Breastfeeding Debate

Sparkles33

Sparkles33

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OK, a bit of a story before we get things going.

This thread is to follow on from the comments of the nursing thread in nudes and glamour. I'm participating in a local art exhibition with the aim being to normalise breastfeeding within the area, as the area is a highly formula feeding area. The project involves real mothers and children and is supposed to avoid glamorising breastfeeding. Real expressions, real wobbly bits, real children style. I've posted a couple of the throw away images on the thread, although I the first image I still received the response that I desired, it wasn't chosen for the exhibition.

So, lifted from the thread

Ok, since most of the comments are nothing to do with photography then and simply peoples perceptions of simply stating these children are too old to breastfeed, how old should they have been breastfed til and why? WHO guidelines say 2+ years and the average age to stop is actually over 4 years.
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So what is it you wish to discuss, is it the age of the children? or the images being posted on the internet?

If the age, I would certainly say them ''children'' are too old in my opinion, I say ''children'' as I think they are not ''babies'' due to their size in relation to the parent, they are not being held in the parents arms because quite simply they are too big to be held and nurtured in that way which to me is too old to feed like that.

I think once they are teething and have their first tooth break through the gum I would think it natural to stop feed in that way, to me it is laziness of the parent to let it to continue any longer than need be, i'e when they have teeth they can start to bite and start to chew long before that.
 
Who were most of the comments made by

H
 
Ivan S said:
So what is it you wish to discuss, is it the age of the children? or the images being posted on the internet?

If the age, I would certainly say them ''children'' are too old in my opinion, I say ''children'' as I think they are not ''babies'' due to their size in relation to the parent, they are not being held in the parents arms because quite simply they are too big to be held and nurtured in that way which to me is too old to feed like that.

I think once they are teething and have their first tooth break through the gum I would think it natural to stop feed in that way, to me it is laziness of the parent to let it to continue any longer than need be, i'e when they have teeth they can start to bite and start to chew long before that.
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Hmm not saying you are right or wrong but

As to how old someone has to be to do ... A sixteen year old can legally have sex but can't buy cigs or alcohol till 18 so it follows if you have teeth you should not breast feed, if your body is ready you should have sex :thinking: :suspect: :shrug:

I'm happy to have laws to protect but I'm against people saying you can't do this or that just Cos innit

Children's teeth are called milk teeth go figure
H
 
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Hell on Earth, there's various comments from various members.

Ivan, it's the age of when a child should be breastfed that I want to discuss. ;) With regards to teeth, - a child loses it's latch around the time that adult teeth make an appearance.

What bewilders me, to be frank, is why it's more acceptable for a 50 year old to drink mammary fluid meant for another species, but breastfeeding a 2 year old provokes negative reactions.
 
Hell on earth said:
Hmm not saying you are right or wrong but

As to how old someone has to be to do ... A sixteen year old can legally have sex but can't buy cigs or alcohol till 18 so it follows if you have teeth you should not breast feed, if your body is ready you should have sex :thinking: :suspect: :shrug:

I'm happy to have laws to protect but I'm against people saying you can't do this or that just Cos innit

Children's teeth are called milk teeth go figure
H
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It's just my opinion on it, teeth serve a purpose and that is to chew food, I suppose it's my logic on that and nothing else, I am not saying people can't do this and that, it's entirely up to them, but if it were my child they would certainly not be being feed in that way as soon as they had teeth.
MagicMynx said:
Hell on Earth, there's various comments from various members.

Ivan, it's the age of when a child should be breastfed that I want to discuss. ;) With regards to teeth, - a child loses it's latch around the time that adult teeth make an appearance.

What bewilders me, to be frank, is why it's more acceptable for a 50 year old to drink mammary fluid meant for another species, but breastfeeding a 2 year old provokes negative reactions.
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I think it's the personal aspect to it, it's a very very personal thing is it not?

I was going to say, it is not something to take photo's of, but I think maybe it's ok to take photo's of but they should be for the family album, not on a online forum.:shrug:
 
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Ivan S said:
It's just my opinion on it, teeth serve a purpose and that is to chew food, I suppose it's my logic on that and nothing else, I am not saying people can't do this and that, it's entirely up to them, but if it were my child they would certainly not be being feed in that way as soon as they had teeth.


I think it's the personal aspect to it, it's a very very personal thing is it not?

I was going to say, it is not something to take photo's off, but I think maybe it's ok to take photo's off but they should be for the family album, not on a online forum.:shrug:
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Are you offended by such photos being on display

H
 
Ivan S said:
It's just my opinion on it, teeth serve a purpose and that is to chew food, I suppose it's my logic on that and nothing else, I am not saying people can't do this and that, it's entirely up to them, but if it were my child they would certainly not be being feed in that way as soon as they had teeth.


I think it's the personal aspect to it, it's a very very personal thing is it not?

I was going to say, it is not something to take photo's off, but I think maybe it's ok to take photo's off but they should be for the family album, not on a online forum.:shrug:
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That's an interesting opinion. Would I be right in assuming that your opinion is the same for bottle fed children, that as soon as they have teeth, they no longer need bottles?

I agree, the length of a breastfeeding journey is personal and whatever is best for the family unit, particularly the mother and child.

Why shouldn't images of breastfeeding be shared? Surely hiding them just adds to the taboo? Locally, anyway, breastfeeding isn't too uncommon (though formula feeding is massively more popular), but it seems to be hidden as soon as a child is on solid foods. Partly because frequency sometimes decreases and partly because some women have mastered a discreet art to breastfeeding, particularly in public.

Just interested in differing opinions...I find it quite interesting.
 
Stop whenever you want - but what do you think the maximum age should be?

WHO organisation guidelines are also based around countries where a high proportion of children would not get formula \ milk if they stopped breastfeeding.(edit meant to add I assume)

Personally for us around 1 was good. Makes family life easier with no adverse effect on our child.

As a parent certainly one thing you need is not to worry about what other people think :)
 
akr said:
Stop whenever you want - but what do you think the maximum age should be?

WHO organisation guidelines are also based around countries where a high proportion of children would not get formula \ milk if they stopped breastfeeding.(edit meant to add I assume)

Personally for us around 1 was good. Makes family life easier with no adverse effect on our child.

As a parent certainly one thing you need is not to worry about what other people think :)
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My personal opinion, is that so long as there's no need to stop and mum is happy, that if it works for the family unit, self weaning should be encouraged in those that wish to follow that route. I also think that many breastfeeding journeys end prematurely because of lack of support.

A friend of mine only wanted to feed until her milk came in properly, so that the child got the benefits of colostrum (which she did successfully :D awesomeness) and I've heard stories of children self-weaning from a few months old to 5 years old.

The childs mouth will change shape eventually and they won't be able to latch properly, so it's not as if anyone would still be nursing a 13 year old. lol. There are a lot of benefits to breastfeeding anyway, if a woman breastfeeds for a total of 2 years out of her life, it reduces the chances of several cancers by more than a fifth. (google brings up plenty refs).

Worrying about what other people think - you're spot on. All that parents can do is what they feel is best for their family. :)
 
I honestly cant believe how much fuss is being made over this.

Both my daughters were breast fed, the youngest until she was about one ,as she was killing my wife with the amount she wanted.
My oldest was breast fed until she was nearly two ,yes at this point we did think that she was getting a bit to old for it by then and she had plenty of teeth. BUT under the circumstance it was needed in our eyes as she has a intolerance to milk/eggs and the soya powder milk does not have the nutrients she needed.

I dont think anyone has the right to say when you should stop breast feeding your own child. Whats wright for them may not be for you.To a point that is.

On the other hand I did find it slightly disturbing in the channel 4 program, when older children were still being breast fed, heck even grown men pay for breast milk...each to there own..i thought it tasted rather disgusting.

Over all I think we are not to bad in this country, my wife's chinese and it was near looked down upon when she had our first 5 years ago, she felt very awkward feeding when we were on holiday.. men would happily just stare.
How ever it seems to be coming more popular again i think mainly due to the powder milk poisoning.
 
pmac said:
I honestly cant believe how much fuss is being made over this.

Both my daughters were breast fed, the youngest until she was about one ,as she was killing my wife with the amount she wanted.
My oldest was breast fed until she was nearly two ,yes at this point we did think that she was getting a bit to old for it by then and she had plenty of teeth. BUT under the circumstance it was needed in our eyes as she has a intolerance to milk/eggs and the soya powder milk does not have the nutrients she needed.

I dont think anyone has the right to say when you should stop breast feeding your own child. Whats wright for them may not be for you.To a point that is.

On the other hand I did find it slightly disturbing in the channel 4 program, when older children were still being breast fed, heck even grown men pay for breast milk...each to there own..i thought it tasted rather disgusting.

Over all I think we are not to bad in this country, my wife's chinese and it was near looked down upon when she had our first 5 years ago, she felt very awkward feeding when we were on holiday.. men would happily just stare.
How ever it seems to be coming more popular again i think mainly due to the powder milk poisoning.
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:)

Food intolerances are a nightmare, aren't they? I admit that I've heard a lot of people say they found it difficult around the first birthday mark...and hold my hands up to admit I'm one of them.
 
MagicMynx said:
What bewilders me, to be frank, is why it's more acceptable for a 50 year old to drink mammary fluid meant for another species, but breastfeeding a 2 year old provokes negative reactions.
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Take it that comment refers to cow's or goat's milk, not normally drunk straight from the animal :shrug:

My personal view on age to stop breast feeding is it's up to the mother, but an older child should be on solids and other fluids as well so no real need to do it in public.

I fed my babies in public but without turning it into a peep show, I had consideration for others and never ever got challenged in any location, well except at my ex partners house when his mother would insist I went into and cold unheated room to sit on an uncomfortable chair, needless to say visits were rare.

This could be difficult with an older child and ok so we have rights but so do other members of the public.
 
I breast fed both my bratts. and they had teeth at 3 months... my son i fed till 6 months my daughter 12 months.. i was/am to lazy for the bottle lark and it is so expensive. i can uo against allot of negative attitudes when i was feeding..

surely it is up to the parent and child to decide when to stop????
 
I have a feeding cover because I personally think it's a private time between me and my daughter. In terms of age, I want to get to a year but it's a struggle with her reflux. It's up to parents to decide when to end.

I think when babies are first born people don't see the cost of formula as they don't consume much but it gets so expensive when they are feeding a lot. For that reason I can't understand not breastfeeding and it's another reason I'm torturing myself over her reflux.
 
I think it's a shame there were so many derogatory (is that too strong) comments on the original thread which took away from the photography. Have you considered using the comments from that thread and this in the exhibition?

For me I find it a natural process. At which point do you stop, at the point the mother and child decide, Most mums stop due to returning to work, or through social pressures. The world Heath organisation recommends to two years and beyond

I don't find it offensive with mums breast feeding in public, it's not there's anything offensive to be seen. You see more flesh on any newspaper stand in free view.
 
For me, it's not so much derogatory but ignorant of other peoples views. I finally read the thread in question as I saw this thread while up feeding my daughter of 11 weeks. To some that's perfectly normal, others sadly have an issue with it. If I said what I really think of some of those comments then i'd probably be given a 24 hour holiday.

Good idea about using some of the comments in the exhibition though.
 
My wife loved the bond that breast feeding gave her and our daughter but had to stop when she went back to work at 5 months.

She simply couldn't express enough to bottle so that childcare could feed her during the day.

Putting our daughter onto the bottle however allowed much more flexibility in our life and put less demand on our spare time.
 
Wow. Such a contrast in comments compared to the original thread.

I hadn't thought of using peoples comments in the exhibition, although to be fair, I doubt we will be short of similar comments.

I admit that I'll probably be a bit gutted, but no publicity is bad publicity, so as long as people are talking, we've filled the brief that we set for ourselves. ;)

Julie, I'm sure you'll get there. Do you have plenty of support - maybe a support group? I found the group that I go to invaluable when the going got tough. (She had a tongue tie until she was 4 months old, so I was expressing for 4 hours a day too, for her top Ups - she also has a lot of food allergies, so diet changes for me too.)
 
Ok, so your aim: I'm participating in a local art exhibition with the aim being to normalise breastfeeding within the area, as the area is a highly formula feeding area.

It's obviously something you feel strongly about so there's many avenues to explore. There's been some well known campaigns about breastfeeding in public, probably with some additional image suggestions for you to try. I'd explore the comments, especially some of the stronger ones, as some of the reasons why mums may be put off.

Good luck with the exhibition
 
What about exploring the reasons why people breastfeed which for me is:

Health benefits for her (hubs and son had a horrendous cold which she didn't catch)
Cost of formula
Easy night feeds, you get up, whip one out and no hassle with arranging a bottle
I'm not sure how you'd cover it photographically but the weight loss element is a big pro for me although it's slower with sprog number 2.

With feeding a 2 year old +, you're always going to struggle to satisfy the haters.
 
Oooo, I like these ideas, Julie!

The health benefits and convenience part are the reasons that I've heard most often. I admit that I've left the house and forgot absolutely everything that I could have forgotten, while taking the baby out...never forgot the milk though! ;)

The weight loss is a really interesting subject though and no one forewarns you about the moodswings! lol
 
When all my teeth fall out (or get knocked out) I'm gonna start breast feeding again. The end!!:cool:
 
It's a fair counter argument to stopping when teeth appear.

I find the teeth argument as silly as "never hug a child, they might nip" however that's on the understanding that a person understands latch (which not everyone does). When a child latches onto a breast, their tongue wraps around the nipple, protecting from sharp, little teeth. Inevitable the occasional bite happens, like a nip when hugging, but they're probably a fair comparison.
 
MagicMynx said:
What bewilders me, to be frank, is why it's more acceptable for a 50 year old to drink mammary fluid meant for another species, but breastfeeding a 2 year old provokes negative reactions.
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TBF if I saw a 50 year old suckling a cow I would have one or two questions :lol:

our boys were breast fed till around 18 months. at that point it was one small suckle at night before bed. Some of this is to do with the mother wanting to hold on to the children being baby's (same reason they want to dress them in cute clothes, not cut their hair etc etc) breast feeding should slow down once they start on solids. There is no metabolic or immune reason why children should be breast fed over 9-12 months.

nothing illegal about a 4 year old breast feeding just there is nothing illegal about me walking about in a pair of speedos but it just isn't done for a reason :(

the bigger question should be why the hell would you want to feed your own child on formula milk.
 
I don't have kids but tend to figure that WHO have probably done a lot more research than I ever could, and therefore they are probably correct.
I do think it's sad that many mothers are not comfortable breastfeeding in public - the more they do it, the more the public perception will shift, and the more natural it will seem to whatever age (eg 4 if that is average)
 
well our twins are 2 weeks over 1 and still breastfeeding but down to about 5.30am, 8am and then 7pm... all for short periods... I would expect them to self wean by xmas.
 
Can I ask why you have not used smaller children in the first place, as I'm quite sure using obviously older children that are at or near pre school age will invoke a bad reaction from most if not all viewers except parents that have breast feed there children to that age, why not just use babies? if this is to promote breast feeding, this seems a strange way to do it.
 
POAH said:
nothing illegal about a 4 year old breast feeding just there is nothing illegal about me walking about in a pair of speedos but it just isn't done for a reason :(
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What's the reason then? :thinking:
 
Ivan S said:
Can I ask why you have not used smaller children in the first place, as I'm quite sure using obviously older children that are at or near pre school age will invoke a bad reaction from most if not all viewers except parents that have breast feed there children to that age, why not just use babies? if this is to promote breast feeding, this seems a strange way to do it.
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Partly availability and partly to normalise breastfeeding. Just because older children aren't fed in public often and it doesn't get discussed often, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. The UK has the shortest average length of breastfeeding (sorry words are dodgy tonight so hope I'm somewhat coherent!) in the world and a common perception as to why, is lack of support - a biproduct of generations of formula feeding and peer pressure from formula feeding parents. Whether it's truly the reason, I have no idea, but my that's also my gut feeling. The average age to stop breastfeeding is 4 years old and in UK it seems less common to see a child over say 4 months old, breastfeeding. To normalise breastfeeding within the community, it has to be seen. If you only know formula feeding, the first time you see a toddler or older child breastfeeding can be a little alarming - no matter how broad minded you are. I know my jaw dropped a little! Lol
 
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My wife breast fed our little one until around 18 months old . It was her choice to stop as she was finding it hard to juggle home life with work . I supported her all the way , and would never have forced her to stop the feeding . It everyone's right to have a choice and who are we to judge others . If my wife wanted to still be feeding I would have supported her and stood be that choice . We were told by a health visitor that we could breast feed for as long as we wanted and that there was no right or wrong time to stop . I think that opinions are slowly changing but people sadly will always still judge .
 
MagicMynx said:
Would you like to back any of that about no immuno/metobolic argument up, counteracting the like of say, WHO, LLL, NCT etc?
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a new born's immune system is not fully developed and the mothers antibodies disappear after about 2 weeks. Breast feeding keeps this up - they get their first round of immunisation at 2 months. babies don't need anything else other than breast milk for the first 6 months then they can get weaned off it. pretty sure that's not contradicting the WHO :shrug:


at 12 months babys should be getting all the nutrients from solids and their immune system should have developed and they will have been immunised against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, Haemophilus influenzae type b, pneumococcal infections, meningitis C, measles, mumps, rubella and rotavirus. Hence not needing mothers milk
 
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Wait what ?

There seems to be two issues here being pursued as one, as though if you feel one way about breast feeding age you'd feel similarly sympathetic about breast feeding in public.
They are completely separate issues.
 
POAH said:
a new born's immune system is not fully developed and the mothers antibodies disappear after about 2 weeks. Breast feeding keeps this up - they get their first round of immunisation at 2 months. babies don't need anything else other than breast milk for the first 6 months then they can get weaned off it. pretty sure that's not contradicting the WHO :shrug:


at 12 months babys should be getting all the nutrients from solids and their immune system should have developed and they will have been immunised against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, Haemophilus influenzae type b, pneumococcal infections, meningitis C, measles, mumps, rubella and rotavirus. Hence not needing mothers milk
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again, another opinion - where's your source please? That contradicts NCT, LLL and WHO. What source states these "facts" please?
 
joxby said:
Wait what ?

There seems to be two issues here being pursued as one, as though if you feel one way about breast feeding age you'd feel similarly sympathetic about breast feeding in public.
They are completely separate issues.
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No...nursing in public isn't really a seperate issue. If people don't see/discuss breastfeeding, it becomes taboo. Nursing toddlers in public is less common than a newborn. However, family and friends may be aware of an older child feeding, may occassionally see it even, thus becoming less taboo and more normalised, that's the context nursing in public was referenced.
 
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MagicMynx said:
[..]
... and peer pressure from formula feeding parents.

[..]
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Actually the exact reverse is often the case. Pressure from the breast feeding fraternity who try to make those who don't wish, or cannot breast feed feel guilty, has been our experience.

Our two were never breast fed and we both had a hand with the bottles. A great experience indeed. They are now 40 and 41 and are now and have always been in good health.

Oh, and I have absolutely no problem at all with children being breast fed in public.

Anthony.
 
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