach at all - this group only ever presented once!

2 - good tog, lots to say, but very poor communication skills so it doesn't come across - quite a common group as few are adept at presenting to others, a real shame

3 - not really a good tog, but with great communication skills - this is the 'problem' group as great orators espousing crap are believed to be good by newbies and the newbies can be led in the wrong direction

4 - good tog, good presenter - this smallest group quickly become put upon to do the majority of the work. Few appreciate just how long it takes to create a good hour's presentation, and for most the time commitment becomes too great​

The club is still going btw and I believe still has 50-ish members, but the best togs and presenters all seem to have left now so quite what the future is I can't say


So what's the answer then?

I don't know but I wish I did. I just can't see how to maintain big numbers of members over the enormous range of abilities & interests, certainly not in the conventional meeting on night a week/fortnightly in a room somewhere

As my main personal interest is actually in Landscape Photography I've decided to launch my own Facebook Group for that soon too. If that leads to meetings all the better, I'll certainly be encouraging people simply to get together for mini shoots too; as well as sharing experiences and images


If you're an active club member I hope this helps a bit with a new thought. If you're contemplating joining a club then I'd strongly suggest you try ALL the ones local to you and see what, if any, fits in with where you are photographically and where you wish to go. Clubs where you meet are often held in a pub, so if nothing else you can have a chat & a pint

Dave

 

[stumac]

I think competitions are great . It's good to get crit and compare your images to other peoples also if a comp is coming up it really pushes people to get out and take the very best images they can . Last year I entered a comp through the BIPP in the wedding section and felt I really had no chance but wanted good feed back from the judges (trevor and fay yerbury) I got 2nd place and it done my lack of confince a world of good plus it was really good to see everyone else's images. It also gives everyone a good excuse to print the images which is a skill in itself which seems to be dying in this day and age

 

[DG Phototraining]

I think competitions are great . It's good to get crit and compare your images to other peoples also if a comp is coming up it really pushes people to get out and take the very best images they can . Last year I entered a comp through the BIPP in the wedding section and felt I really had no chance but wanted good feed back from the judges (trevor and fay yerbury) I got 2nd place and it done my lack of confince a world of good plus it was really good to see everyone else's images. It also gives everyone a good excuse to print the images which is a skill in itself which seems to be dying in this day and age

And I agree with all of that, well for those more capable as photographers. Newbies though don't seem to like the idea at all from my experience and our wee survey too

Oh, and well done too on your 2nd place. If you posted the image I'd like to see it, linky?

Dave

 

[stumac]

Thanks , I'm on the phone but I'll get it up later .
They may not like the idea only because they think or know they won't do well . They should know the feedback they will get maybe more important than winning. What about a new comer comp , with the amount of newbies you have it could be a close competition ? And make it all in the name of fun!!!

 

[DG Phototraining]

Thanks , I'm on the phone but I'll get it up later .
They may not like the idea only because they think or know they won't do well . They should know the feedback they will get maybe more important than winning. What about a new comer comp , with the amount of newbies you have it could be a close competition ? And make it all in the name of fun!!!

We did start off every pub meet with a 15 min session for anyone to show some images they wanted comment upon, so not 'judged' as such but anything about how to improve an image or what went wrong in one. All thought that a good idea, but very quickly no-one brought any

Oh well

Dave

 

[stumac]

http://flic.kr/p/fkKFjd

This may not work
From my phone.
Not exactly a
Mind Blowing image but the
Judges seemed to like the moment that was caught, it was in the documentary wedding section

 

[DG Phototraining]

http://flic.kr/p/fkKFjd

This may not work
From my phone.
Not exactly a
Mind Blowing image but the
Judges seemed to like the moment that was caught, it was in the documentary wedding section

The link worked for me

Its one of those moments that has a whole load of interpretations in it, from she's overcome with love, to upset she's going through with it, to she has terrible hayfever lol - nice one

Dave

 

[stumac]

funny enough the bride and groom call it the smelly finger shot lol

 

[Carl Hall]

I’ve quite often thought about joining a camera club but I have no idea what happens in them If I were to join one I would definitely want competitions with specific themes as I really think the extra focus outside of my comfort zone make me a much better photographer. I remember thinking that competitions were very intimidating when I was a newbie though, so I can 100%understand beginners not wanting them.

 

[DG Phototraining]

I’ve quite often thought about joining a camera club but I have no idea what happens in them If I were to join one I would definitely want competitions with specific themes as I really think the extra focus outside of my comfort zone make me a much better photographer. I remember thinking that competitions were very intimidating when I was a newbie though, so I can 100%understand beginners not wanting them.

And that's pretty much the problem in a nutshell - if you are confident enough to enter (thick skinned even) then they can be a great learning tool - but only IF there's enough time to discuss images properly. At one of my previous clubs there were so many entries no discussion took place much of the time and that annoyed people too

#can'twin

Dave

 

[Brian G]

I’ve quite often thought about joining a camera club but I have no idea what happens in them If I were to join one I would definitely want competitions with specific themes as I really think the extra focus outside of my comfort zone make me a much better photographer. I remember thinking that competitions were very intimidating when I was a newbie though, so I can 100%understand beginners not wanting them.

I think what happens largely depends on the club.
It seems that the majority run competitions, but there is no compulsion to enter.
The newbies can come along, judge the standards of entry and listen to the judges comments.
Once they know what the level of competition is like it's up to them if they submit an entry, which is the way I started.
I don't mind constructive criticism, but I do find some judges simply don't "get" some of the images they are critiquing, but this is always dismissed when they say "Of course, this is just my opinion and someone else may have a different one."
Before I started submitting for comps I was curious as to how much PP was allowed, or even expected, on images, and I find this is one of the big variables.
Some judges expect, and even encourage PP with comments like "You should clone this out" or "Move this from here to there" and I sometimes find this is quite frustrating,
I thought the idea is to judge peoples photographic skills, not their computer abilities.
Our club regularly runs members evenings, where people talk about their photography and discuss some of their images, why they took them, how they processed them etc.
We also have visits from guest speakers on various specialist subjects.

For me one of the best features of a club is the ability to interact with people who have a common interest, and I've learned a lot just by chatting with other club members.

 

[Carl Hall]

They definitely sound like something I would be really interested in; I've just started darkroom printing my photos too so it would be a good place to get feedback on actual printed work. I just Googled camera clubs near to me and my town has one that meets on a Monday night, typically I play skittles on Mondays so can't go! Others are a bit far for me to drive to weekly as well I think.

 

[StephenM]

I've occasionally looked around the internet to see what clubs are near me; and every single one of them has, or majors on, competitions. I'm not quite a newbie to photography; I probably am too thin skinned and certainly wouldn't expect to win; but I can't imagine ever joining a club that holds competitions as I disapprove on principle (for my type of photography and my aims).

 

[johnb]

Competitions do nothing for me hence my interest reducing in our local club

 

[edz]

For me, I like competitions, as I think feedback is critical to how I can improve. Saying that, that'd in a photographer eye. If I was shooting for a wedding, then feedback from other photographers wouldn't matter, it's the client that counts. But I still like critique, whether it's for personal photos or work related photos, it's another eye on a way I can I prove my photography.

 

[Brian G]

They definitely sound like something I would be really interested in; I've just started darkroom printing my photos too so it would be a good place to get feedback on actual printed work. I just Googled camera clubs near to me and my town has one that meets on a Monday night, typically I play skittles on Mondays so can't go! Others are a bit far for me to drive to weekly as well I think.

I think you'll find traditional darkroom work is very much a minority interest these days and you'd need to find a specialist club that supports it.
Of course, there's nothing stopping you from entering a traditional "wet" print into a regular club competition.
In 2 1/2 years membership I don't recall darkroom work being mentioned, let alone talked about at our club.

I've occasionally looked around the internet to see what clubs are near me; and every single one of them has, or majors on, competitions. I'm not quite a newbie to photography; I probably am too thin skinned and certainly wouldn't expect to win; but I can't imagine ever joining a club that holds competitions as I disapprove on principle (for my type of photography and my aims).

As I said previously, entering competitions is not compulsory, but if you go along and see what's been entered and listen to the judges comments, I believe it can only help your photography, although I think the majority of us have a competitive instinct and once you start entering comps you only want to improve your results.
In competitions or not, I'm always interested in what other people are photographing and often get ideas and inspiration from seeing other peoples images, whether it be at the club, in magazines or on the web.

For me, I like competitions, as I think feedback is critical to how I can improve. Saying that, that'd in a photographer eye. If I was shooting for a wedding, then feedback from other photographers wouldn't matter, it's the client that counts. But I still like critique, whether it's for personal photos or work related photos, it's another eye on a way I can I prove my photography.

I agree.
But my attitude used to be, "I'll take the picture that I like and if someone else likes it then it's a bonus."
Recently I have found that I have started taking photos that I think a judge will like, rather than the ones I like, or at least in addition to the ones I like.
As I said, the biggest variable is the judges opinion, and what one judge likes may not appeal to another, and there's no way you can take this into account when you submit your entry.

Consider that competitions only account for 50% of a clubs programme (typically one projected and one print comp per month at our club) that still leaves at least 2 weeks a month for "other business" and if you don't feel the club is filling those two weeks with useful material, then it's up to members to make it known to the organising committee what they would like to see the club doing.

Clubs are supposed to be run for the benefit of the members, and if the members don't feel the club is doing it's job then it's up to them to say so.

 

[Barryboy]

My own club is run on very similar lines to that of Brian G. We have a competition every month with an open subject and can put up to 2 entries into each of 3 categories.... Mono Print, Colour Print and Digital Image. We found that set subjects were not popular and entry numbers were sometimes very low so reverted to an 'open subject' policy. Now some members have no interest in competing for whatever reason, but still enjoy seeing the entries displayed and hearing the judge's comments on competition night. Other members are very keen and enter every month. Each to our own, as they say, but competition nights are very well attended so we've got it just about right.

The quality of judges, however, is variable. A lot of them are not exactly open to ideas/work that strays too far from the norm and we also hear judges say they "just don't see what the photographer was trying to say, here" but my own policy is that if I do something 'mainstream' that I think suitable I might put it in the competition, but most of the sort of stuff I do for my own enjoyment would be slaughtered by most judges so I don't bother most months.

Rob

 

[Quicksnapper]

I'm a member (and on the committee of ....) our local club and I think it has a definite role to play in my personal photographic journey. Our club organises a year round programme; talks, demonstrations, tutorials and practical sessions in the winter, and a series of a dozen summer evening events in June, July and August. We also hold year round "photo walks" in both rural and urban locations, usually led by a willing member. The summer events are outings to various locations such as historical buildings, gardens, sports events, industrial locations, nature reserves, chosen to get people to try their skills, the winter programme is as varied as possible and - happily - our speakers fall generally into Dave's category 4 above. (Can't recall a bad one to be honest). All of this adds up to around 50 photographic events every year.

In addition, we stage 3 or 4 exhibitions locally every year where members' work is displayed (and even sold on occasion). All events are open to all members and are very well attended by our 41 current members. (Last night's meeting saw around 35 people in attendance) Our membership ranges in age from 15 to 85 and we all get on together regardless.

Clearly, we're doing something right and yet it seems we are the polar opposite of Dave's fledgling club in many ways.

Firstly, whilst many of our members have Facebook accounts and we do have a club FB group, it sits unloved and unwanted in the ether, gathering virtual dust. No-one every uses it, never posts anything (especially not images) and tbh, we may as well shut it down as it adds nothing whatsoever to our club or its members. We have a vibrant and put to date web site where all club news and activities etc are publicised. Being the sociable bunch that we are, if anyone wants to organise a "side" event, they just put the word out and people either go along or not as they chose.

Secondly, competitions!. We do have competition programme both internally and against neighbouring clubs. Last year 35 members (out of 41!) entered over 420 images in our competitions. Entry is completely voluntary so I think these figures speak loudly of our members views on competitions, which i think are very valuable addition to our programme. Our comps are judged by highly experienced judges and I have yet to hear one being derogatory about any image. Yes, they may make suggestions as to how the image may be improved, or how they might have approached the same subject, but the critique is always positive, valuable and useful and I can't see how a bit of honest critique from someone of huge experience and knowledge can be anything other than a good thing. The competition nights are very popular and well attended even if members are not competing.

Judges look at an image as it is presented. If it's been highly PP'd or is straight out of the camera is actually pretty irrelevant to most, it's the end result that counts. Of our current top photographers (competitions wise), 1 never PPs his work beyond a very gentle crop, 2 make minor adjustments and the other is a bit of a PP fan, often producing composites etc. Therefore, competitions are not about your computer skills, they are about your skill as a photographer. Whether we like it or not, if we shoot with a digital camera, we have to have a computer to even look at our images. Where we take them from there is a matter of personal choice.

So, all in all, I think camera clubs have a very valuable role to play and I applaud their efforts in promoting photography as a creative and absorbing hobby for people of all ages and abilities.

 

[Carl Hall]

I'm a member (and on the committee of ....) our local club and I think it has a definite role to play in my personal photographic journey. Our club organises a year round programme; talks, demonstrations, tutorials and practical sessions in the winter, and a series of a dozen summer evening events in June, July and August. We also hold year round "photo walks" in both rural and urban locations, usually led by a willing member. The summer events are outings to various locations such as historical buildings, gardens, sports events, industrial locations, nature reserves, chosen to get people to try their skills, the winter programme is as varied as possible and - happily - our speakers fall generally into Dave's category 4 above. (Can't recall a bad one to be honest). All of this adds up to around 50 photographic events every year.

In addition, we stage 3 or 4 exhibitions locally every year where members' work is displayed (and even sold on occasion). All events are open to all members and are very well attended by our 41 current members. (Last night's meeting saw around 35 people in attendance) Our membership ranges in age from 15 to 85 and we all get on together regardless.

Clearly, we're doing something right and yet it seems we are the polar opposite of Dave's fledgling club in many ways.

Firstly, whilst many of our members have Facebook accounts and we do have a club FB group, it sits unloved and unwanted in the ether, gathering virtual dust. No-one every uses it, never posts anything (especially not images) and tbh, we may as well shut it down as it adds nothing whatsoever to our club or its members. We have a vibrant and put to date web site where all club news and activities etc are publicised. Being the sociable bunch that we are, if anyone wants to organise a "side" event, they just put the word out and people either go along or not as they chose.

Secondly, competitions!. We do have competition programme both internally and against neighbouring clubs. Last year 35 members (out of 41!) entered over 420 images in our competitions. Entry is completely voluntary so I think these figures speak loudly of our members views on competitions, which i think are very valuable addition to our programme. Our comps are judged by highly experienced judges and I have yet to hear one being derogatory about any image. Yes, they may make suggestions as to how the image may be improved, or how they might have approached the same subject, but the critique is always positive, valuable and useful and I can't see how a bit of honest critique from someone of huge experience and knowledge can be anything other than a good thing. The competition nights are very popular and well attended even if members are not competing.

Judges look at an image as it is presented. If it's been highly PP'd or is straight out of the camera is actually pretty irrelevant to most, it's the end result that counts. Of our current top photographers (competitions wise), 1 never PPs his work beyond a very gentle crop, 2 make minor adjustments and the other is a bit of a PP fan, often producing composites etc. Therefore, competitions are not about your computer skills, they are about your skill as a photographer. Whether we like it or not, if we shoot with a digital camera, we have to have a computer to even look at our images. Where we take them from there is a matter of personal choice.

So, all in all, I think camera clubs have a very valuable role to play and I applaud their efforts in promoting photography as a creative and absorbing hobby for people of all ages and abilities.

Sounds ace... don't spose your club is in South Somerset is it? ha

Also why do clubs always seem to meet on a Monday?? There are three or four reasonably local to me and they all seem to meet on Mondays!

 

[StephenM]

As I said previously, entering competitions is not compulsory, but if you go along and see what's been entered and listen to the judges comments, I believe it can only help your photography, although I think the majority of us have a competitive instinct and once you start entering comps you only want to improve your results.

In competitions or not, I'm always interested in what other people are photographing and often get ideas and inspiration from seeing other peoples images, whether it be at the club, in magazines or on the web.


But my attitude used to be, "I'll take the picture that I like and if someone else likes it then it's a bonus."
Recently I have found that I have started taking photos that I think a judge will like, rather than the ones I like, or at least in addition to the ones I like.
As I said, the biggest variable is the judges opinion, and what one judge likes may not appeal to another, and there's no way you can take this into account when you submit your entry.

The quotes that express your positive views neatly illustrate my negative ones. Your virtues are my vices - the things that I dislike.

1. I always want to improve; but in absolute, not relative terms. I don't know whether I should read "improve your results" in the first paragraph as "make better images" or "improve in competition ranking". I hope the former; but I don't need a competition to make me want to improve. And I freely admit that most people are competitive; but my hobby is photography, not competitions (some people do make a hobby of entering competitions of all types).

2. I can see a wide variety of images without needing a set of competition images to provide visual stimulation. Arguably, by studying the work of great photographers, I might even be looking at better images than appear in a club competition. And dare I say (probably not, on a photography forum ) that it's possible to learn as much from paintings as photographs.

3. You so nicely express the monumental downside of clubs when you state that "recently I have found that I have started taking photos that I think a judge will like". For me, that would be the end of self expression, the end of true creativity, and the wearing of an artistic straight jacket of conformity. I may produce conventional images - but they are what I want to produce; they express my way of seeing, my interests, my "take" on things, and not what I think (rightly or wrongly) someone else will like. Given your last quoted paragraph, it's not only limiting, but even self defeating.

Finally, just picking up on a point made by edz "For me, I like competitions, as I think feedback is critical to how I can improve". If competitions are the only way you can get feedback on photographs in a photographic club, then there's something seriously wrong with them, in my opinion. It seems to expose a fatal weakness, a "not fit for purpose". Now if they were titled "camera clubs" it would be excusable.

Anyone whose back I haven't got up by this post?

 

[pjm1]

Stephen, it sounds like you're quite a bit further on in your photographic hobby than I am, so perhaps we have different aims/aspirations.

One point of yours that I'd pick up on is that I see a positive challenge in trying to get a particular image / look / idea out of my camera. This could be an idea I've had, or it could be trying create something in a particular style than I know someone else will enjoy. It's not pandering or subverting my creativity, it's a test of my ability to capture the image that I want to present. When I'm happy I can reliable do this far more frequently then I'll genuinely feel that my photography has moved further foward.

Right now, I have a photographic idea and my ability to capture what's in my head in pixels (or on a negative) isn't great. I see my own photographic development being in two ways: (1) to improve the compositional and creative ideas I have; and (2) improve my reliability and predictability of being able to capture what I have in my head.

Things like the TP52 are a great help but I'd see real-life photographic competitions being equally helpful. For me personally, it wouldn't matter whether it's creating photos because I think they'll please the viewer or please myself: either one is improving #2. Improving #1 is a life-long challenge so I always take that one step at a time anyway...

 

[Steve Smith]

I think competitions are great . It's good to get crit and compare your images to other peoples

I posted a while ago about something a club I was a member of did which I thought was better than competitions.

You brought in a print and as each one was displayed, people were invited to comment on it and make suggestions. After a while, the photographer was identified (unless he wanted to remain anonymous) and he could also talk about it and what he was trying to achieve answer any questions.

I found this to be better than a competition as you got to hear what many people thought of your work rather than just one judge who was judging to a set of rules (in most cases).


Steve.

 

[TheBigYin]

The quotes that express your positive views neatly illustrate my negative ones. Your virtues are my vices - the things that I dislike.

1. I always want to improve; but in absolute, not relative terms. I don't know whether I should read "improve your results" in the first paragraph as "make better images" or "improve in competition ranking". I hope the former; but I don't need a competition to make me want to improve. And I freely admit that most people are competitive; but my hobby is photography, not competitions (some people do make a hobby of entering competitions of all types).

2. I can see a wide variety of images without needing a set of competition images to provide visual stimulation. Arguably, by studying the work of great photographers, I might even be looking at better images than appear in a club competition. And dare I say (probably not, on a photography forum ) that it's possible to learn as much from paintings as photographs.

3. You so nicely express the monumental downside of clubs when you state that "recently I have found that I have started taking photos that I think a judge will like". For me, that would be the end of self expression, the end of true creativity, and the wearing of an artistic straight jacket of conformity. I may produce conventional images - but they are what I want to produce; they express my way of seeing, my interests, my "take" on things, and not what I think (rightly or wrongly) someone else will like. Given your last quoted paragraph, it's not only limiting, but even self defeating.

Finally, just picking up on a point made by edz "For me, I like competitions, as I think feedback is critical to how I can improve". If competitions are the only way you can get feedback on photographs in a photographic club, then there's something seriously wrong with them, in my opinion. It seems to expose a fatal weakness, a "not fit for purpose". Now if they were titles "camera clubs" it would be excusable.

ANyone whose back I haven't got up by this post?

Me for one Stephen... as per usual I'm finding myself almost 100% in agreement with your comments

#1 - pretty much covers how I feel towards my photography - i'm always striving to produce better work, some would say I'm never happy with my output but it's not true - i'm occasionally happy with it, i'm just not always satisfied I couldn't do better next time.

#2 - I can certainly learn more about light and composition from studying paintings than I can by looking at the typical output in a photo clubs competiton.

#3 - "shooting for the judge not for me" was pretty much the reason I stopped entering the POTY competition on here - although at the time I was entering, the competition was "peer judged" - i.e. any of the members of TP could vote... so, I found myself shooting stuff with a more "mass appeal" than I would have done had it been strictly for my own consumption.

(and don't get me started about "camera clubs" - i've often thought that this forum I care for dearly would be better renamed "talk cameras" as any discussion of the artistic side of the process seems to get jumped up and down upon in fairly short order)

That said, I've nothing against competitions per se... my signature shows I'm actually promoting the 2015 POTY on here, so it'd be hypocritical of me to say they're of no use... they are great for some people, especially if there are "themes" to shoot against, which provides useful prods into different directions or techniques for people who wish to experiment but haven't the initial inspiration to do so... Some people enjoy them, others don't - neither group are right or wrong - there is no right or wrong in this, simply personal preference.

As a staff member who's helping out on the POTY this year I couldn't enter if I wanted to (even if theres no specific rule against it, my own ethics would preclude it) but I'm actually tempted to use the 12 subjects/themes as a prompt for a personal project over the year.

 

[StephenM]

It's a valid point you make there about how far on people are. I might not be so far on in photography, just in inflexibility . I honestly don't know if clubs have a particular demographic that they appeal to. Certainly, given the prevalence of competitions, they'll work by natural selection to gain competition minded members.

I can also see the point made that beginners are unwilling (or too nervous) to offer opinions on photographs, and this makes it difficult for beginners to learn. I wonder if any clubs have ever had lectures/talks/demonstrations showing how to actually go about looking at/studying a photograph?

My "needs" for creating a look are simple. OK, I like the rich print quality of (say) Ansel Adams, and that is certainly a "look". But most of these things are easy enough to work out how it's done, even if not so easy to achieve in practice. Even Ansel Adams and Edward Weston sometimes had to spend days getting a print exactly as they wanted it. Knowing how to do it is one thing, the execution another. But the "knowing how to do it" isn't hard to pick up in most cases.

To me it does matter whether I'm creating to please myself or please someone else, because I think that only in the former case am I actually expressing what I think, I like, I feel. Very egotistical in fact.

I fear I may be taking this thread way off topic now.

 

[Quicksnapper]

Sounds ace... don't spose your club is in South Somerset is it? ha

Also why do clubs always seem to meet on a Monday?? There are three or four reasonably local to me and they all seem to meet on Mondays!

Sadly not. We're up in the East Midlands, but you'd be welcome to drop in if you're passing. We meet on Wednesdays so no clash with your other activities.

 

[pjm1]

Sadly not. We're up in the East Midlands, but you'd be welcome to drop in if you're passing. We meet on Wednesdays so no clash with your other activities.

Ooh... whereabouts in the East Mids? I'm down in Lincs periodically

 

[Quicksnapper]

Ooh... whereabouts in the East Mids? I'm down in Lincs periodically

Leicestershire. Might be a bit far from Lincoln.

 

[pjm1]

Not too bad... and I do spend more time than my wife would like at Welford Road (although not on Wednesdays obviously!)

 

[Carl Hall]

I like the idea of competitions more for their themes which push me in directions I wouldn't normally go. A few years ago I decided to enter a "black and white flower" competition and it was something I'd never tried before. I spent ages going different round florists buying a range of flowers, and then finding ways to shoot them. In the end I settled on a gerbera (I do love gerberas) which rested on a thin piece of acetate to give a nice reflection (glass didn't work as it gave me a double reflection). For me the best bit wasn't the competitive aspect, the drive to "beat" others (although I did come first out of 240 ), or to please the judges, it was simply a way for me to work outside of my normal area and try something new. It's similar to when people say that shooting with a single fixed focal length lens can improve your photography by forcing you to try things that you wouldn't normally do.

Perhaps I'm using the wrong word, as a "competition" is mainly about the fight for first place. I think what I'd be really interested in is a club where everyone displays a photo and then other members walk around viewing and discussing the photos, and have the opportunity to write some feedback underneath. Pretty much exactly what parts of this forum are, but in an actual real world environment with local people

 

[DG Phototraining]

When first entering club competitions I'd suggest considering them as...

1 - first 2 or 3 are you finding your feet so to speak, how comps work and perhaps more importantly how judging works; so it doesn't matter if you're 5th or 50th

2 - once you know how it all works, your initial competitor is your last score; so long as 50th becomes 48th, 46th, 30th... you're doing ok

3 - if & when you get into the top 10, and especially top 5, now's the time to be really honing your comp skills as much as your photography

4 - after your first win aim for the 'Titles' i.e. B&W print/projected image of the year etc.

5 - now go for the overall Photographer of the Year - POTY Title

6 - now aim to win EVERYTHING and EVERY Title, and if you do that

7 - give up comps, let someone else have a crack. After all, you don't want to be knocked off your perch by some jumped up upstart !!!

8 - once you've identified the new upstart exists, move clubs

Dave

 

[DaveS2]

An interesting summary Dave, and one based on personal experience, which gives it good credibility.

The phrase that comes to mind is, "you can please most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".

I have been a keen amateur photographer, for something like 60 years, and have never tired of the hobby (hobby that is, not obsession).

Often I had thought of joining a club, to share my interest with like-minded people, but had always been put-off by their stereo-typical image of being stuck in a time warp, and obsessed with competitions

A couple years ago I found a relatively young club, it then being only two years old, and one that had a good balance between competitions, and other activities of amateur photography interest.

I went along as a visitor, was made to feel very welcome, and joined there and then.

Not being that interested in photography competitions, I did enter their limited number of competitions, just for the fun of it, and to be supportive as a club member. After listening to a variety of judges, it became very apparent just how subjective the judging process is. I should say that having been a keen sportsman in my younger days, I am used to having to cross a defined finishing line, not a subjective one.

However, I did find the judges comments of interest, and in some cases, of value. However, there was no getting away from the fact that the whole process was just too subjective to be taken seriously.

I enjoyed two years at the club, but this all changed when two competition fanatics, got onto the committee, and immediately trebled the number of competitions, with plans to increase it even further.

To me, and some others, the club had now become no different to other competition obsessed clubs in the area, and we left.

If you see photography competitions as the "be all, and end all" of camera club life, then you are in luck, as I would hazard a guess that almost all camera clubs, are more about competitions, than amateur photography.

Dave

 

[DG Phototraining]

An interesting summary Dave, and one based on personal experience, which gives it good credibility.

The phrase that comes to mind is, "you can please most of the people most of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time".

I have been a keen amateur photographer, for something like 60 years, and have never tired of the hobby (hobby that is, not obsession).

Often I had thought of joining a club, to share my interest with like-minded people, but had always been put-off by their stereo-typical image of being stuck in a time warp, and obsessed with competitions

A couple years ago I found a relatively young club, it then being only two years old, and one that had a good balance between competitions, and other activities of amateur photography interest.

I went along as a visitor, was made to feel very welcome, and joined there and then.

Not being that interested in photography competitions, I did enter their limited number of competitions, just for the fun of it, and to be supportive as a club member. After listening to a variety of judges, it became very apparent just how subjective the judging process is. I should say that having been a keen sportsman in my younger days, I am used to having to cross a defined finishing line, not a subjective one.

However, I did find the judges comments of interest, and in some cases, of value. However, there was no getting away from the fact that the whole process was just too subjective to be taken seriously.

I enjoyed two years at the club, but this all changed when two competition fanatics, got onto the committee, and immediately trebled the number of competitions, with plans to increase it even further.

To me, and some others, the club had now become no different to other competition obsessed clubs in the area, and we left.

If you see photography competitions as the "be all, and end all" of camera club life, then you are in luck, as I would hazard a guess that almost all camera clubs, are more about competitions, than amateur photography.

Dave

I remember discussing this with you well over a year ago

And what a b****r that someone has come along and screwed it up

For my sins I'd due for consideration as a competition judge by the YPU in the near future, but I totally agree that (aside from a few obvious - sharp, blown, in focus, etc.) it is subjective and thankfully so. I'd hate to think there was only one way of shooting & presenting my photography (or others) so I welcome that part of it, although I also except just how bloody frustrating it can be at times too having been on the receiving end of some rather odd marking at times myself

There's an old saying in judging that only one person will like you at the end of the night, the winner, and everyone else will think you're a pillock (or worse) lol

I trust you're still loving your hobby as much and maybe you'll find a new club as a home too - fingers crossed for you bud

Dave

 

[DaveS2]

I trust you're still loving your hobby as much

Indeed I am Dave, just as much as I always have.

I did enjoy my time at the club, until the competition fanatics took over, but I haven't lost any sleep over it, and am happy to leave them to it.

As for finding another club, that is not obsessed with competitions, I can't see that happening, as they are such a rarity.

This statement published on their web-site, by a very long established club, pretty much sums up the reality of club level photography competitions, and this is from a club that has more competitions "than you can shake a stick at".

"In the monthly competitions the main objective is to appreciate other peoples work, learn from the comments from the judges and other members and to have fun. After all, the judging is only one person's opinion and after a while you get to know that the judge is ALWAYS wrong unless of course your picture has won!"

Yet many club photographers take them so seriously.

At one particular club that I am aware of, they don't have a "winner", but allow the judge to mark the entries as he or she sees fit. They don't ask them to pick a "winner", and as such, the judge is free to award the full 20 marks (or other marks) to as many images as they judge worthy of it.

That way, the members get to hear the judges feedback, which can be quite interesting, but nobody gets put on a meaningless "winners pedestal".

Dave

 

[Jannyfox]

Sounds ace... don't spose your club is in South Somerset is it? ha

Also why do clubs always seem to meet on a Monday?? There are three or four reasonably local to me and they all seem to meet on Mondays!

My first thought too. Also from South Somerset but having looked at the program for my local club (fortnightly meetings), of the 6 posted 4 are competitions, 1 is the AGM and 1 actually sounds fun (except that you also bring along competition entries). Having looked at the winners galleries, I find it no surprise to see the same names repeated endlessly.
It's not a Monday - only good thing. I've thought about going, but....................

 

[viewfromthenorth]

I'm no longer a member of a club, but got a lot out of it when I was. Up to a point anyway, the direction I was starting to take meant I wasn't really getting much more out of the club.

Competitions were useful in helping me up the quality of my work as was going for RPS distinctions (which I'm still doing). I know some people who are going down the PAGB route and they are producing a very high standard of work.

I am still involved in a monochrome group who meet monthly and just stand up and discuss their work. No competitions and twice yearly we have a keynote speaker for a day which is always good.

I also lecture to camera clubs, and I make a point of saying on my website that my talk is not your typical camera club talk (I've sat through enough of them to know that). I'd sat through enough poor ones to realise that 'I could do better than that' so I put my money where my mouth was and put myself out there!

 

[DaveS2]

For your amusement, here's an example of club level judging.

Last year, I captured what I thought was quite an appealing shot of a Robin. He posed perfectly for me, and had a nice 'catch-light' in his eye.

I posted it on another photography forum, and it received complimentary comments.

One member who is a very good wild-life photographer, and keen competition type (at which he does quite well), said that from a composition aspect a competition judge would prefer to see the bird set to one side of the frame, with more space to the side of the frame, in the direction the bird was looking. I had the bird centred in the frame

So, having the original from which the image was cropped, I re-composed the shot, as suggested.

By co-incidence, a couple of weeks later, there was a wildlife competition at the club to which I belonged at the time, so I entered my image.

I didn't win, and nor did I expect to, but while the judge commented favourably on my image, she said it would look better if he bird was centered in the frame, and not set off to one side.

As Richard Wilson of 'One foot in the grave' fame would say, "I don't bloody believe it".

Dave

 

[viewfromthenorth]

I was once marked down because of blown highlights in the sun. It's the fxxxing sun for goodness sake! I've had another judge tell me that he didn't like my choice of a sunburst filter on a night photograph - I don't even own one. The effect was due to the aperture blades on the sigma lens I was using - lesson there is don't make assumptions that you know how the photographer took the picture.
In fairness judging is hard, I've done it once for an arts festival and had to judge around 300-400 entire in an afternoon on my own. Never again.

 

[DaveS2]

I'm not 'knocking' the judges Andy, as in general they do a pretty good job, to the best of their ability, but there is no consistency from judge to judge, and nor can there be, as they are only human like the rest of us.

They will all have (or should have) attended a judges course or two, where they will have assimilated a set of basic rules to work with. However, IMO, you cannot teach subjectivity as it is a very personal attribute.

Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder, and as such we all see things differently, which is just as well or the world would be a very boring place if we didn't.

Sometimes it is good to look at things from another persons perspective, and in some cases, I did learn from a judges comments.

However, it is because photographic judging becomes so subjective, once it goes beyond the basic technical parameters, that I cannot take photography competitions seriously. Different judges can, and do mark the same image differently.

Perhaps, where there is a panel of judges, a more balanced outcome would be forthcoming, but as at club level it is almost universally a single judge, any "winner" is nothing more than that individual judge's opinion.

Dave

 

[viewfromthenorth]

The beauty of judging is its subjectivity and the different perspectives it brings. I've seen a lot of judging done very well and had things pointed out to me that I'd never seen in my own work.

The worst judges are the ones who cannot put aside their prejudices (its impossible to completely, granted) make massive leaps of faith in their comments and in one case, ignored our clubs scoring system and did it his own way.

 

[Quicksnapper]

I'm not 'knocking' the judges Andy, as in general they do a pretty good job, to the best of their ability, but there is no consistency from judge to judge, and nor can there be, as they are only human like the rest of us.

They will all have (or should have) attended a judges course or two, where they will have assimilated a set of basic rules to work with. However, IMO, you cannot teach subjectivity as it is a very personal attribute.

Beauty is very much in the eye of the beholder, and as such we all see things differently, which is just as well or the world would be a very boring place if we didn't.

Sometimes it is good to look at things from another persons perspective, and in some cases, I did learn from a judges comments.

However, it is because photographic judging becomes so subjective, once it goes beyond the basic technical parameters, that I cannot take photography competitions seriously. Different judges can, and do mark the same image differently.

Perhaps, where there is a panel of judges, a more balanced outcome would be forthcoming, but as at club level it is almost universally a single judge, any "winner" is nothing more than that individual judge's opinion.

Dave

At our club, members are allowed to enter 3 images (either prints or digitals) with each scoring a maximum of 20 points. The winner is the member who scores the highest cumulative score out of a possible 60. However, we have had many an occasion where an image has scored 19 or 20 in an internal competition, and gone on to score 12 in an external event against another club, simply because the other judge didn't like the work or the subject matter.

It's frustrating but it's life!

As for taking it seriously...!! No-one (to my knowledge) has ever died as a reply of a camera club judge not liking his/her work. It's a hobby, not life or death and should be treated as such IMO. Yes, produce your best work for competitions, but don't get upset if you're a landscape specialist and the judge loves wildlife and judges accordingly.