Breastfeeding Debate

[POAH]

No it doesnt need addressing. Its very disrespectful to other people to start feeding in a cafe or such. Ive nothing against the activity but I do not want to be forced to have it done infront of me. I dont thing it has becpme more acceptable I just think now the world has gone pc mad people are scared to speak up n say they dont wana see it.

Like the post above addresses the gay couple I have gay friends and I dont have an issue with it. What I do have an issue with is unnecessary desplays of affection to try and prove a point to society. A straight couple wouldnt do that.

There are many places with baby changing or feeding rooms.

What is the hardship of using those?

you've still not answered why is it so offensive to you.

you are not forced into watching it - I don't stare at mothers who breast feed in public. Fail to see how its disrespectful :shrug:

straight couples hold hands in public, they kiss in public, they hug in public, the same way that gay couples do - that's not what I would say is an unnecessary display.

 

[dod]

I'm participating in a local art exhibition with the aim being to normalise breastfeeding within the area, as the area is a highly formula feeding area. The project involves real mothers and children and is supposed to avoid glamorising breastfeeding.

There's your problem, a poorly though out brief.

You want to normalise breast feeding but not make it glamorous? I'd say you've achieved the goal.

The clincher for me though was the implication of adding in a horse and a dog, a pug at that. That should encourage young mums everywhere to ditch the bottle.

 

[barratt1988]

you've still not answered why is it so offensive to you.

you are not forced into watching it - I don't stare at mothers who breast feed in public. Fail to see how its disrespectful :shrug:

straight couples hold hands in public, they kiss in public, they hug in public, the same way that gay couples do - that's not what I would say is an unnecessary display.

Its disrespectful as you are forcing it upon people. Making the situation awkward. Forcing thwm to try and look away and personally putting me off what ever im eating. And they arent the displays I was thinking off. Its when they go over the top. Just as they have to act uber gay.. your into men.. so what no need to make every person you ever clap eyes on aware of this.

If I had my choice each town would have more facilities for feeding and it would be done in there. Or at very least the mothers would use one of those feeding covers

 

[POAH]

Its disrespectful as you are forcing it upon people. Making the situation awkward. Forcing thwm to try and look away and personally putting me off what ever im eating. And they arent the displays I was thinking off. Its when they go over the top. Just as they have to act uber gay.. your into men.. so what no need to make every person you ever clap eyes on aware of this.

If I had my choice each town would have more facilities for feeding and it would be done in there. Or at very least the mothers would use one of those feeding covers

mums should not have to go into hiding to feed their babies - why should they just because a small group of society think its rude for some bizarre reason.

A baby feeding puts you off your food - Do you have kids of your own? To suggest you are being forced to look away means you are wanting to look but can't which seems a bit pervy. Personally I don't look at other people when I'm out for dinner since I'm there to enjoy the company of the people I am with not the people at the next table.

I eat curry with my fingers, bet that would put you off your dinner :|

 

[dan_yorkshire]

Its disrespectful as you are forcing it upon people. Making the situation awkward. Forcing thwm to try and look away and personally putting me off what ever im eating. And they arent the displays I was thinking off. Its when they go over the top. Just as they have to act uber gay.. your into men.. so what no need to make every person you ever clap eyes on aware of this. If I had my choice each town would have more facilities for feeding and it would be done in there. Or at very least the mothers would use one of those feeding covers

If there was more people like you the streets would be very empty! All hiding behind a curtain scared to leave home.

There's more flesh on show in the town centre on a Saturday night than a quiet corner in Starbucks with a mum doing the most natural of things.

 

[barratt1988]

mums should not have to go into hiding to feed their babies - why should they just because a small group of society think its rude for some bizarre reason.

A baby feeding puts you off your food - Do you have kids of your own? To suggest you are being forced to look away means you are wanting to look but can't which seems a bit pervy. Personally I don't look at other people when I'm out for dinner since I'm there to enjoy the company of the people I am with not the people at the next table.

I eat curry with my fingers, bet that would put you off your dinner :|

Haha small group I dont thing so. Have your opinion, thars mine now deal with it.

And now your calling me a perv? Seems like someone is getting very defensive? You cant back your argument up by calling someone a perv.

 

[barratt1988]

If there was more people like you the streets would be very empty! All hiding behind a curtain scared to leave home.

And as for this... well its just bloody stupid. It doesnt warrent a real reply to be honest.

 

[dan_yorkshire]

And as for this... well its just bloody stupid. It doesnt warrent a real reply to be honest.

This whole subject didn't bother me until 16 months ago when my daughter was born.

My wife often fed our daughter when out and about and some of the looks we got were shocking, even using a scarf and finding as quiet a spot as possible.

Doing it on the 15:10 out of kings cross fair enough but in a quiet cafe?!?

 

[POAH]

Haha small group I dont thing so. Have your opinion, thars mine now deal with it.

And now your calling me a perv? Seems like someone is getting very defensive? You cant back your argument up by calling someone a perv.

didn't call you a perv I said "To suggest you are being forced to look away means you are wanting to look but can't which seems a bit pervy"

I don't have an argument - I'm wondering why you find it so offensive for which you've not actually put anything forward to say why.

 

[Marc]

And as for this... well its just bloody stupid. It doesnt warrent a real reply to be honest.

Phil, reign it in please. If you can't respect other peoples' opinions, I suggest you leave the thread.

 

[Headless Lois]

No it doesnt need addressing. Its very disrespectful to other people to start feeding in a cafe or such. Ive nothing against the activity but I do not want to be forced to have it done infront of me. I dont thing it has becpme more acceptable I just think now the world has gone pc mad people are scared to speak up n say they dont wana see it.

Like the post above addresses the gay couple I have gay friends and I dont have an issue with it. What I do have an issue with is unnecessary desplays of affection to try and prove a point to society. A straight couple wouldnt do that.

There are many places with baby changing or feeding rooms.

What is the hardship of using those?

well, you are proof it does need addressing in all honesty.
What about breastfeeding is it that makes it so offensive to you? It's a baby, feeding. That's all. So why should it be hidden away? As already mentioned, a lot of the facilities are in toilets - suggesting to someone they feed a baby in a toilet I think is a lot more offensive

 

[barratt1988]

Phil, reign it in please. If you can't respect other peoples' opinions, I suggest you leave the thread.

Haha brilliant. And for others not respecting my opinions?

 

[Marc]

Haha brilliant. And for others not respecting my opinions?

This isn't up for debate

 

[big soft moose]

well, you are proof it does need addressing in all honesty.
What about breastfeeding is it that makes it so offensive to you? It's a baby, feeding. That's all. So why should it be hidden away? As already mentioned, a lot of the facilities are in toilets - suggesting to someone they feed a baby in a toilet I think is a lot more offensive

To be fair i sort of agree with Phil (on point at least) - I don't particularly want to see a woman's breasts in public, so if she's breast feeding i would look away

I don't have a problem with breast feeding done in public so long as it is discrete - I'd be less happy about someone tandem feeding a couple of todlers, or indeed a child and a foal in public as that would be less likely to be doable in a discrete manner and it isnt something i particularly want to look at.

 

[Headless Lois]

To be fair i sort of agree with Phil (on point at least) - I don't particularly want to see a woman's breasts in public, so if she's breast feeding i would look away

I don't have a problem with breast feeding done in public so long as it is discrete - I'd be less happy about someone tandem feeding a couple of todlers, or indeed a child and a foal in public as that would be less likely to be doable in a discrete manner and it isnt something i particularly want to look at.

I think I can say with a fair amount of confidence that most mothers are unlikely to tandem feed a child and a foal. I mean, where can you go that you're even allowed to TAKE a foal along? Not the cafe at your local M&S, I ll bet.
Most mothers that I have encountered are more than discrete about the process. There isn't much breast actually on display, usually.

 

[big soft moose]

There isn't much breast actually on display, usually.

And thats fine by me

i would however have an issue with the sort of feeding depicted in the other thread beiing done publically - thats certainly not discrete or rspectful to those arround you

(hence my other point that these pictures could have an effect 180 degrees from that intended)

 

[Headless Lois]

And thats fine by me

i would however have an issue with the sort of feeding depicted in the other thread beiing done publically - thats certainly not discrete or rspectful to those arround you

(hence my other point that these pictures could have an effect 180 degrees from that intended)

Yes, I think I agree, in that to normalise breastfeeding, it needs to be done in small increments to not turn people off. Slow old process, progress.
I am also concerned that there seems to be an anti 'any other type of milk' vibe from the op. I can't make out whether it's anti-dairy or whether it's more of a case of 'other species only drink their own milk, so we need to get over that being the case for us, whilst it is'

 

[big soft moose]

its not really true anyway - lots of species will drink dairy milk given the opportunity

 

[Headless Lois]

its not really true anyway - lots of species will drink dairy milk given the opportunity

as I mentioned, I suspect they just have practicality issues in acquiring it

 

[POAH]

There isn't much breast actually on display, usually.

what with an arm and a big baby's head in the way you'd struggle to see anything

 

[Yv]

as I mentioned, I suspect they just have practicality issues in acquiring it

Exactly, well, withut human intervention anyway. Although there are plenty of documented cases where 'domesticated' animals have taken on a new born of another species and fed it together with their own litters when the youngsters natural mum is unable to for whatever reason, usually with human intervention but there are even a few where it has happened naturally. With some individual animal mothers, the maternal instinct really is that strong.


I think the majority [I did say majority, not 'all'] of people in this thread are agreeing on several points here - that discreet breast feeding in public is perfectly acceptable, indeed natural and that an 'in your face shock campaign' is not the way to make those that find it unacceptable or mums that won't consider breast feeding, reconsider. I also think its fair to say, based on the mums I know that have breast fed, that they want it to be discreet too, they don't want to be locked away in a toilet, but nor do they want to be flapping their breasts around for all and sundry to have a good long gawp at, they just want to be allowed to feed their babies whilst having as normal a life as possible whilst the nights are sleepless, the days long and the laundry pile getting ever bigger.

 

[POAH]

is there anything other than discrete - I suspect woman don't really want to be flashing their milk engorged breasts at every tom dick and harry :|

 

[Yv]

is there anything other than discrete - I suspect woman don't really want to be flashing their milk engorged breasts at every tom dick and harry :|

I edited it to make more sense while you were typing

 

[POAH]

I edited it to make more sense while you were typing

that's just cruel

 

[Yv]

that's just cruel

I know, I know.... but its been one of those days, thankyou for being my muse

 

[Hell on earth]

Has this gone tits up yet or you all still milking it

 

[Donnie]

When a baby is developing they get blood from the mother which contains her cellular and humoral immune protection. When a baby is born they are cut off from this supply thus the protection disappears after around 2 weeks. The immune system just like a lot of other parts of a baby don't fully develop until after birth. When a baby is breast fed they get protection from the parts of the mothers secretory immune system.

please tell me which part of that is not fact.

Umm the bit that's highlighted?

the antibodies from the mothers blood continue to work up to about 6 months, breast feeding fills in the gaps while the babies immune system develops to take over.

 

[Donnie]

O really.. do I? It is as I just stated rude and unnecessary there are facilities to do such a thing. I dont wana see it! And if it where my child id take my partner elsewhere out of respect for other people. Just because it is natural doesnt mean it is socially acceptable

This is the type of attitude that puts the UK as one of the worst countries in the world for breastfeeding children past the 6 month mark

 

[Willid1]

This is the type of attitude that puts the UK as one of the worst countries in the world for breastfeeding children past the 6 month mark

This is the crying shame of all this debate. The beneficial effects of being breastfed on a childs early, and later adult life have been shown over and over again.

David

 

[big soft moose]

This is the crying shame of all this debate. The beneficial effects of being breastfed on a childs early, and later adult life have been shown over and over again.

David

Being breastfed as a baby - definitely

Continuing being breast fed as a toddler - not really (only when an other healthy and nutrious food source isnt readily available - as with the WHO advice aimed at developing countries)

 

[POAH]

Umm the bit that's highlighted?

the antibodies from the mothers blood continue to work up to about 6 months, breast feeding fills in the gaps while the babies immune system develops to take over.

I missed out the words start to

I've got no issue accepting I didn't write something down correctly

 

[s162216]

I am entirely neutral on this debate, but in case anyone is interested, the actual 'antibody' part of breastfeeding (and indeed the maternal antibodies as well) is not quite as clear cut as might be thought.

Only the IgG type immunoglobulins (antibodies) can be transferred across the placenta to the developing baby (because only they can be bound to the transporter molecules), and after birth the baby will have a serum level similar to that of an adult.

IgG does the majority of antibody activity in the body (and is therefore the most common), and the maternal IgG level in the babies serum declines as it becomes more diluted (in the growing baby) as well as being catabolised. As you can see in the graph below, the level is practically zero within 4 - 6 months, but from birth the baby will almost immediately begin to produce its own IgG to compensate although at about 4 - 6 months the total serum level of IgG is very low which leaves the baby at its greatest risk of illness and infection.

(Figure 11.12, page 441, Janeway's Immunobiology (5th Edition, 2001), Churchill Livingstone)

It has been said above that the antibodies in breast milk compensate for this. Unfortunately that not quite true as breast milk mainly contains IgA (~90%) and only small amounts of IgG (See Lönnerdal (2003) http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/77/6/1537S.long#sec-15). The IgA is mainly that of the secretory type (sIgA - not shown on the above graph) which does not enter the serum so although the gastrointestinal tract and mouth area of the baby have a good degree of protection, the rest of the body unfortunately does not so there is still a large risk of illness and infection as the IgG is still low, whether breast fed or not. IgM (which provides non-specific protection during the primary immune response) does rise quite rapidly from birth, but its role is quite small as it lacks the ability to do too much against infection.

I'm not pretending to be an expert on this (I did quite a lot of immunology as part of my pharmacology degree) but if anyone does not quite understand anything I said above then I'll try and explain it a bit simpler.

 

[Willid1]

I'm not pretending to be an expert on this (I did quite a lot of immunology as part of my pharmacology degree) but if anyone does not quite understand anything I said above then I'll try and explain it a bit simpler.

Well done that man for actually putting some referenced data in one of these debates.

I have started to see references appearing in some BBC Science News webpage reports as well, about time too is all I can say.

Anybody feel like a lecture on 29.10.13

UCL Lunchtime Lecture - Breast is Best

David

 

[Daysleeper40]

Having looked at the original thread and read this one too... I can't help but think you are getting carried away with the ancillary 'why is cows milk acceptable' and 'what age is too old' arguments. The aim of your project is unclear for me.

I honestly think that the majority of breast feeding mums go about it in a discreet fashion which most reasonable people would barely even notice let alone find offensive. For those that do find it offensive, you're not going to convince them otherwise by displaying pictures of extended breast feeding, tandem feeding, or women feeding other mammals. That is only going to alienate them.

I have no issue with breast feeding babies or toddlers. Personal opinion - extended breast feeding is more to do with mum than child, but that is their prerogative. When baby is small there is a need to feed on demand and if you happen to be in a coffee shop at the time you have every right to feed your baby. All the breast feeding mums I know manage to do it without waving their boobs in anybody's face and I fail to see how it is offensive. However, if you choose to breast feed your 3 year old that argument no longer holds any water. An older child does not 'need' breast milk on demand and from personal experience it is a lot less discreet feeding a toddler than a baby... much more boob on display and I can understand why some people would not appreciate it.

I do also think it is an incredibly difficult topic to get right. If my partner and I are lucky enough to be able to have a baby I know it is going to be impossible for me to breast feed. I have already been made to feel like a failure even as a potential mother due to some of the breast feeding zealots I have encountered. I'm all for breast feeding if you can and want to - but shoving it in peoples faces is not the way to 'normalise' it in my opinion.

 

[Daysleeper40]

...and having also just had a look at your blog I have to say - as someone who physically would not be able to breastfeed, I'm a bit offended by this sentiment:

"There’s also nothing more, in my opinion, that a mother can give her child, than breast milk – the most selfless act that a mother can do is breastfeed her child"

 

[akr]

I'm not pretending to be an expert on this (I did quite a lot of immunology as part of my pharmacology degree) but if anyone does not quite understand anything I said above then I'll try and explain it a bit simpler.

Your entire post stole the words right out of my mouth Thanks that was interesting.

I do also think it is an incredibly difficult topic to get right. If my partner and I are lucky enough to be able to have a baby I know it is going to be impossible for me to breast feed. I have already been made to feel like a failure even as a potential mother due to some of the breast feeding zealots I have encountered.

There are some crazy people out there! As I said to Nat in my first post in this thread - do what you want, or can. Should you (hopefully) have a child in the future, you will be inundated with an unending list of things you cannot eat \ do \ drink and then post birth another lengthy set of 'must be's for your child.

For me, as long as a child is fed healthily and more importantly has love and attention and is happy, that is the most important thing. We are expecting our second child in January, and I would have no concerns about using formula - I expect we will mix and match this time around, but in hindsight I wish we had used formula with our first as my wife had some issues with the breastfeeding, which led to him becoming habituated to wanting a feed every 1.5 hours - not fun for 6 months!

I take a lot of surveys with a pinch of salt - in the instance of breast milk v formula there are so many external factors that I don't worry about it, and I don't think you should either.

Good luck

 

[jakeblu]

A 'specialist' teacher came in for a lesson about breast feeding, and frankly she was the worst sort of liberal, leftie, semi bearded hippie woman who banged the drum reinforcing the WHO's teachings of breast is best.

I rather fancy that statement says more about you than the specialist teacher.

Steve

 

[jakeblu]

There is currently conflicting evidence that breast feeding delivers all that it promises to do. Most detracters do not claim there is no benefit but rather it has been overplayed. It undoubtedly does have benefits but in a modern western country its probably not the lifesaver that it can be in the 3rd world and neither is it quite the panacea for perfect health some would have us believe.

This is an interesting thread, It was clearly meant to provoke controversy and expose the prejudices regarding breast feeding of which I am certain was the op's original intentions but its no worse a thread for it. It just shows that despite the seemingly loosening of moral standards and the 'see it all internet' there is still an element of prudishness/outrage on something that is a perfectly natural act.

As a note my wife breast fed all 4 of our children until she had to return to work, as most mothers these days. I encouraged her to do so as it was considerably cheaper and i didn't have to get up during the night


Steve

 

[the black fox]

what a load of waffle ,the thread is supposed to be about whether the photos are acceptable ,all i can say is that in the u.k you could find that it leads to problems if you ever have your computer serviced etc due to our draconian laws

 

[big soft moose]

Sorry , but wrong on both counts - a) that isn't what this thread is supposed to be about, and b) having pictures of nursing infants on your computer is not illegal.