Breastfeeding Debate

[Spuff]

Actually the exact reverse is often the case. Pressure from the breast feeding fraternity who try to make those who don't wish, or cannot breast feed feel guilty, has been our experience.

+1 Exactly this experience too. The sudden lack of support and disapproval from the nursing staff was incredible.

 

[boyfalldown]

Actually the exact reverse is often the case. Pressure from the breast feeding fraternity who try to make those who don't wish, or cannot breast feed feel guilty, has been our experience.


Anthony.

+1 Exactly this experience too. The sudden lack of support and disapproval from the nursing staff was incredible.

+2. Exactly the same experience.

 

[Julie1979]

+3 Even if you do breastfeed you're subjected to the conflicts of each side.

I was made to feel hopeless for getting it wrong both times and ending up in pain. My first health visitor was physically rough with me when helping me position my son. She works in a bank now.

Peer pressure is always present through life unfortunately. My friends think I did great feeding my first for 7 months. The WAG's of my husbands friends, however, turn their noses up at me.

Ultimately a happy baby and relationship is most important for me. My daughter gets the occasional bottle of formula when I am really struggling with her condition. It hurts to see but she is more satisfied afterwards.

 

[Byker28i]

I've always found it funny that some people complain about breast feeding in public, yet we have billboards of underwear models, newspaper images of celebrities or models topless etc.

 

[boyfalldown]

again, another opinion - where's your source please? That contradicts NCT, LLL and WHO. What source states these "facts" please?

But of all of those sources, WHO are concerned with welfare worldwide, so their guidance must cover everywhere from famine torn countries, where no alternative is available, to Surrey where they certainly are.

The other two show nothing other then casual links, which could equally be explained by other factors. After the first two weeks anyway. Just playing devils advocate.

 

[DorsetDude]

Why is there an NSFW on this thread? Most odd, even contradictory.

 

[Julie1979]

I've always found it funny that some people complain about breast feeding in public, yet we have billboards of underwear models, newspaper images of celebrities or models topless etc.

Maybe it's the human contact they are uncomfortable with. There was once a story that went a bit viral where a woman was told she would turn her daughter into a lesbian by breastfeeding her. The mentality of some people is just astounding.

 

[Julie1979]

Why is there an NSFW on this thread? Most odd, even contradictory.

no idea, I certainly have no plans for posting a demonstration photo on it.

 

[Donnie]

+1 Exactly this experience too. The sudden lack of support and disapproval from the nursing staff was incredible.

Sorry, you mean midwifery staff surely?

 

[Julie1979]

Sorry, you mean midwifery staff surely?

I think the term should be medical staff as I had a mix of midwives, healthcare assistants and health visitors giving advice. The healthcare assistants are around the wards to do things such as helping with feeding, bathing and nappy changes. For example for the first 24 hours I needed help getting Melissa out of her cot for me to change her due to me being sore from my section so it was a healthcare assistant who would help with that.

You also only see a midwife at home for a certain length of time when you're then handed off to a health visitor. It was after the midwife discharged me that everything started to go wrong with me.

 

[POAH]

again, another opinion - where's your source please? That contradicts NCT, LLL and WHO. What source states these "facts" please?

immunisation - http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/vaccination-schedule-age-checklist.aspx

new born immune system

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/939.aspx?CategoryID=54&SubCategoryID=135

how long to breast feed - I can't be arsed looking up stuff, do it yourself if you need the information.


I'm all for breast feeding so I really don't see why you are being so aggressive towards what I am saying. :shrug:


sure the WHO say 2 years but at 2 years how much milk is the walking talking child going to get since they should be eating what you eat. The WHO's 2 year suggestion is not really applicable to well fed children in the UK.

 

[big soft moose]

Personally I don't object to breast feeding in public per se - I just don't want to look at it , thus if i'm on a bus or in a cafe or whatever and a woman is breast feeding i will look away out of politeness and courtsey.

Ergo i'm not sure how an exhibition of photographs will 'normalise' breast feeding - there are many things that are completely normal that i have no particular desire to view.

 

[boyfalldown]

TBH Nat, It seems a little like you'd like to create some of the controversy that surrounded Time Magazine's 'Are you Mom enough?' cover. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline...r-sparks-immediate-controversy-151539970.html

 

[Sparkles33]

Poah, yet more opinion. there's considerable literature on the benefits of long term feeding, including cancer risk reduction for both parties.

Really saddened to read about pressure to bf when people have issues or wish not to. It seems the oposite is true locally - health visitors in my local town (possibly city from what I have heard) encourage to switch to formula, which is very upsetting. A child should, IMHO, be fed the best way for the mother and child concerned. As a parent, all you can do is what is best for your family unit. If that is mix feeding, breastfeeding or formula feeding, it shouldn't be an issue, so long as parents are happy with the decision, the mother more than the father.

The reason it's nsfw was I was going to post a couple of images too, the one I questioned as nsfw was a lady tandem feeding a child and foal.

 

[Sparkles33]

TBH Nat, It seems a little like you'd like to create some of the controversy that surrounded Time Magazine's 'Are you Mom enough?' cover. http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline...r-sparks-immediate-controversy-151539970.html

hehe ah I love that cover but no, it's a local project and this thread was made because of the other one.

 

[boyfalldown]

Poah, yet more opinion. there's considerable literature on the benefits of long term feeding, including cancer risk reduction for both parties.

The vast majority of that literature shows only a casual link though.........it may be BF causes those benefits, or it may be theres others things causing them and the BF is just a coincidence

 

[POAH]

Poah, yet more opinion. there's considerable literature on the benefits of long term feeding, including cancer risk reduction for both parties.

both my children breast fed till around 18 months when they stopped. we didn't stop them.

also can you point out which part of my posts are not fact

 

[Sparkles33]

Poah...still can't find any refs in your posts...only insults. I have an issue with misinformation being passed as fact, that is all. Googling "long term benefits of breastfeeding" brings up millions of hits....i couldn't see any saying that there are none. Please, if you can find them, do share....they would make a most interesting read.

 

[Sparkles33]

I also have a huge curiosity as to why people have opinions on breastfeeding relating to age, especially in UK. My opinion on why, is because it's somewhat hidden, so when it's seen or discussed, it can be alarming. A few years ago, I was shocked...until I did some research. Surely, ultimately, it should always be upto the child and mother when to wean, not society and peer pressure to conform?

 

[SarahLee]

Guys, just a reminder - this is an emotive subject, but can we please make an effort to make sure that it stays civil and polite?

Thanks,

 

[Spuff]

The reason it's nsfw was I was going to post a couple of images too, the one I questioned as nsfw was a lady tandem feeding a child and foal.

Just to clarify you've taken, or have obtained, a picture of a woman breastfeeding a foal at the same time as a child?

 

[Sparkles33]

Just to clarify you've taken, or have obtained, a picture of a woman breastfeeding a foal at the same time as a child?

No, there are many online. Mostly Indian women.

People drink milk from other species but some find drinking human milk bizarre (inc baby drinking, and older) and even more bizarre to them is another species drinking human milk. I find the reaction interesting tbh.

 

[POAH]

Poah...still can't find any refs in your posts...only insults. I have an issue with misinformation being passed as fact, that is all. Googling "long term benefits of breastfeeding" brings up millions of hits....i couldn't see any saying that there are none. Please, if you can find them, do share....they would make a most interesting read.

where is the miss-information in my posts?

 

[POAH]

Guys, just a reminder - this is an emotive subject, but can we please make an effort to make sure that it stays civil and polite?

Thanks,

over moderation of posts that are not personal or abusive is not a step in the right direction. It seems we can't even enquire to why people are being aggressive in their replies or suggest someone is spitting our their dummy now.

I got the same reply twice in a row telling me it was just opinion and not fact yet there was no specific reference given to me why what I had posted was not fact. That was my issue I wasn't making a personal attack.

 

[POAH]

Poah...still can't find any refs in your posts...only insults. I have an issue with misinformation being passed as fact, that is all. Googling "long term benefits of breastfeeding" brings up millions of hits....i couldn't see any saying that there are none. Please, if you can find them, do share....they would make a most interesting read.

so the two NHS links did not back up the information that I put down then - you've put nothing up to say why what I have written is not true.

You also seem to be missing the fact I've not actually said there are no benefits to long term breast feeding hence why I queried the lack of dummy that you seemed to take as a personal attack.

 

[Marcel]

over moderation of posts that are not personal or abusive is not a step in the right direction.

Your comments have been duly noted, but at the risk of sounding harsh....tough.

It seems we can't even enquire to why people are being aggressive in their replies or suggest someone is spitting our their dummy now.

Of course you can, you just can't be an arse about it.

If you wish to discuss a moderating decision, then use the relevant option. Moderating decisions are NOT open for public discussion.
A line from your post was removed because it was hostile and rude. End of discussion. You know where the contact us link is.
Thanks.

I was going to post a couple of images too, the one I questioned as nsfw was a lady tandem feeding a child and foal.

I'm all for freedom to breastfeed and discuss opinion, but that's an image that isn't going to be displayed on our forum.

 

[Spuff]

No, there are many online. Mostly Indian women.

People drink milk from other species but some find drinking human milk bizarre (inc baby drinking, and older) and even more bizarre to them is another species drinking human milk. I find the reaction interesting tbh.

I think you might struggle to achieve your "normalisation" objectives with an exhibition showing some snaps of a woman breastfeeding Neddy.

There are pictures of all sorts of activities on the internet. Not all of them are a good idea

 

[Headless Lois]

No, there are many online. Mostly Indian women.

People drink milk from other species but some find drinking human milk bizarre (inc baby drinking, and older) and even more bizarre to them is another species drinking human milk. I find the reaction interesting tbh.

People don't tend to drink from other species straight from the source do they?

I agree that if the aim is to normalise breatfeeding, setting out to deliberately shock people will have the absolute opposite effect

 

[joxby]

No...nursing in public isn't really a seperate issue. If people don't see/discuss breastfeeding, it becomes taboo. Nursing toddlers in public is less common than a newborn. However, family and friends may be aware of an older child feeding, may occassionally see it even, thus becoming less taboo and more normalised, that's the context nursing in public was referenced.

Well we're gonna fall out then, because I couldn't care less at what age a mother decides her child is too old to breastfeed, its her child her decision, she ought to be able to do what she thinks is best for them.
I don't however think they should visit that situation on everybody else, what a mother does in the privacy of her own space/room/cubical/home is her business, but that's where it ends, a private essential.....function.
I don't wanna see breast feeding while I'm having a pint any more than I wanna see a nappy change on a flippin park bench.
**** happens in life, sometimes its all you can do, but I definitely wouldn't want it normalising to the point that it becomes common place.

 

[Davec223]

I have read the thread with interest. I have no issue with breastfeeding at all. Although personally do find the breastfeeding of toddlers and older children a little strange and personally believe it has more to do with the mother rather than the child, that said I wouldn't want them to stop if that's what they want tand both the child and mother are happy. Although at the age of 3+ I do feel that there is no need to do this in a public place and should be done in the privacy of their own home or feeding /changing room.
Whilst doing a little googling on the subject I came across a rather interesting blog on the subject. I know it's a couple of years old but still an interesting read from what I could see from the quick scim I have had. http://breastfeedingwithoutbs.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/********ometer-no-average-age-of.html?m=1

Sorry link isn't working due to title look at October 19th 2011 to see the article. It questions the WHO data as to how they got to the average age of 4 for weaning.

 

[Ivan S]

No, there are many online. Mostly Indian women.

People drink milk from other species but some find drinking human milk bizarre (inc baby drinking, and older) and even more bizarre to them is another species drinking human milk. I find the reaction interesting tbh.

Well it's like everything in life and around the world as a whole, what's acceptable here is a lot different somewhere else, take the horse meat scandal as example, I'm sure it's fine to eat horses in some parts of the world.

 

[Ricardodaforce]

I just noticed an article about this subject in my flipboard. Maybe of interest to the protagonists here.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/14/breastfeeding-pictures-poses-facebook-bans

 

[Shine On]

Nattelie, I do mean this respectfully & constructively, but I have to say that whilst I agree about the benefits of breast feeding, I think you're at risk of turning a productive, educational opportunity into a crusade that ends up alienating more people than it might educate.

I don't wish to go into particularly personal details, but after terrible start with frankly shocking mixed advice and poor support from the medical community, my wife exclusively breast fed our son for several months from birth. Our NCT teacher was thankfully realistic about the subject, and whilst she had to tow the line from the WHO, she also was the only one who made the effort to tell us in our group that not breast feeding would not make you a failure. A 'specialist' teacher came in for a lesson about breast feeding, and frankly she was the worst sort of liberal, leftie, semi bearded hippie woman who banged the drum reinforcing the WHO's teachings of breast is best. On one hand, she asked all the men to leave to the class for most of it as, in her words, 'it's a mothering issue'. That immediately alienated both the men and women of the class. She then positively encouraged the women to actively feed in public etc, ignoring the reaction of others. This just made the ladies feel more self conscious, less comfortable, and more pressured. If you really look it's not at all uncommon to see ladies descretely feeding a baby whilst out and about, perhaps in a cafe or whatever. They are not making a big fuss, by being discrete they can be comfortable and relaxed, and therefore other people will be too, so it's a win win.

As for the age thing, I've never seen a toddler being breastfed like in your pictures, I don't know anyone who has fed their child at that kind of age (and as main carer for our now 3 year old son since my wife went back to work full time following her 12 months maternity leave, I've spent plenty of time around baby & toddler groups over the last 2 years), and my personal feelings that it's both unnecessary and uncomfortable to see. I have no facts or figures to quote you, I'm not interested in justifying my opinion, but I'd be willing to put significant sums of money on the fact that I'd not be alone in that sentiment if I asked the other parents (all mums) that I know and regularly see.

So to reiterate, I do completely respect your opinion and admire the project you've embarked upon, but do be careful not to just ram it down people's throats based on facts from the WHO, which aren't always particularly relevant to the environment, lifestyle and culture that we live in here in the UK.

 

[Sparkles33]

poah, you've said repeatedly there are no benefits to breastmilk after 2 weeks.

Marcel, hence why I didn't post a link to the image. For all that it would demonstrate adequately cross species and milk consumption, it's a little too controvercial for most people.

Anna, whether drinking from the source or not, I still don't understand why drinking milk intended by nature for another mammal is socially accepted right throughout life, but human milk isn't. I'm certainly not suggesting breastfeeding until death of an average life expectancy, just that I don't understand.

Joxby - isn't that the point? I wish your opinion on not caring when a child is weaned was more common. It seems everyone and their neighbour has an opinion on other peoples children and how they should be raised, sometimes!

ShineOn - that's shocking. As you well know, partners support in any method of feeding an infant is paramount. I took hubby to my classes and he was the only man, which saddens me a little tbh! So sorry to learn that the support was so poor when it was needed.

It seems very much that locally at least, although I expect it to be nationwide, that weaning by the age of one is expected by society. Older children often feed less frequently anyway, from what I know and have experienced, also that, in the words of a peer supporter "people hide it".

Paul, the majority of images are of children around 6-12 months, but I do admit that I'm somewhat fearful of negative reactions especially of the images of 2 year olds and the tandem feeding pic of a 2 year old and 8 month old. It's completely normal for somefamilies but I fear such a concept is going to be quite alien to many people. To be fair, I would have preferred more images of younger children under 6 months than what we have but it wasn't possible - and to be fair the newborn breastfeeding is a common image with breastfeeding literature.

 

[big soft moose]

poah, you've said repeatedly there are no benefits to breastmilk after 2 weeks.
.

I've no particular brief for Poah , indeed he and I don't see eye to eye on numerous subjects and I once got a serious telling off for calling him a troll - but, I have to be honest I haven't seen him say that here at all - indeed he seems to have been saying something quite different

a new born's immune system is not fully developed and the mothers antibodies disappear after about 2 weeks. Breast feeding keeps this up - they get their first round of immunisation at 2 months. babies don't need anything else other than breast milk for the first 6 months then they can get weaned off it.

both my children breast fed till around 18 months when they stopped. we didn't stop them.

On this subject I pretty much agree with poah - breast feeding babies is normal and healthy - breast feeding toddlers is not (unless you live in a poverty stricken society where breast milk is the only suitable food available) , Breast feeding livestock (especially in tandem with children) is distinctly not.

 

[omens]

IMO breastfeeding in public largely comes down to one issue: sexualisation of the breast. It is somehow acceptable for a woman to be on the front of a lads mag completely topless so long as her nipples are covered, even if it's just duct tape.

As long as breasts continue to be sexualised, there will be the stigma of breastfeeding. No one has issues when a child is bottlefed, so the act of feeding a child is fine.

As for age, IMO, when a child has weaned on to solids, there is no reason to continue breastfeeding. I've known of two adults who were (not exclusively) breastfed until around 6-7 years of age. I'd have thought that once a child starts teething, it would be uncomfortable for the mother to breast feed when there's teeth in the way but no idea how true this is.

 

[Headless Lois]

Anna, whether drinking from the source or not, I still don't understand why drinking milk intended by nature for another mammal is socially accepted right throughout life, but human milk isn't. I'm certainly not suggesting breastfeeding until death of an average life expectancy, just that I don't understand.

I literally don't understand what you mean. As far as I am concerned, breastfeeding is perfectly normal and natural, and I am all in favour of people being confronted with it visually, and accepting that it can happen in public, and that's entirely fine.
It disturbs me greatly that mothers at our studio will ask if it is ok to breastfeed, because they shouldn't feel they have to ask.
How an image of a woman breastfeeding a different animal is going to in any way help is quite a long way beyond me. It would surely only offend, and from there make people question the nature of an exhibition and actually turn people off the entire subject?

 

[Headless Lois]

IMO breastfeeding in public largely comes down to one issue: sexualisation of the breast. It is somehow acceptable for a woman to be on the front of a lads mag completely topless so long as her nipples are covered, even if it's just duct tape.

As long as breasts continue to be sexualised, there will be the stigma of breastfeeding. No one has issues when a child is bottlefed, so the act of feeding a child is fine.

Quite
http://www.craig-norton.com/the-best-defence-for-breastfeeding-in-public/

 

[Yv]

I literally don't understand what you mean. As far as I am concerned, breastfeeding is perfectly normal and natural, and I am all in favour of people being confronted with it visually, and accepting that it can happen in public, and that's entirely fine.
It disturbs me greatly that mothers at our studio will ask if it is ok to breastfeed, because they shouldn't feel they have to ask.
How an image of a woman breastfeeding a different animal is going to in any way help is quite a long way beyond me. It would surely only offend, and from there make people question the nature of an exhibition and actually turn people off the entire subject?

this!

It IS socially acceptable to drink the milk of another mammal, cow, goat, sheep, camel etc and even human breast milk is now available as a 'drink' for other humans. However, in the same way that a photo of a human suckling milk straight from the goats udder would be considered both unacceptable and a device to create offence, ditto another mammal suckling from a human. I cannot for the life of me see how this would normalise or in any way promote the natural benefits of breast feeding or make anyone more comfortable about the whole concept of breast feeding in public, whether that is the feeder or the onlooker.

 

[Sparkles33]

I've no particular brief for Poah , indeed he and I don't see eye to eye on numerous subjects and I once got a serious telling off for calling him a troll - but, I have to be honest I haven't seen him say that here at all - indeed he seems to have been saying something quite different





On this subject I pretty much agree with poah - breast feeding babies is normal and healthy - breast feeding toddlers is not (unless you live in a poverty stricken society where breast milk is the only suitable food available) , Breast feeding livestock (especially in tandem with children) is distinctly not.

You quoted him saying "a new born's immune system is not fully developed and the mothers antibodies disappear after about 2 weeks" That's misinformation. Googling "Antibodies in breastmilk after 6 months" brings over 300,000 results. At around 6 months, the maternal antibodies from the placenta deminish but antibodies, stem cells etc etc remain in breast milk.

IMO breastfeeding in public largely comes down to one issue: sexualisation of the breast. It is somehow acceptable for a woman to be on the front of a lads mag completely topless so long as her nipples are covered, even if it's just duct tape.

As long as breasts continue to be sexualised, there will be the stigma of breastfeeding. No one has issues when a child is bottlefed, so the act of feeding a child is fine.

As for age, IMO, when a child has weaned on to solids, there is no reason to continue breastfeeding. I've known of two adults who were (not exclusively) breastfed until around 6-7 years of age. I'd have thought that once a child starts teething, it would be uncomfortable for the mother to breast feed when there's teeth in the way but no idea how true this is.

The tongue tends to protect the nipple - when a child latches on, their tongue wraps around the nipple. Teething can be uncomfortable as the baby is getting used to the new shape of their mouth, but I admit, I've never heard of women getting bitten a lot - a few tines accidentally, but never more than. I agree, I think sexualisation in our culture is a massive part of acceptance.

I literally don't understand what you mean. As far as I am concerned, breastfeeding is perfectly normal and natural, and I am all in favour of people being confronted with it visually, and accepting that it can happen in public, and that's entirely fine.
It disturbs me greatly that mothers at our studio will ask if it is ok to breastfeed, because they shouldn't feel they have to ask.
How an image of a woman breastfeeding a different animal is going to in any way help is quite a long way beyond me. It would surely only offend, and from there make people question the nature of an exhibition and actually turn people off the entire subject?

As (I hope after this long, guys) you know, I'm pants with words, so please bear with me. Hopefully I'll be able to explain better than I have.

It's commonly accepted that many humans drink milk from cows and goats, throughout their lives in our culture. The milk that they're drinking is designed by nature for the offspring of the animal in question - ie cow for a calf. The reactions that seem most common about breastfeeding, is that it's fine to feed a tiny baby, but they should switch to milk intended for another mammal at some point. What I sincerely don't understand, is why. I don't understand the opinion of switching to another mammals milk. Human milk is designed for humans. Cows milk is designed for cows. Goats milk is designed for goats. Etc. I don't understand the desire to switch over to another milk, especially when everything that a child needs is in the human milk and a humans needs differ to that of a calf, - cows milk has everything in that a calf needs.

The reason that I considered posting the image is that people are so used to seeing others drink cows/goats milk, it's become normal. If the coin is flipped and another mammal is drinking human milk, people (see Marcels reaction, it's a perfect example! ) they recoil in disgust/fear etc. It's not seen. It's not spoken about. It's taboo! While looking at more controversial images in a similar vain, I stumbled across a womans mag article, with an image of a woman breastfeeding her pug and the headline "I bottle fed my children but I breastfeed my pug" or words to that effect. It's taboo. It's not commonplace. It's not "normal". (I hate that word!) People cringe at the concept of breast milk ice cream or breast milk yoghurt.

Which then brings me onto normalising "extended breastfeeding" - ie, breastfeeding beyond 2 years ( http://voices.yahoo.com/happy-healthy-baby-benefits-extended-breastfeeding-259621.html ), although I'm using the term very loosely and meaning anything beyond 6 months to be honest! People don't see it, formula was the norm locally for many generations and still is. Breastfeeding young babies is more accepted now, but in the 80's people were more taken aback if they knew a woman was breastfeeding their baby, in this area. In fact, I've had people express their displeasure before she was even born! :thumbsdown: As more women have breastfed locally, a few feeds, a few weeks, a few months, a year even, it's become more socially accepted. People will discuss it, some may see it (not meaning nursing in public - think visiting family or friends, especially near bedtime for older nursing children) people become aware that it actually happens. This then makes it less taboo over extended periods of time. 200 years ago, it would've been an alien concept to see a woman pushing her toddler down the street in a push chair, while the child was "having a bottle".