c41 - what went wrong?

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I developed a colour roll at home the other night, but when I took it out of the tank, the images were very faint. By the time I'd hung it, they'd all totally disappeared.
They were the same chemicals as I'd used for the "roll of film challenge", and I hadn't used them to exhaustion - or so I thought.
I'm sure I did all the routine stuff right (changeing bag, temperature, times, inversions etc), and as the roll came out 100% blank (not even frame lines), I'm suspecting something was up with the chemicals.
Anyone else had something like this?
 
I've had the same with B&W and it was exhausted chemicals. The bottle had been open for a couple of months and even though it hadn't been diluted, when I went to use it the developer was knackered.
 
If the image disappeared in front of your eyes it sounds like the fix was exhausted. If it is left open for a while, or nearly empty, then it slowly goes off and eventually won't work.

IDK about C41 but in B&W you can generally tell by the smell if the fix is too weak,
 
If it was the Tetenal C41 kit, then the BLIX was knackered. Even kept in the dark, completely airtight and air free, it's only got a 3 months shelf life. If the bottle's got an airspace at the top, then it's less than that. You do need to be processing at least one film a week with the c41 kit to get anything like value for money out of it :(
 
Blix needs air, a lack of air will exhaust it. To give it a kick put it in a half filled bottle and shake then add 5% Acetic acid.
 
Rolleikin said:
Blix needs air, a lack of air will exhaust it. To give it a kick put it in a half filled bottle and shake then add 5% Acetic acid.
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So I take it that you're saying that the Tetenal instructions to "keep working solutions in completely full and well sealed glass or plastic bottles"* are a cynical attempt to get us to mung our chemicals prematurely, so that they can sell us more ? Not having a pop, by the way - just surprised that they'd recommend a storage regime that would shorten the life of the chemical.








*direct quote from Tetenal C41 manual page 8 - just to clarify sources (and make it easier for Tetenals solicitors to get all legal on Rolleikin :lol:)
 
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I bought a C41 processing thingy ... (havent used it yet.)


Its a big drum, with heated water bath, and 6 tube wells for your chemicals.
It will do about 12 rolls at a time. You load the 'dipper tube thingy' ??? up with jobo rolls, then you dip them in each tube of chemicals at a time. I was told to airate the bleach for a minute or so - to 'activate' it. So Rollie, makes some sense to me.

that is all I know ...

Like I said , I havent set it all up to use it yet, nor done any 'homework' so I do not preach the gospel :)
 
Hmmm.
I wasn't having trouble over the summer, when I must have been developing a film most weeks, so I think the advice I'm gleaning is shoot more film and develop it more regularly.
I can reconcile the more air/less air argument in my head. The blix needs air to work, but will presumably loose it's effect if it's continually expose to air?
I have a couple of "found" rolls I can experiment on. I don't have any idea if there's anything on them, so have nothing to loose! At least if they come out black, I'll know the blix is working if not the developer.
Is spirit vinegar fine to use as acetic acid?
Thanks for the help, all!
 
TheBigYin said:
So I take it that you're saying that the Tetenal instructions to "keep working solutions in completely full and well sealed glass or plastic bottles"* are a cynical attempt to get us to mung our chemicals prematurely, so that they can sell us more ?

*direct quote from Tetenal C41 manual page 8 - just to clarify sources (and make it easier for Tetenals solicitors to get all legal on Rolleikin :lol:)
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Yes I use those chemicals too and Tetenal are wrong. Bleach MUST be aerated in order to work correctly, commercial labs use sparge bars to push air constantly though the solution.
The bleach component (normally EDTA salt based) forms iron if not oxygenated this causes an increase in leuco cyan dye generation and eventual failure.

How do I know this?
I owned and worked with many different systems in my own prolab for 17 years.
Here is a much better set of instructions than the ones you get with the Tetenal kits (which are a joke).
Fuji Hunts Data sheet for the C41 process
Page 14 gives the relevant info bleach agitation should be by 'oil free air', Tetenal are just giving you the generic 'keep in full bottle' advice you must follow for all other solutions.

In the possible faults section:
"The tank solution must be continuously aerated while the processing machine is running in order to avoid problems of either leuco cyan dye or silver retention. The pH of the tank solution shouldn’t be allowed to rise above 3.80. If necessary, increase quantity of
nitric acid during the regeneration operation to give a pH of 3.40 in the rebuilt replenisher".

So it needs air and must be acidic, developer (p.h 11 for colour dev) carry over will quickly bring the ph up to p.h 5-6 where the bleach will become less effective.
Another important thing is you can't really over bleach using normal systems, 6 mins is pretty much the minimum although the rapid acid laden bleaches can do it in 4 -keep to 6min and you'lll be safe.
5% acetic acid will help and old bleach recover, as will aeration.
 
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Genuis! I'll look at that link when I'm at a proper computer.
I've done about 30 rolls so far this year (ever), and this was the only mess-up I couldn't track back to a fault with my process. My other two mistakes were putting the blix in before the developer and taking the wrong lid off the developing tank!
Both were because I was too tired to concentrate, and had decided that developing films would be a nice wind down. WRONG! you need to be conscious to develop film!
 
Fair enough - i'd not really had problems anyway, but i'd been giving it quite a bit extra on the BLIX timings after the third or fourth film I processed, as everything came out a bit "milky" with the standard timings. I guess they've just been lazy, and given the standard recommendation, and not added a caveat for the Blix :shrug:
 
I've been processing my own colour film professionally and as an amateur for many years. The first one of these kits I used was made by Photocolour (Johnsons of Hendon) I ran up against the increased thoughput ph problem early on and soon found the answer from Kodak (who were very helpful).

My advice is to keep all the solutions in full bottles but to put the bleach one in a larger bottle before processing and shake it for 1 min before you heat it up in the water bath just to condition it. (the aeration should be fast vigourous)
The bleach should 'fizz' and the bubbles should look yellow-red-brown. The smell should be acidicbut clean and sharp- quite hard to explain but it you do this to fresh stuff you'll never forget the smell.
If it smells organic-like pongy old pond water-you need acid (or the bleach does)
If in doubt buy some kiddy chemistry set p.h indicators-bleach must be acid!
If the films looks dark brown the bleach is the first suspect.
 
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Rolleikin said:
I've been processing my own colour film professionally and as an amateur for many years. The first one of these kits I used was made by Photocolour (Johnsons of Hendon)
.
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Great stuff, I used to develope my negs then use the same chemicals for the colour prints, after using a supplied additive.
 
Shame there are no single use colour setups. I am getting a MF camera in the new year (my Christmas pressy) but will rarely use colour.
 
Digibase is OK to use as one shot, and lasts a long time without "proper" storage.
There was a thread I think on APUG, a film was developed a couple of months after the first roll, chemicals stored in half full bottles, film looked fine.
Digibase from my own tests stores a lot better than previous C-41 kits.
 
I thought everyone knew that you had to get plenty of air into the bleach fix.
 
classcams said:
I thought everyone knew that you had to get plenty of air into the bleach fix.
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Strange as it may seem to you, some of us have only just started to process colour film. My personal experience with C41 amounts to the use of a few of the tetenal C41 kits, all of which have had the same instructions in them - to wit, to keep ALL the chemicals in airtight conditions, making NO reference to aeration of the BLIX prior to use. Just how exactly am I supposed to know that this information is wrong, bearing in mind, i've not actually experienced any problems with the chemicals and working with them as per the instructions.

Please do not assume that everyone in this forum has the same background as you have, and perhaps post something helpful rather than just attempting to belittle your fellow forumites :shrug:
 
Update

Well, I might have skipped on some details that may be of interest to TheBigYin and Cowasaki...

I have been using the tetenal kit, but strayed from the instructions. The Tetenal kit according to the instructions makes 1 litre of developer. I figured that one litre is four lots of 250ml and that is the amount I need in my developing tank. So... I've been mixing the concentrate in smaller batches, keeping the unused chemicals in their concentrated state until needed. This seems to extend their useful life by a few weeks (I started using the current pack about four months ago, and developed this last night from the same lot packet of chems as my original mistake:
Scan1553.jpg

Now I started this thread because I messed up. I'm not sure what went wrong, maybe the lids weren't on airtight or whatever. I think the moral is that I need better chemical control.
Unfortunately I tipped the mixture that caused the original problem away in frustration, so I've been unable to test Rolleikin's suggestion reliably. I did have some known expired mixed up chemicals that I tried with test strips and oxygenating the blix (and adding vinegar), but I thing that batch as two far gone, I just got negatives the colour of Lucozade!

So, with good housekeeping I think you can spread the use of a single batch of Tetenal c41 kit over more than 4 months after opening it by using it as a 4 shot developer, you just need to be more methodical than me!
 
Ahhh - the 4 x 250ml isn't really an option for me, as processing a 120 roll in my patterson tank requires 500ml of chem's. I usually mix up the entire 1l, which also gives me the option of processing 2x35mm films at once (600ml) should I require to. :shrug:

I'll probably drop processing colour for a while when this batch of chemicals expire tbh. as I'm really not shooting enough to get value from the chemicals before expiring :(
 
You really should try the digibase kit, no blix and lasts a long time in either stock or diluted form.
 
Edtog said:
You really should try the digibase kit, no blix and lasts a long time in either stock or diluted form.
Click to expand...

That was probably going to be what i'd try - maybe in the summer when I might be able to get out a bit more. At the moment I'm a little restricted in my shooting - my Dad, who lives with me, took a fall around 3 months ago, and broke his hip. What with the initial time in hospital, then physio visits etc. and of course the additional time I've needed to spend looking after him, i've been lucky to get out for more than a hour or so uninterrupted. As I spend ages faffing around or waiting for the conditions, especially when i'm shooting film, i've really not been shooting much of anything to be honest. 3 Days before he fell, I purchased a (whispers) Canon 7D and a bunch of L glass to go with it. Believe it or not, I charged the battery yesterday for the second time - i'd shot so little, it was still on the first charge after 3 months :( If I haven't found time to try out my expensive new toy, what chance do I have in using the film kit and doing my own developing :shake::shake:
 
Edtog said:
You really should try the digibase kit, no blix and lasts a long time in either stock or diluted form.
Click to expand...

:thumbs: On your recommendation, I took delivery of one of the midi kits (along with some Rodinal and Rollei retro rolls) from AG photographic a couple of days ago.

I'll use the last of the Tetenal kit first though, otherwise I'll have too many open bottles around.
 
Just bumping up this thread because it seems to be where all the C-41 gurus are.

Using Tetenal C-41 kit, and the last two rolls I developed together (in a Jobo CPE2) came out with a green cast to them. I've attached a picture - the strip of negatives above is from a previous different roll development with the kit, the strip of negatives on the bottom is from one of the rolls in question.

Temperature control was tight, over the 3:45 minutes of dev the temperature hardly deviated. However, this was roll 10, is this sort of result indicative of exhausted developer? PhotoEngineer over at APUG suggests it might be exhausted blix, but does anyone have any experience with C-41 negatives turning out with a green cast?

Both are the same emulsion, Kodak Gold 200.

DSC_3314_800px.jpg
 
freecom2 said:
Just bumping up this thread because it seems to be where all the C-41 gurus are.

Using Tetenal C-41 kit, and the last two rolls I developed together (in a Jobo CPE2) came out with a green cast to them. I've attached a picture - ............
Click to expand...

There's certainly something going on there! You really should be able to get more than ten rolls out of a single kit. How long ago did you mix the kit up (you didn't mention in your post)?

My current batch was mixed up on the 5th December (2011!) and developed its 11th and 12th rolls today without any real problems (I'm not a high volume user)......... I always use it at 30°C rather than 38°C and suffer the longer dev times. Maybe this has an effect on the shelf life of the chemicals?

Here's one from one of today's rolls:

Tulip Raindrops #1 - Fuji C200 by Ronan_C, on Flickr

Obviously not the world's best photo but I can't fault the chemistry even after 4 months stored in old plastic 1 litre water bottles.
 
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Ronan said:
There's certainly something going on there! You really should be able to get more than ten rolls out of a single kit. How long ago did you mix the kit up (you didn't mention in your post)?
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Hi Ronan, welcome to TP. I've seen you've been active in F&C, I hope you stay :) always nice to have some new faces here (the old faces... well :lol:)

It's in a shared darkroom unfortunately, so I have no control over the mixing of the chemicals although from what I recall it was near the end of March. I reckon the blix or developer have been slightly contaminated by one or the other. I messaged Photo Engineer on APUG and I'm going to try and re-blix the film on his recommendation to see if that solves it.

I'm just hoping it was a blix problem rather than a developer problem - i.e. something that can be rectified.
 
Cheers for the welcome. I've been snooping on and off for a while ;)

Hope the re-blix sorts it........ I'd be interested to see the result either way.
 
Ronan said:
Cheers for the welcome. I've been snooping on and off for a while ;)

Hope the re-blix sorts it........ I'd be interested to see the result either way.
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I was alarmed to hear that the current result is what E-6 film looks like when it is cross-processed in C-41 chemicals. I mean just how wrong could it have gone...!

I used to be a lurker on the forum before signing up, same goes for most places really. I too hope the re-blix (fresh blix, may I add) sorts it out, most of my C-41 dev so far has gone relatively smoothly and any problems really can suck the joy out of it all.
 
Edtog said:
You really should try the digibase kit, no blix and lasts a long time in either stock or diluted form.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna haul this topic back out, since I'm on the verge of buying new chems... the digibase kit seems to suggest it'll make batches that, in the case of the dev, can soup up to five or six rolls providing they're done within a six hour space...
How long does it stay good, in your experience?
 
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