Budget medium format for landscaper

[gad-westy]

Having had a Mamiya 645 1000s in the past, I find myself craving another medium format camera, probably exclusively for landscapes but with a very meagre budget of around £100 and I'd like to use 120 roll film as I still have some left over. I was quite happy with the Mamiya 645 and would buy one again if one came up at a bargain price. 6 x 6 would be nice though. Have also looked at Bronica and Pentax bug I think I'll struggle to get anything like that under budget. Anything else I should be looking at? Had considered building a camera by buying individual parts maybe...

 

[wickerman]

With a budget of around £100 you could perhaps look at a Yashica tlr, or maybe a Pentacon Six.

I have never owned a Yashica but I expect someone who has will be along soon and can give you advice on the different models.

I have a Pentacon Six, it's a heavy beast but does have the advantage of interchangable lenses so as your budget allows you can add lenses to your colection.

 

[Jao]

Lubitel or Seagull 120 TLR's might be a budget option, also I agree with David the Yashica TLRs are nice. But they seem to be starting to go for a premium these days. Kiev TLR or SLRs might also be another option if you can get a good example.

 

[trevorbray]

YashMat is great and within budget. What about a folder. I've got a nice Ensign Selfix 6x9 that I picked up around £50. Huge negs, smashing quality. Only ever used it on a tripod so far. Super for Landscape though.

 

[freecom2]

Most TLRs are going to be a huge pain for using filters - a lot of them use bayonet mounts for their filters, and any filter is going to block the viewing lens (as well as issues with placement). Additionally, aside from the Mamiya system and the rare Tele/Wide Rolleis (both of which are significantly out of your budget), they all have standard lenses - which might not be useful for landscape work.

 

[TheTimeChamber]

Most TLRs are going to be a huge pain for using filters - a lot of them use bayonet mounts for their filters, and any filter is going to block the viewing lens (as well as issues with placement). Additionally, aside from the Mamiya system and the rare Tele/Wide Rolleis (both of which are significantly out of your budget), they all have standard lenses - which might not be useful for landscape work.

If it produces a 6x6 neg, you can flip the tlr on its side. A b****r to compose though as it is weirdly reversed (more than normal)

 

[StephenM]

Most TLRs are going to be a huge pain for using filters - a lot of them use bayonet mounts for their filters, and any filter is going to block the viewing lens (as well as issues with placement). Additionally, aside from the Mamiya system and the rare Tele/Wide Rolleis (both of which are significantly out of your budget), they all have standard lenses - which might not be useful for landscape work.

There's no problem at all with screw in filters. For black and white work, a TLR is better than an SLR in that respect because fitting a red filter doesn't make you see red through the viewfinder. My C330 takes filters just slightly smaller than the 49mm size of the OM system; and I have a complete (for my purposes) set of screw in filters in 49mm size which I can use with a stepping ring.

There's only a problem with placement if you want to use graduated filters; and in over 50 years of photography I've never felt any need to use one. OK, I have a tobacco graduated one from the 1970s; but everyone used one of them in those days.

An awful lot of landscape photography has been done with the standard lens, and to all intents and purposes it's the only lens I use. The problem has only really arisen (I think) because of the relatively modern line of reasoning that runs thus:

1. You must have a sense of depth in a landscape photograph (which isn't actually true).

2. You achieve a sense of depth by incorporating a large foreground object (which isn't the only way of indicating depth).

3. Because you've had to move in really really close to a big rock, you need a wide angle lens to show any of the scenery that you wanted to photograph in the first place (and, as a by product render it vanishingly small in the frame).

Therefore: you must use a wide angle lens for landscape photography.

If you "see" landscapes this way, then you do. Personally, I don't and prefer the perspective I get from a standard lens. In the last 10 years or so, I think I've used a shorter than standard focal length twice, and a longer than standard 4 times. SO it's a mtter of personal taste and how you express yourself.

 

[joxby]

Exclusively landscapes ?

gotta be 645 or 6x9 really, and a WA ideally

you can shoot nice scapes @ 6x6 but scape lends itself to oblong tbh.

Stitch 2 6x6's together for 6x12

you could crop 6x6 but that's a waste of film and a 50 on any 6x6 camera will stretch the budget.

can't get a lot for £100, the way I see it is you either go cheap with WA lomo or pinhole and accept the image won't be pin sharp edge to edge.
or look for a 6x9 folder with the shortest lens you can find, which will probably be 90 :/

sticking with 6x9 and wa for a moment, maybe you could get lucky with a Mamiya press with a 6x9 back & 75..:shrug:

the fact that a Mamiya press for a 120 scape is considered a possibility, just goes to show how desperately few options are available for £100 without compromises.

 

[joxby]

An awful lot of landscape photography has been done with the standard lens, and to all intents and purposes it's the only lens I use. The problem has only really arisen (I think) because of the relatively modern line of reasoning that runs thus:

1. You must have a sense of depth in a landscape photograph (which isn't actually true).

2. You achieve a sense of depth by incorporating a large foreground object (which isn't the only way of indicating depth).

3. Because you've had to move in really really close to a big rock, you need a wide angle lens to show any of the scenery that you wanted to photograph in the first place (and, as a by product render it vanishingly small in the frame).

Therefore: you must use a wide angle lens for landscape photography.

I've got a lot of time for this analogy, I just think it maybe casts the accusing eye towards the silly wides of 35mm, and not so much 120.
A 50 on 6x6 is close to 37mm on 35mm, so its a wide but not so wide it distorts everything all to hell and back, but I do agree many a good scape is shot with a standard lens.
I think the term WA is a bit too broad, after all a 74mm lens on 6x6 could be described as a wide angle.

 

[gad-westy]

Thanks for all the great info so far. Must admit I don't think TLR's are going to be my thing having read up a little about them. Interesting that the folding camera idea has come up. I must admit these were off my radar a little until earlier this week. The Ensign suggestion is duly noted though the Voigtlander Bessa has also caught my eye. Anybody able to give a quick 101 summary of what I'd be getting into with something like this?

 

[Jao]

Graham, review of a Zeiss Nettar 120 Folder below, might give you an outline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmxtqdzBHm4

 

[freecom2]

There's no problem at all with screw in filters. For black and white work, a TLR is better than an SLR in that respect because fitting a red filter doesn't make you see red through the viewfinder. My C330 takes filters just slightly smaller than the 49mm size of the OM system; and I have a complete (for my purposes) set of screw in filters in 49mm size which I can use with a stepping ring.

There's only a problem with placement if you want to use graduated filters; and in over 50 years of photography I've never felt any need to use one. OK, I have a tobacco graduated one from the 1970s; but everyone used one of them in those days.

I was pretty much only thinking about graduated filters - slot in grads and NDs seem to be the most popular landscape photography tools at the moment.

The Mamiya's are rather unrepresentative of the TLR fraternity - Bay 1 is significantly smaller than 49mm, and even my Bay 2 Rollei is only ~39mm.

I'm a big, big fan of TLRs - I think they are one of the most charming film cameras to use and own, and I've bored F&C regulars on the subject countless times - but I genuinely think an SLR is often better for landscapes.

 

[simonblue]

I did see an Kiev the other day,i think it came with 3 lens inc a wide angle i think it was about the £100 mark

 

[retrogamer1990]

Pentacon Six.

No. Don't do it. They're all broken somehow.

Every.

Last.

One.

 

[TheTimeChamber]

I was pretty much only thinking about graduated filters - slot in grads and NDs seem to be the most popular landscape photography tools at the moment.

The Mamiya's are rather unrepresentative of the TLR fraternity - Bay 1 is significantly smaller than 49mm, and even my Bay 2 Rollei is only ~39mm.

I'm a big, big fan of TLRs - I think they are one of the most charming film cameras to use and own, and I've bored F&C regulars on the subject countless times - but I genuinely think an SLR is often better for landscapes.

I live my tlr, but you are right, it isn't suited to landscapes. But I want to see what velvia is like on MF, I suspect I might wet myself at the results lil

 

[freecom2]

No. Don't do it. They're all broken somehow.

Every.

Last.

One.

All the Pentacon/Kiev recommendations - sure, some may come in under £100 (although most outfits won't), but the cost of possible future repairs and headaches mean that, IMO, it's not a good way to do this.

Personally, I'd buy an ETRS and one of the wider lenses - that's pretty easy to do with £200, and gives you a easy, small and relatively lightweight MF SLR landscape kit.

I live my tlr, but you are right, it isn't suited to landscapes. But I want to see what velvia is like on MF, I suspect I might wet myself at the results lil

Medium format slide is a real treat - E6 is only getting closer to extinction (sadly), so go for it!

 

[joxby]

I just blew 2 rolls of velvia 100f on some night shots of Torquay.

2 flippin rolls !

got it completely wrong......I was suicidal for an hour or so...:shake:


I blame that wheel

 

[joxby]

No. Don't do it. They're all broken somehow.

Every.

Last.

One.

There's always Arax

http://araxfoto.com/cameras/



.

 

[wickerman]

All the Pentacon/Kiev recommendations - sure, some may come in under £100 (although most outfits won't), but the cost of possible future repairs and headaches mean that, IMO, it's not a good way to do this.

Personally, I'd buy an ETRS and one of the wider lenses - that's pretty easy to do with £200, and gives you a easy, small and relatively lightweight MF SLR landscape kit.



Medium format slide is a real treat - E6 is only getting closer to extinction (sadly), so go for it!

The Bronica ETRS system is streets ahead of the Pentacon Six but the budget is £100 not £200.

 

[freecom2]

The Bronica ETRS system is streets ahead of the Pentacon Six but the budget is £100 not £200.

Yup, taken into account. What I was saying was realistically a lot of the £100 recommendations are going to need extra costly repairs on top (legendary unreliability!) - so why not spend 180-200 on a Bronica system, and get it right from the start.

 

[wickerman]

Yup, taken into account. What I was saying was realistically a lot of the £100 recommendations are going to need extra costly repairs on top (legendary unreliability!) - so why not spend 180-200 on a Bronica system, and get it right from the start.

Agreed, if the budget can be stretched to say £200 a Bronica system would be a good choice.

The Bronica Etrsi was actually my first medium format camera so I have a soft spot for it. I think you are unlikely to get a Bronica Etrs system with WA lens for £200 but one with the standard 75mm lens should be achievable. As mentioned in the posts above, many excellent landscape pictures have been taken with a standard lens.

 

[Cuchulainn]

Likewise, a budget of £200 would also put a Pentax 645 system on the table. I really like mine (though I was lucky and got the n body for a song on eBay).

 

[freecom2]

Pentax 645, Mamiya 645, Bronica ETRS systems - all reachable within £200, and plenty of good examples which will be trouble-free. Even the thought of a Kiev/Pentacon 6 makes me shudder...

Most medium format kit holds its value, so realistically you could sell it after you used it and recoup that larger budget.

 

[gad-westy]

Pentax 645, Mamiya 645, Bronica ETRS systems - all reachable within £200, and plenty of good examples which will be trouble-free. Even the thought of a Kiev/Pentacon 6 makes me shudder...

Most medium format kit holds its value, so realistically you could sell it after you used it and recoup that larger budget.

I'm feeling inclined to save a little longer rather than scraping the barrel. Is there much to separate the three mentioned? I liked my mamiya but have no particular allegiance.

 

[freecom2]

I'm feeling inclined to save a little longer rather than scraping the barrel. Is there much to separate the three mentioned? I liked my mamiya but have no particular allegiance.

There are lots of individual model differences (especially with the Pentax system), but essentially they are all modular (to some extent) 6x4.5 SLRs.

The only thing that comes to mind is a viewfinder - Bronica ETRS models tend to come with WLFs on the used market (but there are a variety of prisms available), the Pentax 645 has no WLF option. Additionally, I have no numbers to back this up, but there tends to be Bronica > Mamiya > Pentax gear on the market, in that order. Don't see Pentax 645 gear too much (on dealer and private sites). Not sure if that's reflective of the system, or just their popularity when new.

 

[joxby]

A lot more options and pretty much a new thread altogether with a budget of £200.

For a 200quid landscaper, you could do a lot worse than the 645 RF in the classifieds.

RF's > umpteen bags of *******s



.

 

[gad-westy]

A lot more options and pretty much a new thread altogether with a budget of £200.

For a 200quid landscaper, you could do a lot worse than the 645 RF in the classifieds.

RF's > umpteen bags of *******s



.

Yep, appreciate the thread changes a little! I need to wait though if I'm going to up the budget so unfortunately the range finder in the classifieds isn't an option.

I am keeping my eye on ebay for a bargain though.

 

[gad-westy]

There are lots of individual model differences (especially with the Pentax system), but essentially they are all modular (to some extent) 6x4.5 SLRs.

The only thing that comes to mind is a viewfinder - Bronica ETRS models tend to come with WLFs on the used market (but there are a variety of prisms available), the Pentax 645 has no WLF option. Additionally, I have no numbers to back this up, but there tends to be Bronica > Mamiya > Pentax gear on the market, in that order. Don't see Pentax 645 gear too much (on dealer and private sites). Not sure if that's reflective of the system, or just their popularity when new.

Cheers. Bronica seem easy to get parts for, certainly easier than the other two. I hear good things about the Pentax but the lack of availability of items puts me off a little.

 

[Mr Bump]

Ive got a nice Zeiss Ikonta M folder MF takes lovely piccies.

under budget

 

[Cuchulainn]

Cheers. Bronica seem easy to get parts for, certainly easier than the other two. I hear good things about the Pentax but the lack of availability of items puts me off a little.

The lack of availability isn't so bad - there's only so much kit you'd want to buy Seriously though, it comes up often enough, that if you were happy to spread your purchases over a month, then you should be able to pick up some stuff at good prices. The cost of lenses is coming down again too - they were dirt cheap a couple of years ago, then when Pentax released the digital 645 they went up in price again. With no news of a replacement digital 645, there's been a noticeable drop in price again.

The 45mm, 55mm and 75mm lenses would all be good options for landscape (they are roughly equivalent to the field of view of 28mm, 35mm and 50mm lenses in 35mm format). I really like my 45mm, but I think the 55mm I had was a bit sharper. I've also a 150mm lens which is lovely for portraits.

 

[Andysnap]

For a ton I'd be looking at the Ross Ensigns. I've had a 16-20 and a 12-20 and they were both simple but fabulous and the build quality was superb.

I only sold the 12-20 because being colour-blind meant I could not see when I'd wound on to the next number because of the red window.

Andy

 

[steveo_mcg]

I'd quite like another folder, one that performs slightly better wide open and has more reliable slow shutter speeds than my 524 but I can't bring my self to spend the many hundreds on a Super Ikonta. However for £50 its pin sharp when stepped down which wouldn't be a problem atop a tripod in the field.

 

[Mr Bump]

I'd quite like another folder, one that performs slightly better wide open and has more reliable slow shutter speeds than my 524 but I can't bring my self to spend the many hundreds on a Super Ikonta. However for £50 its pin sharp when stepped down which wouldn't be a problem atop a tripod in the field.

I agree the Zeiss Ikonta M which I bought off a member here is very very good but its only 6x6 so maybe that would not be suitable.

 

[gad-westy]

Thought I'd update this thread. We have a result and I managed to stay well within my £100 budget.


GD1_2696 by G.A.D, on Flickr

Okay, I cheated. This is my father's camera. He never uses it and has given it to me on a long term loan. I'm over the moon.

I do need to get some new batteries for it. And I need to choose some film, maybe Kodak Ektar. I also only have an 80mm lens to play with but I'm very happy to work around that for now.

 

[excalibur2]

Congrats.......Well it wont work without a 6v battery, although you have an emergency speed of a ridiculous 1/500 sec

 

[gad-westy]

It's the 'i' model so I think I need four little watch style batteries for anything to work at all.

 

[Steve Smith]

Congrats.......Well it wont work without a 6v battery, although you have an emergency speed of a ridiculous 1/500 sec

Agreed. 1/125 would be better but I suppose it's easier to let the shutter run at full speed when there's no battery power to delay its closing.


Steve.

 

[wickerman]

It's the 'i' model so I think I need four little watch style batteries for anything to work at all.

Nice camera, you will need 4x LR44 batteries for it to work at anything other than 1/500s.

 

[gad-westy]

Nice camera, you will need 4x LR44 batteries for it to work at anything other than 1/500s.

Cheers. Searching for some now. Would I be right in saying that I'll need some film in to fire the shutter at all? I can't cock the shutter at the moment with no film in and so the the shutter button does nothing.

 

[skysh4rk]

Thought I'd update this thread. We have a result and I managed to stay well within my £100 budget.

Okay, I cheated. This is my father's camera. He never uses it and has given it to me on a long term loan. I'm over the moon.

I do need to get some new batteries for it. And I need to choose some film, maybe Kodak Ektar. I also only have an 80mm lens to play with but I'm very happy to work around that for now.

The Bronica SQ-AI is very nice and only having the 80mm lens isn't really a limitation; it's all I've been using for months and should fare you well.

Nice camera, you will need 4x LR44 batteries for it to work at anything other than 1/500s.

I'm pretty sure that the SQ-AI won't work at all without batteries. Only the previous models to 1/500, I believe.

Cheers. Searching for some now. Would I be right in saying that I'll need some film in to fire the shutter at all? I can't cock the shutter at the moment with no film in and so the the shutter button does nothing.

Assuming the SQ-AI works like the SQ-A, just put it into multi-exposure mode to dry fire the shutter without film.