Breastfeeding Debate

[Headless Lois]

Right, but give a foal a bottle of human milk and to be honest, I couldn't give a monkeys. The image you refer to surely does nothing to normalise breastfeeding, and in fact creates the exact opposite effect.
People drinking the milk of other mammals is an entirely different kettle of fish to the subject of continuing breastfeeding children beyond the accepted norm.
Which is also a slightly different subject to simply normalising breastfeeding in public.

Tackle 1 issue at a time and you'll get progress.

 

[Sparkles33]

this!

It IS socially acceptable to drink the milk of another mammal, cow, goat, sheep, camel etc and even human breast milk is now available as a 'drink' for other humans. However, in the same way that a photo of a human suckling milk straight from the goats udder would be considered both unacceptable and a device to create offence, ditto another mammal suckling from a human. I cannot for the life of me see how this would normalise or in any way promote the natural benefits of breast feeding or make anyone more comfortable about the whole concept of breast feeding in public, whether that is the feeder or the onlooker.

That's why I didn't post it. I didn't think that the image was needed to express the point. Certainly not being used in the exhibition...it's not what the exhibition is about. Sorry, should have probably made it more clear.

 

[Headless Lois]

I cannot for the life of me see how this would normalise or in any way promote the natural benefits of breast feeding or make anyone more comfortable about the whole concept of breast feeding in public, whether that is the feeder or the onlooker.

I think this is a great point actually - lumping breastfeeding in with something that a lot of people are going to find freakish is going to make breastfeeding itself seem more odd, not less.

 

[Sparkles33]

Right, but give a foal a bottle of human milk and to be honest, I couldn't give a monkeys. It does nothing to normalise breastfeeding, and in fact creates the exact opposite effect.
People drinking the milk of other mammals is an entirely different kettle of fish.

It was raised because of hearing/the generalisation of "they should be on formula/cows milk/goats milk by x age" though I don't think it's actually been said in this thread. Somewhat pre-emptive, I know. Sorry for the confusion. If I'd posted that image, it would've taken away from what the question is, hence not posting it - that and the offensive controversy to make a statement that's not needed.

 

[Davec223]

Natalie, you say that Marcel's reaction is common and so it should be. A horse feeding from a Breast of a human is almost, if not in the realm of pornography in the same way if it was a human feeding directly from a cows udder.
I take it that you do not drink milk or eat any dairy products?


Edit. I am on my phone so other posts have been posted while I was typing this.

 

[Headless Lois]

It was raised because of hearing/the generalisation of "they should be on formula/cows milk/goats milk by x age" though I don't think it's actually been said in this thread. Somewhat pre-emptive, I know. Sorry for the confusion.

do other mammals have the ability to milk other animals for their own needs/desires though. Surely there would be practicality issues?
Is the argument that people should simple stop drinking milk once they are of an age to?
which is again quite a shift from normalising breastfeeding. It's a bit like the breastfeeding thing is cover for a wider issue?

 

[Yv]

Ok, I can see what you are saying and in many ways, we shouldn't be repulsed by the idea of drinking human breast milk beyond weaning - however, there is the crux of the matter. All those alternate mammals don't suckle much beyond weaning - maybe a little comfort suckle once in a while, but even if left totally to their own devices [as opposed to farmed animals], feeding the young stops naturally. So looking at humans, yes, we drink the milk of other mammals, simply as another farmed food source, in theory, we don't actually 'need' it, we should be getting all those nutrients from a good diet anyway. If you want to continue to give your child breast milk after natural weaning, that is your choice, but it is understandable that many find the image of a 4 or 5 yr old breat feeding disturbing. Milk is relatively cheap and easy to produce and has been for hundreds of years, BUT at no point have we as humans suckled it straight from the breast of said mammal, nor should you be surprised that images of the reverse would cause offence. As Lois said, I couldn't give a rats backside if you want to bottlefeed a foal with human milk, but having it feed straight from the human breast is not going to do the cause of breast milk or its benefits any kind of good in any way.

 

[Sparkles33]

I think this is a great point actually - lumping breastfeeding in with something that a lot of people are going to find freakish is going to make breastfeeding itself seem more odd, not less.

That's interesting...got me thinking of those images that circulate now! lol You may have seen them, several mammals feeding their young then a human suckling usually on a cow - usually a man suited up. Superimposed I would imagine.

 

[Davec223]

That's interesting...got me thinking of those images that circulate now! lol You may have seen them, several mammals feeding their young then a human suckling usually on a cow - usually a man suited up. Superimposed I would imagine.

No, can't say that I have and again if it's a breastfeeding campaign I think it is a very strange way of getting the point across.

 

[Sparkles33]

do other mammals have the ability to milk other animals for their own needs/desires though. Surely there would be practicality issues?
Is the argument that people should simple stop drinking milk once they are of an age to?
which is again quite a shift from normalising breastfeeding. It's a bit like the breastfeeding thing is cover for a wider issue?

No, more that it was a "they're too old!" which was seen a lot on the other thread. More of a "well, - why? How old should they be breastfed until, then?" My personal opinion is that it should be upto the mother and child when weaning is completed. Weaning is the transition of moving from infant food to solid food, which in all cultures as far as I'm aware, takes years (including formulas and mammal milk from other mammals). I don't understand why it's frowned upon for a child to have human milk - it's designed for them, after all. Breast milk changes to fulfil the needs of the child, so a woman produces antibodies for a cold if the child has cold, for example, which is why SCBUs (locally anyway) only take breast milk donations until the child that the mother donating is feeding, is 6 months old, at least that's the reason that I understand the 6 month age cap for donations. Drinking milk from other mammals, meh, whatever works for you, but why is human milk seen so negatively and other milks so acceptable in comparison, that's what fries my noodles. LOL

Ok, I can see what you are saying and in many ways, we shouldn't be repulsed by the idea of drinking human breast milk beyond weaning - however, there is the crux of the matter. All those alternate mammals don't suckle much beyond weaning - maybe a little comfort suckle once in a while, but even if left totally to their own devices [as opposed to farmed animals], feeding the young stops naturally. So looking at humans, yes, we drink the milk of other mammals, simply as another farmed food source, in theory, we don't actually 'need' it, we should be getting all those nutrients from a good diet anyway. Except milk is relatively cheap and easy to produce and has been for hundreds of years, BUT at no point have we as humans suckled it straight from the breast of said mammal, not should you be surprised that images of the reverse would cause offence. As Lois said, I couldn't give a rats backside if you want to bottlefeed a foal with human milk, but having it feed straight from the human breast is not going to do the cause of breast milk or its benefits any kind of good in any way.

If they still have milk, they're not fully weaned though. Feeding stops naturally in other mammals, so why is it frowned upon for the same to happen with humans? Why is there so much peer pressure to stop or switch to milk from another mammal? Locally around here, not many women breastfeed beyond a few months. If it's their choice, score! Awesome that they breastfed for any length of time. If they've been pressured into stopping - in my opinion, that's immoral.

 

[Sparkles33]

No, can't say that I have and again if it's a breastfeeding campaign I think it is a very strange way of getting the point across.

They're tongue in cheek images that circulate the likes of facebook. Natural parenting pages tend to have a lot. Think along the lines of Skyrim fans and their ever circulating "I used to be an explorer (?) til I took an arrow in the knee" style humour. I believe it's for the shock tactic of "actually, breastfeeding is nature. Just because you take it from the cow and put it in a bottle, doesn't mean that it's not milk for a calf" a bit harsh and exaggerated, provoking a shock reaction.

 

[Tigger.ufo]

I think that if you had been honest in the first place by stating that you want to try to normalise extended breast feeding rather than just breast feeding itself then you might have got very different comments than the ones you have.

Bringing animals into the discussion has not helped your cause one bit.

Whether you like it or not, breast feeding older children is not the norm within the culture of the UK, although with the huge increase in immigrant births this may change, as in the Eastern European cultures it is common to continue to breast feed older children.

Also using the fact that adults drink cows milk is a bit of a red herring as it is just another protein/food source and nothing to do with being weaned or not.


Heather

 

[big soft moose]

why is human milk seen so negatively and other milks so acceptable in comparison, that's what fries my noodles. LOL
.

Because a child that age needs to be eating solid food to get the right blend of nutrition. A child wouldn't be fed purely on cows milk either.

 

[big soft moose]

in the Eastern European cultures it is common to continue to breast feed older children.

isn't that directly linked to poverty and the lack of solid foods suitable for infants though..

 

[Davec223]

If they still have milk, they're not fully weaned though. Feeding stops naturally in other mammals, so why is it frowned upon for the same to happen with humans? Why is there so much peer pressure to stop or switch to milk from another mammal? Locally around here, not many women breastfeed beyond a few months. If it's their choice, score! Awesome that they breastfed for any length of time. If they've been pressured into stopping - in my opinion, that's immoral.

So by your logic I am still not weaned as I still drink milk by the glass full, not because I need it but because I enjoy it. But I do think it was weird if I was Breast feeding

They're tongue in cheek images that circulate the likes of facebook. Natural parenting pages tend to have a lot. Think along the lines of Skyrim fans and their ever circulating "I used to be an explorer (?) til I took an arrow in the knee" style humour. I believe it's for the shock tactic of "actually, breastfeeding is nature. Just because you take it from the cow and put it in a bottle, doesn't mean that it's not milk for a calf" a bit harsh and exaggerated, provoking a shock reaction.

Understand what you are saying but again to many people they just wouldn't understand what was trying to be said and personally I think it would demonise mothers who breastfeed even more.

 

[Sparkles33]

I think that if you had been honest in the first place by stating that you want to try to normalise extended breast feeding rather than just breast feeding itself then you might have got very different comments than the ones you have.

Bringing animals into the discussion has not helped your cause one bit.

Whether you like it or not, breast feeding older children is not the norm within the culture of the UK, although with the huge increase in immigrant births this may change, as in the Eastern European cultures it is common to continue to breast feed older children.


Heather

The project is to normalise breastfeeding. All breastfeeding. The image of the youngest child is of the child being less than 20 minutes old. The comments that have been recieved on the other thread, were the likes of "they're too old". The question is "why?". The average age to stop breastfeeding is over 4 years old. It's not all impoverished countries - the Netherlands for example, have much higher breastfeeding statistics than we do. Animals is a valid point - why should a 2 year old be drinking cows milk over human milk? I sincerely can't understand that. If a child is breastfed at 2 - what the issue? Why is there an issue? etc.

Because a child that age needs to be eating solid food to get the right blend of nutrition. A child wouldn't be fed purely on cows milk either.

Nor would they be fed purely on breast milk. Surely that argument then extends to "a child doesn't need any kind of milk at that age"? and if that's not the case, why has milk designed for another mammal suddenly become more preferable? Cows milk has bovine stem cells, bovine antibodies, bovine hormones etc. Human milk has human stem cells, human antibodies, human hormones. Milk in general, is the primary source for human consumption of calcium in our culture (other foods have it too, like avocado for example). Even other milks, such as almond milk, have calcium, but aren't as preferable to the masses as cows milk. If a 2 year old wants breast milk - should there be an issue and why? I personally don't see an issue, but openly admit that the first time I saw or heard about it, I was shocked.


Sincerely, I am genuinely interested as to why people have the opinions that they do.

 

[Sparkles33]

So by your logic I am still not weaned as I still drink milk by the glass full, not because I need it but because I enjoy it. But I do think it was weird if I was Breast feeding



Understand what you are saying but again to many people they just wouldn't understand what was trying to be said and personally I think it would demonise mothers who breastfeed even more.

Technically. You still consume milk that is designed for an infant of a species. Most people do. It's just a milk from another species. Make me wonder when it became more commonplace to consume milk, regularly, after "weaning". Milk (more specifically mostly cows milk) is in so many of our foods - especially if you eat out or buy ready prepared foods, it's the norm to have a few pints in your kitchen. It's accepted socially by the masses to consume milk and probably does most people an obscene amount of good, IMO.

Yes, I agree, it could easily be interpreted to demonise women more. The photographer that took the photo was quoted in an article. It's actually nice, something about the foal would play with the child and he'd never seen such an act of interspecies compassion before. However, I doubt that many people would see it in the same light.

 

[Davec223]

I think the main thing is that mothers do what is right for them, be it breastfeeding until 4 or be it as my wife was, not breastfeed our youngest as she just didn't like it having Breast feed or elder 2 for 6 weeks. My wife just never felt comfortable breastfeeding but was pressured into it by the medical profession I remember being in tears feeding, causing distress to baby so she didn't enjoy them till she was bottle feeding.

 

[Sparkles33]

Also using the fact that adults drink cows milk is a bit of a red herring as it is just another protein/food source and nothing to do with being weaned or not.

Actually, that's the issue.

Why is it more acceptable to drink milk for another species than milk from your own species? Why at x age, is there a preference, socially, to drink milk that's not from your own species over milk that is from your own species?

 

[Davec223]

Technically. You still consume milk that is designed for an infant of a species. Most people do. It's just a milk from another species. Make me wonder when it became more commonplace to consume milk, regularly, after "weaning". Milk (more specifically mostly cows milk) is in so many of our foods - especially if you eat out or buy ready prepared foods, it's the norm to have a few pints in your kitchen. It's accepted socially by the masses to consume milk and probably does most people an obscene amount of good, IMO.

Interesting, so going back to a question I asked earlier earlier, so you not drink milk or eat any dairy products and if you don't is it because of an allergy or because of the way you see it as being cross species?

 

[Sparkles33]

I think the main thing is that mothers do what is right for them, be it breastfeeding until 4 or be it as my wife was, not breastfeed our youngest as she just didn't like it having Breast feed or elder 2 for 6 weeks. My wife just never felt comfortable breastfeeding but was pressured into it by the medical profession I remember being in tears feeding, causing distress to baby so she didn't enjoy them till she was bottle feeding.

I agree. The only thing that parents can do as parents, is what is best for their family. That differs for every family!

That's so sad. She shouldn't have been pressured into it. She shouldn't have felt so bad that she was in tears and she shouldn't have been failed in the way that she was, by them. (Sorry, it makes me quite upset and angry when peoples wishes with their children aren't respected and they're pressured into doing things.) How a baby is nourished isn't as important as the child being loved and cared for. So sad that she had to suffer that way.

 

[Sparkles33]

Interesting, so going back to a question I asked earlier earlier, so you not drink milk or eat any dairy products and if you don't is it because of an allergy or because of the way you see it as being cross species?

I don't now. Both my daughter and I have allergies, however, I did eat dairy and drink milk (and control the allergy in some fashion!) until my daughter was diagnosed with her allergies. They were making her too poorly and I couldn't justify eating dairy/drinking milk for pleasure and convenience. I really miss cheesey pizzas and that'll probably be my first big guilty pleasure when she no longer has my milk. I don't have an issue with people consuming dairy, with formula feeding, with anything like that, I just don't understand why there's such a negative reaction to human milk and overwhelming acceptance and preference for cows and goats milk.

 

[Davec223]

Actually, that's the issue.

Why is it more acceptable to drink milk for another species than milk from your own species? Why at x age, is there a preference, socially, to drink milk that's not from your own species over milk that is from your own species?

Thinking about this, I would think it is down to the cost of cows milk compared to formula milk. I know that breast milk is free but I would say that an awful lot of mothers need to return to what they see as their normal life without the "hassle" of breastfeeding or expressing milk. What I mean by normal life is work. Which is another discussion completely.

 

[Sparkles33]

Thinking about this, I would think it is down to the cost of cows milk compared to formula milk. I know that breast milk is free but I would say that an awful lot of mothers need to return to what they see as their normal life without the "hassle" of breastfeeding or expressing milk. What I mean by normal life is work. Which is another discussion completely.

I was having a discussion along these lines with my husband earlier. LOL. Surely if work is the issue for the decline in acceptance of "extended breastfeeding" the issue, once again, falls to lack of support for those who need it? It's hard for a mother to be away from her child, harder still IMO for them to concentrate and fully apply themselves. Along with the social pressures of conforming fulfil whatever previous commitiments that were there prior to baby coming along. If they don't have adequate support, they become more stressed and in order to make life more manageable, things that are for convenience are put into place. Out of context here, but along the lines of "I'm too tired to cook tonight, long day at work, I'll order in" and when a mother is breastfeeding, that may include switching to formula/cows milk, so that she can multi-task or whatever easier. Also stresses make it harder to lactate, so feeds may last longer or little one may get fussier as milk flow is slower etc. But if it started that way, surely it's also quite alarming that our culture has changed to be so stressful in the last, say, 5 generations?

Just brainstorming here...assumptions (dangerous I know) combined with snippets of knowledge lol

 

[Ivan S]

Actually, that's the issue.

Why is it more acceptable to drink milk for another species than milk from your own species? Why at x age, is there a preference, socially, to drink milk that's not from your own species over milk that is from your own species?

I wonder where all this breast milk would come from if every adult in the world only drank human milk:shrug:, cows produce lots of milk? there's lots of cows that have nothing better to do than eat grass, produce milk etc, it's not really an argument you can have, it's like saying, why don't we eat humans instead of cows.

 

[Sparkles33]

Do we NEED to consume milk after childhood though?
Isn't it just a culture choice?

 

[barratt1988]

Ive nothing against breastfeeding but I dont want to see it in public. In this day and age many stupid things offend people but when you mention this people think you are daft for not wanting it in public.

Ive heard no end of times its natural and thus should be ok... sex is natural but people wouldnt accept that In public

 

[Davec223]

Ive nothing against breastfeeding but I dont want to see it in public. In this day and age many stupid things offend people but when you mention this people think you are daft for not wanting it in public.

Ive heard no end of times its natural and thus should be ok... sex is natural but people wouldnt accept that In public

But they totally different things, one is feeding an infant while the other is a recreational activity most of the time.

 

[big soft moose]

I was having a discussion along these lines with my husband earlier. LOL. Surely if work is the issue for the decline in acceptance of "extended breastfeeding" the issue, once again, falls to lack of support for those who need it?

But they don't "need it" because extended breast feeding isn't 'necessary' - so why should the rest of society support someone who makes a choice to do something that isn't actually needed ?

 

[Headless Lois]

Do we NEED to consume milk after childhood though?
Isn't it just a culture choice?

Yes, of course it is a choice. Saying that cow's milk though was somehow meant for calves is a tad disingenuous - we artificially keep cows providing milk for long periods of time that they would not naturally do so for, I thought?
Also, the majority of cows wouldn't exist in the first place, without the milking industry.

For me, you have massively muddied the waters of what your campaign is about - hopefully the exhibition will stay a little more on message, if there is a real message there, which I am now doubting.

I think it's an incredible shame actually, that your initial message of 'breastfeeding is normal/breastfeeding for longer is normal' is lost against the issue of 'and why should people drink cow's milk anyway'.

If a foal loses its mother and is hand reared, what milk does it get provided with? Dogs and cats also get fed dairy products (preferably lactose free). The inter-species thing is a complete red herring, and totally detracts from the main point.

 

[POAH]

You quoted him saying "a new born's immune system is not fully developed and the mothers antibodies disappear after about 2 weeks"

When a baby is developing they get blood from the mother which contains her cellular and humoral immune protection. When a baby is born they are cut off from this supply thus the protection disappears after around 2 weeks. The immune system just like a lot of other parts of a baby don't fully develop until after birth. When a baby is breast fed they get protection from the parts of the mothers secretory immune system.

please tell me which part of that is not fact.

 

[POAH]

Ive nothing against breastfeeding but I dont want to see it in public. In this day and age many stupid things offend people but when you mention this people think you are daft for not wanting it in public.

Ive heard no end of times its natural and thus should be ok... sex is natural but people wouldnt accept that In public

if you get offended by breast feeding in public you have something wrong with you

What is so offensive about it?

 

[POAH]

Do we NEED to consume milk after childhood though?
Isn't it just a culture choice?

no, the high levels of calcium and other parts of milk are essential for a child's development hence why full fat milk is recommended once a baby reaches 1 year.

 

[POAH]

poah, you've said repeatedly there are no benefits to breastmilk after 2 weeks.

no I didn't You've read my posts incorrectly which I can only assume is why the dummy is now on the floor

 

[barratt1988]

if you get offended by breast feeding in public you have something wrong with you

What is so offensive about it?

O really.. do I? It is as I just stated rude and unnecessary there are facilities to do such a thing. I dont wana see it! And if it where my child id take my partner elsewhere out of respect for other people. Just because it is natural doesnt mean it is socially acceptable

 

[POAH]

O really.. do I? It is as I just stated rude and unnecessary there are facilities to do such a thing. I dont wana see it! And if it where my child id take my partner elsewhere out of respect for other people. Just because it is natural doesnt mean it is socially acceptable

how is it rude?

 

[Headless Lois]

how is it rude?

Quite. It patently isn't rude, and that is the exact attitude that needs addressing with breastfeeding becoming MORE acceptable and MORE widely practiced in public, because then people will just have to get over it/themselves.

I don't think there are facilities in most places anyway?

 

[Gremlin]

You also have the age old problem, if you push something in peoples faces then the will object.
I have friends who are gay and have had for many years, most of them just want to get on with their lives, and most say that all this gay rights etc. just causes them more problems , I could see the same thing happening here if you really are going to get fanatical about it.
Most people here have said they don't have a problem, and if done discreetly in public it's fine, babies need to be fed, but surely a more mature child can be made to understand that mum might not always be in a situation to give in to their demands :shrug:

 

[barratt1988]

Quite. It patently isn't rude, and that is the exact attitude that needs addressing with breastfeeding becoming MORE acceptable and MORE widely practiced in public, because then people will just have to get over it/themselves.

I don't think there are facilities in most places anyway?

No it doesnt need addressing. Its very disrespectful to other people to start feeding in a cafe or such. Ive nothing against the activity but I do not want to be forced to have it done infront of me. I dont thing it has becpme more acceptable I just think now the world has gone pc mad people are scared to speak up n say they dont wana see it.

Like the post above addresses the gay couple I have gay friends and I dont have an issue with it. What I do have an issue with is unnecessary desplays of affection to try and prove a point to society. A straight couple wouldnt do that.

There are many places with baby changing or feeding rooms.

What is the hardship of using those?

 

[Yv]

No it doesnt need addressing. Its very disrespectful to other people to start feeding in a cafe or such. Ive nothing against the activity but I do not want to be forced to have it done infront of me. I dont thing it has becpme more acceptable I just think now the world has gone pc mad people are scared to speak up n say they dont wana see it.

Like the post above addresses the gay couple I have gay friends and I dont have an issue with it. What I do have an issue with is unnecessary desplays of affection to try and prove a point to society. A straight couple wouldnt do that.

There are many places with baby changing or feeding rooms.

What is the hardship of using those?

well apart from the fact most of them are actually part of the ladies toilets [do you want to eat your dinner in the toilets by any chance?] there are still a large majority that don't have any facilities at all. There is absolutely nothing wrong with public breast feeding of a baby, most ladies actually want to do it discreetly, but still be able to actually live normally, not be locked away from normal social interaction every few hours.

As I said earlier in this thread, it is something that requires re-education and empathy on all sides, not having rammed down throats with images that are designed to shock, that simply won't work and will probably turn more against it than into supporters of it.