Buying from Panamoz, what are the risks?

[fulwood]

JR

'You realise that's a little like blaming the police for not catching you speeding?'

No, not a valid argument, I am breaking the law as soon as I speed, BUT the taxman has a duty to levy appropriate taxes on items/matters that pass through / or are part of his jurisdiction. The taxman is being negligent and in dereliction of his duties if he doesn't examine goods in transit from abroad - would be my take.

 

[Rebel t3i]

The tax man made these rules and implemented this system as the shipping agent then becomes an unpaid tax collector
The tax man may well change the system if and when he feels it would be cost effective to do so at the moment the taxes are collected for free
to use your example of speeding then would you ring the police and tell them every time you broke the speed limit lol

 

[DemiLion]

JR

'You realise that's a little like blaming the police for not catching you speeding?'

No, not a valid argument, I am breaking the law as soon as I speed, BUT the taxman has a duty to levy appropriate taxes on items/matters that pass through / or are part of his jurisdiction. The taxman is being negligent and in dereliction of his duties if he doesn't examine goods in transit from abroad - would be my take.

Untrue. Because the packages are deliberately mislabelled and because no attempt is made to declare the items as being subject to import VAT, you are actively evading tax which is illegal. The onus is on you as the importer to declare the goods. That's why fines exist for evasion.

 

[domino1999]

If Panamoz and their ilk don't pay tax then I agree it is a form of tax evasion. If Amazon, Starbucks, Google etc can do it then why can't the small guy too. I'm irritated by the London billionaire paying the same in council tax as I do etc. etc. I suppose that with the massive all-round amount of tax avoidance/evasion in the UK we are slowly sliding into a Greek style tax joke situation, but I suppose I'm showing my age .... the world is not like it used to be and we are all becoming sleazy, it's just human nature isn't it? Go with the flow.

So what to do? Having worked in the public sector all my life and just starting my retirement on a feeble pension I want to feed my hobby as economically as possible. Canon - why make such desirable products!! Buying from Panamoz means I can just about afford a 5D Mk III if I sell all my used photo gear, with not a grey import amongst it! But I won't be able to say that about any photo gear I'll be selling in the future. Sorry, but I'm voting with my wallet, I'm too poor to do otherwise!

I'll be emailing Panamoz shortly....

Totally agree

Then why not buy from them and then declare to HMRC? Panamoz state they will pay any extras!

Indeed, they do say they will cover any tax and import duties, but I'm not sure anyone's actually been stung by HMRC and had to claim it back from Panamoz....yet.

 

[HoppyUK]

I can't help thinking there is a major storm brewing here. I'm surprised there hasn't been one already, and amazed that the UK photo industry has not banded together with a whole bunch of other industries suffering in the same way.

One easy way to stop it would be to prosecute a few buyers, confiscate the equipment and levy a fine, plus criminal record. News like that would spread around the web in minutes and stop it dead.

That's if laws are actually being broken of course. I believe most of it is legal in theory, it just needs for the goods to take a devious supply route so that they are not legally liable for VAT and duty. But there are other sellers that just take a chance, knowing that the likelyhood of being caught is remote, so they're happy to cough up and pay the VAT now and then.

It's probably not easy to stop completely, but it's not morally right and it's killing UK retail. I'm looking for a 7D body, A bit over £1k from legit UK dealers, £659 from Panamoz by BT...

 

[neil_g]

Going back to the original question.. Remember kids, Sigma won't warranty imports (people have had bother with lenses purchased from Amazon UK but shipped from Europe).

I've also heard of them refusing to work on them at all, some have had better luck though.

 

[JonathanRyan]

JR

'You realise that's a little like blaming the police for not catching you speeding?'

No, not a valid argument, I am breaking the law as soon as I speed, BUT the taxman has a duty to levy appropriate taxes on items/matters that pass through / or are part of his jurisdiction. The taxman is being negligent and in dereliction of his duties if he doesn't examine goods in transit from abroad - would be my take.

As others have pointed out, that's not the way it works.

You may think it's ridiculous and unfair that you are responsible for taxes on an item another person ships to you but that's the way it is.

In my book you have 3 choices with laws:

1. Obey them
2. Accept the consequences of breaking them
3. Attempt to get them changed

#3 is a pretty slow process so you'll need to decide on either 1 or 2 in the interim.

BTW pretty bold to announce you intend to smuggle goods and then tell the customs boys they are being "negligent" in not catching you

I can't help thinking there is a major storm brewing here. I'm surprised there hasn't been one already, and amazed that the UK photo industry has not banded together with a whole bunch of other industries suffering in the same way.

One easy way to stop it would be to prosecute a few buyers, confiscate the equipment and levy a fine, plus criminal record. News like that would spread around the web in minutes and stop it dead.

That's if laws are actually being broken of course. I believe most of it is legal in theory, it just needs for the goods to take a devious supply route so that they are not legally liable for VAT and duty. But there are other sellers that just take a chance, knowing that the likelyhood of being caught is remote, so they're happy to cough up and pay the VAT now and then.

It's probably not easy to stop completely, but it's not morally right and it's killing UK retail. I'm looking for a 7D body, A bit over £1k from legit UK dealers, £659 from Panamoz by BT...

I don't know any more about this than I've read on the web - but the HMRC website makes it fairly clear that no matter how devious a route, tax is due on imports. I'll say again I'm baffled why they aren't enforcing it - but that's a great point that the UK retailers could lobby them to do so. I guess they are too busy struggling for survival to be proactive

And if all this seems unfair.....

Last year I went to Peru. I had with me a Fuji X100 that I had bought in the UK tax paid. I had receipts to prove this. On entry to Peru I was charged about $150 extra tax because that's the way their law works. I was due a refund on exit - this took over 4 HOURS to arrange. Most of it in Spanish. I honestly think nobody had ever got one before. But rule number 1 of travelling: you do not mess with the customs.

 

[HoppyUK]

<snip>

I don't know any more about this than I've read on the web - but the HMRC website makes it fairly clear that no matter how devious a route, tax is due on imports. I'll say again I'm baffled why they aren't enforcing it - but that's a great point that the UK retailers could lobby them to do so. I guess they are too busy struggling for survival to be proactive

And if all this seems unfair.....

<snip>

There is, or certainly used to be, an industry body called the BPIA (British Photographic Industry Associating) that was formed to debate matters of mutual interest. I even attended a couple of meetings by invitation. Bit of a toothless wonder that couldn't agree what to have for lunch, but BPIA or not, all the leading industry bods know eachother very well and speak/meet on a regular basis. This is surely something they could agree and act on collectively.

There is also collusion from the manufacturers themselves, back in Japan, that doesn't help. They could stop it if they were minded, just by checking the serial numbers and tracing the original supplier, but they don't seem to care so long as they can shift cameras out of the door.

Example: I was involved in a huge rumpus in the 90s in the motorcycle market when you could save thousands by buying a bike imported from Holland or Ireland. Frankly the UK importers were taking the pee, but when you see dozens of bikes in a Dutch warehouse, all with mph speedos and headlights dipping to the left (exclusive to UK market) then you wonder exactly where the manufacturers thought they were actually destined for.

Warranty is another thing. I understand why UK importers are reluctant to do work on stuff they've had no cut on, but that's not really the buyers' fault. They've bought and paid for a product, and if it's faulty then it should be fixed for free, by the most convenient method. All the UK distributor should have to do is recharge the parent company.

BTW Jonathan, I'm sure most of this trade is entirely legal. There is a circuitous supply route that renders goods not liable for VAT and duty. Basically the same kind of fiddle as Starbucks etc use for tax avoidance. Maybe that's tied up with EU laws etc so not such a simple matter to sort out, but this problem is not restricted to just the UK.

I'm not taking a moral stance on this, though there is that aspect. I've bought imported stuff myself, but it's killing UK retail, camera shops are closing and people losing jobs. We see a quick saving, but the knock-on effects are very costly in other ways.

PS Maybe we could learn something from Peru

 

[Rebel t3i]

I don't see what the big issue is if you feel it is wrong clicking the buy button on foreign companies sites click the button on jessops site or go into jessops
When most people click the buy button they have no idea that duty / vat may not be paid reading certain sites it implies that they are
The buyer is unaware and has not asked for the description of goods to be falsely declared
panamoz site does not imply it is paid just that the amount you pay is all you pay and if you are charged any extra they will refund you
Seems to be another panamoz witch hunt to me
I doubt the IRS has the man power or inclination to pursue MR and Mrs Joe average
Any business in particular a pro tog imo should not be buying from these sources particularly if they are a proper tog that is vat registered

 

[JonathanRyan]

When most people click the buy button they have no idea that duty / vat may not be paid reading certain sites it implies that they are

So when somebody asks what the drawbacks are of buying from Panamoz it seems reasonable to explain it to them.

Interesting point about how pro photographers "ought" to buy from UK sources. That would of course put the weekend warriors at a competitive advantage

 

[rpsmith79]

Buying from Panamoz means I can just about afford a 5D Mk III if I sell all my used photo gear, with not a grey import amongst it! But I won't be able to say that about any photo gear I'll be selling in the future. Sorry, but I'm voting with my wallet, I'm too poor to do otherwise!

I'll be emailing Panamoz shortly....

Wow, that is a statement and a half

Too poor, when you are spending £1800 on a camera body

 

[Rebel t3i]

as a business you should now the tax laws Mr and Mrs Joe public who work at tesco aren't expected to know and don't have an accountant

 

[JonathanRyan]

Mr and Mrs Joe public who work at tesco aren't expected to know

In fact they are.

It may be unfair, but the law assumes you know all about it.

 

[Rebel t3i]

joe public is highly unlikely to come to the attention of the IRS and vat man a proper business is

 

[HoppyUK]

I don't see what the big issue is if you feel it is wrong clicking the buy button on foreign companies sites click the button on jessops site or go into jessops
When most people click the buy button they have no idea that duty / vat may not be paid reading certain sites it implies that they are
The buyer is unaware and has not asked for the description of goods to be falsely declared
panamoz site does not imply it is paid just that the amount you pay is all you pay and if you are charged any extra they will refund you
Seems to be another panamoz witch hunt to me
I doubt the IRS has the man power or inclination to pursue MR and Mrs Joe average
Any business in particular a pro tog imo should not be buying from these sources particularly if they are a proper tog that is vat registered

It's certainly true that if you're a professional, then registering for VAT is easy and you can claim 20% back on everything you buy for the business. You're a mug if you don't.

joe public is highly unlikely to come to the attention of the IRS and vat man a proper business is

I agree IRS has limited resources, but this VAT-dodging trade is so big now they could easily gear up for it and make a fat return for the tax coffers. It's all about money and investment/return at the end of the day of course, and probably best overlooked when it's small scale and relatively insignificant. But now it's not, and it's growing fast - nobody can overlook a 20-40% saving on expensive purchases.

 

[modchild]

I've bought from Panamoz and have found them to be excellent. Goods are dispatched and delivered in good time and the service is fantastic.

On the Panamoz website, in their FAQ's they state "The price you pay Panamoz do not include VAT and import duty. Your government may charge you import tax and duty. We will reimburse you in full." So you have no need to worry about any extra charge anyway, but by that statement I take it they are not actively trying to evade any taxes and import duty as some people are implying. I have received packages that have had a correct description on them ie. Camera Accessory on more than one delivery. As they say 'the price you see is what you pay' and also state that any VAT and import duty will be paid (or refunded) by them, if customs have done their job properly.

Also, with regards to warranty issues of 'grey market' items. I had to return an 11 month old Sigma lens to them recently as it had developed a fault. I emailed them and was given a London address to return the lens to. After only 11 days from the first time I contacted them I received a brand new lens with another years warranty. That's faster than a hell of a lot of warranty claims you read about on here that are dealt with in the UK.

I fully intend to use Panamoz again when buying any more new gear for as long as they are able to provide high quality items at very good prices and give the same quality of service they have in the past.

I have also bought items from Hdew Cameras in the UK and received a similar level of service and quality items and I frequently have and will continue to recommend both of these vendors to anyone.

 

[fracster]

On the Panamoz website, in their FAQ's they state "The price you pay Panamoz do not include VAT and import duty. Your government may charge you import tax and duty. We will reimburse you in full." So you have no need to worry about any extra charge anyway, but by that statement I take it they are not actively trying to evade any taxes and import duty as some people are implying.

Do they state on the packaging the true contents, or do they attempt to deceive as to what the actual contents are?

If they state that the box contains a 5D MK111 for example, then I agree with you, but i`m under the impression that they state low value goods rather than the true contents, happy to be proved wrong though.

 

[rpsmith79]

On the Panamoz website, in their FAQ's they state "The price you pay Panamoz do not include VAT and import duty. Your government may charge you import tax and duty. We will reimburse you in full." So you have no need to worry about any extra charge anyway, but by that statement I take it they are not actively trying to evade any taxes and import duty as some people are implying.

To me, that reads that they are fully aware they are trying to evade VAT and Import duties by not paying them themselves in the first place

I'm sure they would either stop trading, or at the very least up their prices if every single one of their parcels was stopped at Customs and had VAT and Import duties added to it and then charged back to Panamoz

 

[maninsuitcase]

On thing people miss is it's sometimes cheaper to buy UK also.

In the past I've been pricing up stuff or casually browsing and once you venture out of the "middle ground" stuff is often cheaper from a UK dealer. I assume this is down to margins on cheaper stuff and insurance costs on the higher end stuff.

What I don't get is how a HK dealer can sell a lens (Nikon 300mm f4 is the one I looked at) for only 2/3rds of what a competitive UK dealer can. Yes there's wage differences but the margin on a lens bought from the same place (Nikon factory) can only be so much. So either the HK dealers are making next to nothing and selling a lot or the wholesale price is jacked up for the UK market.

 

[Rebel t3i]

It's certainly true that if you're a professional, then registering for VAT is easy and you can claim 20% back on everything you buy for the business. You're a mug if you don't.



I agree IRS has limited resources, but this VAT-dodging trade is so big now they could easily gear up for it and make a fat return for the tax coffers. It's all about money and investment/return at the end of the day of course, and probably best overlooked when it's small scale and relatively insignificant. But now it's not, and it's growing fast - nobody can overlook a 20-40% saving on expensive purchases.

They have this covered for free by using the shipping companies as free tax collectors
What ever system they try to put in place is unpoliceable IMO
The sheer quantities of goods that the uk imports makes this impossible
They struggle to find 200 people in a container how are they going to find your tiny camera in a box

 

[graphilly]

To me, that reads that they are fully aware they are trying to evade VAT and Import duties by not paying them themselves in the first place

I'm sure they would either stop trading, or at the very least up their prices if every single one of their parcels was stopped at Customs and had VAT and Import duties added to it and then charged back to Panamoz

I believe it is the purchaser that is liable for the duty and tax.

 

[JonathanRyan]

It's certainly true that if you're a professional, then registering for VAT is easy and you can claim 20% back on everything you buy for the business. You're a mug if you don't.

It's way off topic and I'd decided I'd said enough on this thread but I can't leave that one sitting there.....

Anybody selling photography mainly to individuals (rather than vat registered entities) is IMO an idiot if they register for VAT one second before they have to.

Sure I could claim vat back on kit but I'd also need to charge it on sales. And if my kit costs more than the value of my sales then I have some issues....

Every year I keep a close eye on turnover and turn down / defer work that would push me over the limit. It's just not worth it.

 

[graphilly]

Sod it. I'm sending this thread to HMRC to see if they can clarify things for us Delete your sigs if you don't want to be contacted

 

[HoppyUK]

On thing people miss is it's sometimes cheaper to buy UK also.

In the past I've been pricing up stuff or casually browsing and once you venture out of the "middle ground" stuff is often cheaper from a UK dealer. I assume this is down to margins on cheaper stuff and insurance costs on the higher end stuff.

What I don't get is how a HK dealer can sell a lens (Nikon 300mm f4 is the one I looked at) for only 2/3rds of what a competitive UK dealer can. Yes there's wage differences but the margin on a lens bought from the same place (Nikon factory) can only be so much. So either the HK dealers are making next to nothing and selling a lot or the wholesale price is jacked up for the UK market.

Non-payment of UK duty (6-7% I think, payable on lenses but not cameras) plus VAT pretty much accounts for the difference.

It's way off topic and I'd decided I'd said enough on this thread but I can't leave that one sitting there.....

Anybody selling photography mainly to individuals (rather than vat registered entities) is IMO an idiot if they register for VAT one second before they have to.

Sure I could claim vat back on kit but I'd also need to charge it on sales. And if my kit costs more than the value of my sales then I have some issues....

Every year I keep a close eye on turnover and turn down / defer work that would push me over the limit. It's just not worth it.

Good point!

 

[rpsmith79]

I believe it is the purchaser that is liable for the duty and tax.

But i'm 100% sure that if every purchaser were to inform Customs that they have not correctly charged for their parcel, and that charge was passed back onto Panamoz every single time, it wouldn't be long till they shut up shop or increased their prices

They are basically playing on the fact that 99% of the parcels get through customs unchecked and uncharged, hence why their prices are so low

Unfortunately UK shops can't exploit this same loophole, hence why they are struggling trying to keep competitive

 

[graphilly]

But i'm 100% sure that if every purchaser were to inform Customs that they have not correctly charged for their parcel, and that charge was passed back onto Panamoz every single time, it wouldn't be long till they shut up shop or increased their prices

They are basically playing on the fact that 99% of the parcels get through customs unchecked and uncharged, hence why their prices are so low

Unfortunately UK shops can't exploit this same loophole, hence why they are struggling trying to keep competitive

Edit: I understand what you are saying here but my original comment was on the part in your post about evading duty and tax.

 

[rpsmith79]

But as I understand it, they are not importing it, you are, so you are responsible for paying.

I would say their duty is to correctly label and value the goods for shipping.

The shipper is then the one that is charged to collect the duty and tax off of you on delivery.

That is assuming they make it clear they are sending the goods from a different country

I haven't studied their website closely, but if the average punter came across a website, written in English and displaying all prices in £'s, with a UK phone number

If i didn't know any better i would assume they were a UK based company

 

[graphilly]

That is assuming they make it clear they are sending the goods from a different country

I haven't studied their website closely, but if the average punter came across a website, written in English and displaying all prices in £'s, with a UK phone number

If i didn't know any better i would assume they were a UK based company

Again I understand what you say re the 'UK shop front look' but in the eyes of the law, the onus is on the purchaser.

Once you get the shipping tracking number may be the first point that someone sees that it is coming in from Hong Kong.

Ignorance is no defence.

 

[ajax_andy]

Sod it. I'm sending this thread to HMRC to see if they can clarify things for us Delete your sigs if you don't want to be contacted

How to make yourself the most unpopular person on a forum in one post... a new tutorial available in shops for xmas written by Graphilly.

Please note price includes VAT

:bonk:

 

[graphilly]

How to make yourself the most unpopular person on a forum in one post... a new tutorial available in shops for xmas written by Graphilly.

Please note price includes VAT

:bonk:

Yes well it's nearly Christmas and I hate Christmas

 

[maninsuitcase]

Once you get the shipping tracking number may be the first point that someone sees that it is coming in from Hong Kong.

I've bought stuff from a genuine UK store (Apples web store) that came direct from china. The goods source isn't a good indicator of the companies location.

 

[graphilly]

I've bought stuff from a genuine UK store (Apples web store) that came direct from china. The goods source isn't a good indicator of the companies location.

I know, I wasn't saying that it was.

 

[Chris Y]

We are only victims of our nationality. Have you seen the size of the tax refund ques at terminal 3 lately???

I pay my taxes and plenty of them which is a another story...

I bought my 5DIII at Profoto at Singapore Airport in April, at the time when there were none in the UK and saved 1/3 off of the UKRRP. = No brainer..

I have purchased a lot via HDEW too. I am all for saving £ and personally, if it were a boiler/washing machine or an item of camera gear, i want the best deal.

The End..

 

[ernesto]

Taxes have to be paid for the country to run. I think the issue lies from mistrust in the government on where and how the money is used (and lack of any better alternative governments as they are pretty much the same)
Other countries have higher taxes and are happy to pay them (i.e. Scandinavia) as they feel they are being used well (schooling, elderley care etc,.)

It is not all about stuff being cheaper elsewhere, it is way more complicated than that.

 

[maninsuitcase]

Taxes have to be paid for the country to run. I think the issue lies from mistrust in the government on where and how the money is used (and lack of any better alternative governments as they are pretty much the same)
Other countries have higher taxes and are happy to pay them (i.e. Scandinavia) as they feel they are being used well (schooling, elderley care etc,.)

It is not all about stuff being cheaper elsewhere, it is way more complicated than that.

There's a lot I agree with there. If you think a product is 30% more for a good reason you pay it.

 

[Dayve]

You need to be at home when UPS deliver, or you may find it left on your doorstep

Me too! DHL just left my new 5D Mk3 on my doorstep, despite my having to sign for it!! Now, the question is, would DigitalRev bother to make a claim against DHL if my camera went missing? They are based in Hong Kong, have my maney and I can't go and bang on their door, so the question is, what's the after-sales / customer care of these cheaper suppliers like, if things goe wrong?

 

[ernesto]

I dread it when I see UPS as the courier. They have never done their job properly in all three times I have had misfortune to experience them.

The last time was a £500 item that was left with 'John'. Not knowing any Johns I called UPS who told me it must be with nearest neighbour. I then walked round to all 6 of the nearest houses with no joy (and no John). Called them back again to speak to manager about their process and she went away to find and and called back an hour later to tell me it hadn't actually been left with anyone at all and was taken back.

Not looking forward to this week, just bought my son a new guitar and guess who teh courier is...

 

[ukaskew]

I'm amazed WEX, Jessops etc haven't been pressuring HMRC over this as it's massively unfair (that's being kind), whichever way you look at it, a £1500 camera is not a 'toy sample'.

This isn't using a legal tax loophole like Starbucks, Jimmy Carr etc, they are actively avoiding taxes by 'incorrectly' labelling parcels. It's probably why UPS are happy to leave it on your doorstep, they have no idea such a high value object is in the parcel (this would also explain why they package things so well, if something gets damaged in transit I would hazard a guess that the items aren't insured to anything like the appropriate value).

I order a couple of t-shirts from the US and they come with a bill from HMRC, in fact I've used probably in the region of 50 foreign suppliers and not one has ever understated the value of the goods.

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm amazed WEX, Jessops etc haven't been pressuring HMRC over this as it's massively unfair (that's being kind), whichever way you look at it, a £1500 camera is not a 'toy sample'.

This isn't using a legal tax loophole like Starbucks, Jimmy Carr etc, they are actively avoiding taxes by 'incorrectly' labelling parcels. It's probably why UPS are happy to leave it on your doorstep, they have no idea such a high value object is in the parcel (this would also explain why they package things so well, if something gets damaged in transit I would hazard a guess that the items aren't insured to anything like the appropriate value).

I order a couple of t-shirts from the US and they come with a bill from HMRC, in fact I've used probably in the region of 50 foreign suppliers and not one has ever understated the value of the goods.

Most of the current trade is perfectly legal, a loophole that avoids goods being liable for VAT. This is quite new, or at least has grown very substantially in the last couple of years, and is the main problem IMHO.

The other stuff, labelling goods as toys or gifts or trade samples or whatever and understaing the value in a deliberate attempt to avoid tax, has been going on forever, long before the internet. It has always been illegal.

 

[graphilly]

I dread it when I see UPS as the courier. They have never done their job properly in all three times I have had misfortune to experience them.

The last time was a £500 item that was left with 'John'. Not knowing any Johns I called UPS who told me it must be with nearest neighbour. I then walked round to all 6 of the nearest houses with no joy (and no John). Called them back again to speak to manager about their process and she went away to find and and called back an hour later to tell me it hadn't actually been left with anyone at all and was taken back.

Not looking forward to this week, just bought my son a new guitar and guess who teh courier is...

I've has similar with Parcel Force this week.

I had 2 recorded deliveries, the first, I heard a knock at the door. I went to answer, opened the inside door to see the delivery guy getting back in his van, the parcel was left lying against the door.

The second, I was out and came back to find the parcel tucked in behind a plant at the front door.

No cards left through the letterbox for any of these and when I checked online for the proof of delivery I discovered that someone had signed for it using my name.