Breast feeding (please don't enter if you cannot act like a grown up)

big soft moose said:
indeed - a premises owner can make any rule they like within the law - so no dogs, no bikers is an acceptable position , but no blacks, no irish isn't

the racism metaphor might be more comparable with forbidding babies from the premises entirely - but saying no breast feeding really isn't the same thing , as its about an optional behaviour not an inherent characteristic.
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No of course not, breast feeding babies is not an inherent characteristic!
 
jakeblu said:
You start a thread asking for adult responses and then present a childish argument.

My wife breast fed all our 4 children, what can I say it saved me a fortune and meant I didn't have to get up during the night.

I have no problem with breast feeding in public, my wife used to do it discreetly. She wasn't over keen getting her boobs out in front of strangers but needs be then needs must. I also have no problems with militant protest it brings the subject to the attention of the public and that is most likely to effect a change, and personally I would be minded to boycott any establishment that had such a ban and would welcome the militancy that brought it to my attention.

Steve
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Seriously how many times does it have to be said, nowhere I repeat NOWHERE have I said breast feeding shouldn't be allowed it's a freedom of choice to breast feed, at the same time however you cannot exercise a lawful freedom while denying another individual or business it's lawful freedoms to conduct there life or business how they see fit without threats or intimidation which is what to me some recent protests have effectively amounted to

I honestly would like to know how you think it's childish to openly discuss such an issue...remember the issues is not breast feeding or even public breast feeding
 
bindex said:
I haven't noticed any militant breast feeding campaign at all, however as a 60 odd year old bloke maybe I wouldn't. We have two children, my wife tried breast feeding but for whatever reason it didn't work out. Breast feeding has been around since the dawn of mankind, It's not offensive or sexual, just a natural function. As far as I'm concerned it's part of life, no big deal...
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Bill, I'm not saying its sexual, I'm not saying its offensive, nobody on here is saying that as far as I'm aware in fact as far as I'm concerned the act of breast feeding is not the actually subject per se
 
Are these militant protests somewhere specific, or is this a general issue? I'm not aware of any in my local area, nor have I seen much about it in the press. Is this something from mums net?
 
being a father. I believe there are certain standards when feeding in public.
my wife always wore a throw or loose fitting top. Baby would go under said top and feed. No one saw anything and unless you were paying undue attention prob wouldn't even notice.
Its about considering others and not walking through life with a high degree of self importance.
 
MWHCVT said:
Bill, I'm not saying its sexual, I'm not saying its offensive, nobody on here is saying that as far as I'm aware in fact as far as I'm concerned the act of breast feeding is not the actually subject per se
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So there's absolutely nothing wrong with breast feeding. Nothing at all in your eyes. It's perfectly fine and normal.

So under what reason would a business have to want to ban it?
 
I've no problem with breast-feeding. The Mumsnet brigade however.....sheesh.
 
big soft moose said:
- no ice creams in the shop, ties must be worn, no crash helmets inside, no more than four school children in the shop at one time, no photography on the premises...
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All of these can be backed up with a valid reason for not wanting it

Ice creams - can be spilt and ruin products
4 children - helps shopkeeper keep an eye on them for shoplifting
No Helmets - allows security camera to see faces in case of crime etc

What would be a reason to not allow breast feeding?
 
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MWHCVT said:
Seriously how many times does it have to be said, nowhere I repeat NOWHERE have I said breast feeding shouldn't be allowed it's a freedom of choice to breast feed, at the same time however you cannot exercise a lawful freedom while denying another individual or business it's lawful freedoms to conduct there life or business how they see fit without threats or intimidation which is what to me some recent protests have effectively amounted to

I honestly would like to know how you think it's childish to openly discuss such an issue...remember the issues is not breast feeding or even public breast feeding
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You've produced an ill conceived and poorly thought out argument. On the one hand you say there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public but on the other you support those establishments that ban it. Do you not see the contradiction in that. If there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding why need it be banned? And if you were banning a perfectly natural, nurturing act then why would you object if people protested against that? I'm sorry Matt your argument makes no sense, to me at least, and I'm beginning to think you've posted purely in an attempt to be controversial

Steve
 
I'm fairly sure that if someone is breastfeeding in public, and you are offended by it, the easiest thing would be to not look.
But of course, it's a breast, and if you're a man.........:rolleyes:
 
jakeblu said:
You've produced an ill conceived and poorly thought out argument. On the one hand you say there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public but on the other you support those establishments that ban it. Do you not see the contradiction in that. If there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding why need it be banned? And if you were banning a perfectly natural, nurturing act then why would you object if people protested against that? I'm sorry Matt your argument makes no sense, to me at least, and I'm beginning to think you've posted purely in an attempt to be controversial

Steve
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This x10000
 
ignore :)
 
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OK folks, lets establish a few things here - the question being asked is whether the vehement 'flashmob' style protests about the occasional establishment that puts its foot down on breast feeding [not literally I hope, sounds painful] are warranted and I guess as an addition to that, is there a better way of educating and/or giving people choice? It NOT whether breast feeding in public per se is acceptable - I think we have established that most people in here think it is, even if you think that by someone objecting the protests, they are siding with those that object to public feeding. So, in order to keep this thread open, and have a healthy debate, lets try and keep it along those lines and not wonder off into sexist or personal digs.

There have indeed been 'incidents' in recent years where a shopping centre or specific shop/cafe, whatever, has been mobbed by people protesting, usually very localised, and tbh, not very well publicised either, if they make the press at all it is normally only local papers. I have seen them pop up on my fb or twitter timelines from time to time, which is how I know about them. So, if you haven't come across them, they are happening, but so far on a very local scale. Just for info really.
 
Yv said:
OK folks, lets establish a few things here - the question being asked is whether the vehement 'flashmob' style protests about the occasional establishment that puts its foot down on breast feeding [not literally I hope, sounds painful] are warranted and I guess as an addition to that, is there a better way of educating and/or giving people choice? It NOT whether breast feeding in public per se is acceptable - I think we have established that most people in here think it is, even if you think that by someone objecting the protests, they are siding with those that object to public feeding. So, in order to keep this thread open, and have a healthy debate, lets try and keep it along those lines and not wonder off into sexist or personal digs.

There have indeed been 'incidents' in recent years where a shopping centre or specific shop/cafe, whatever, has been mobbed by people protesting, usually very localised, and tbh, not very well publicised either, if they make the press at all it is normally only local papers. I have seen them pop up on my fb or twitter timelines from time to time, which is how I know about them. So, if you haven't come across them, they are happening, but so far on a very local scale. Just for info really.
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Thanks Yvonne this is exactly correct lets hope things can stay on topic now :)
 
I've noticed the rise in protesting against places because of breastfeeding. I wonder whether it is the same group of people who look down on mothers who do not breastfeed and make them feel inferior. I've seen mothers who have been brought to the brink of suicide because they've been made to feel like they're unfit purely because they tried and did not get on with breastfeeding, or there were genuine medical problems.

I agree with the phrase "mumsnet brigade" and equate them with the usual "daily mail" readers.
 
I breastfed both of my little bratts and have been asked not to in some places easy i didn't go back to those places. as for this new style of protest i think it is wrong to be honest. There was one that was meant o happen here in Inverness in the shopping center it didn't go ahead (no idea why). I don't think it will have helped here as the place is so small and it is a small issue lets be honest it isn't as if it is a ban the bomb protest.
I don't think that it is ever going to stop happening no matter how much education you try and give out to the public. i was very well covered up i am not one for showing my bits off. but it was the older generation that complained when i fed my eldest and that was at the Gateshead metro center food court but it was 20 odd years ago. When in a Cafe with my daughter i was asked to stop as a man had said he didn't like it...i was offered the ladies loo to feed in.. i will say that i did ask if they had offered him the gents to eat his lunch in... " NO that is disgusting" was the answer. i just left ( i had just finished feeding) i never went back. That was Aldershot funny when i was breastfeeding in Mcdonalds and a group of para's walked in it was my husband that told me to stop...

So to sum up not i do not agree with this flash mob style of protest... not just for this either.
 
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jakeblu said:
You've produced an ill conceived and poorly thought out argument. On the one hand you say there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding in public but on the other you support those establishments that ban it. Do you not see the contradiction in that. If there is nothing wrong with breastfeeding why need it be banned? And if you were banning a perfectly natural, nurturing act then why would you object if people protested against that? I'm sorry Matt your argument makes no sense, to me at least, and I'm beginning to think you've posted purely in an attempt to be controversial

Steve
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This post is very much on topic.

How can you be for breast feeding but not ok when people campaign aggressively against those who ban it?
 
Yv said:
There have indeed been 'incidents' in recent years where a shopping centre or specific shop/cafe, whatever, has been mobbed by people protesting, usually very localised, and tbh, not very well publicised either, if they make the press at all it is normally only local papers. I have seen them pop up on my fb or twitter timelines from time to time, which is how I know about them. So, if you haven't come across them, they are happening, but so far on a very local scale. Just for info really.
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Ah Social Media. That explains it. I do my social networking down the pub.
 
CanonDjango said:
This post is very much on topic.

How can you be for breast feeding but not ok when people campaign aggressively against those who ban it?
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Why are you determined to drag this off topic over and over, I'm not okay with any aggressive protest no matter how just the cause
 
Yv said:
OK folks, lets establish a few things here - the question being asked is whether the vehement 'flashmob' style protests about the occasional establishment that puts its foot down on breast feeding [not literally I hope, sounds painful] are warranted and I guess as an addition to that, is there a better way of educating and/or giving people choice? It NOT whether breast feeding in public per se is acceptable - I think we have established that most people in here think it is, even if you think that by someone objecting the protests, they are siding with those that object to public feeding. So, in order to keep this thread open, and have a healthy debate, lets try and keep it along those lines and not wonder off into sexist or personal digs.

There have indeed been 'incidents' in recent years where a shopping centre or specific shop/cafe, whatever, has been mobbed by people protesting, usually very localised, and tbh, not very well publicised either, if they make the press at all it is normally only local papers. I have seen them pop up on my fb or twitter timelines from time to time, which is how I know about them. So, if you haven't come across them, they are happening, but so far on a very local scale. Just for info really.
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With all respect Yvonne you're comments are unhelpful. I find it strange that people on here argue that breastfeeding is ok in public but do not condemn those who ban it in their establishments. To accept a ban is in fact accepting there may be issues with breastfeeding in public. Separating the two I believe is a false dichotomy, they both go hand in hand.
MWHCVT said:
Thanks Yvonne this is exactly correct lets hope things can stay on topic now :)
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I feel that all my posts have been on topic. The two issues go hand in hand you cannot separate one from the other to believe banning is acceptable is to agree that there is a problem with breastfeeding in public. Further, to argue that the protest is over the top is to place the blame on the protestors rather than the those who implement the ban. I suppose the suffragettes suffered the same, just look at the extreme methods they used. You are trying to restrict the debate to a small area of discussion rather than the larger, can of worms, your first post has opened. Whilst not wishing to be personal I cant help but feel the post does in fact reflect your own prejudices despite your denials


Steve
 
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On reflection I think that the last two lines may be seen as a personal attack on Matt and I apologise if that's how they have come across because that was not my intention.

Steve
 
If it involves people of mumsnet then they are wrong, no matter what the cause is. They have the ability to turn an issue into a farce which cannot be taken seriously and devalues any argument they put forward.

Breast feeding is allowed, should be allowed and should be supported/promoted. If a shop has an issue with it then it should be dealt with sensibly and not with a protest which gives breast feeding a little bit of a negative image.
 
As far as I understood it's against the law (Equality act 2010) for anyone providing services/benefits/facilities to the public to ask a woman to stop breastfeeding. So my interpretation is that if my wife’s out in a shop etc she can feed the baby without issues (2nd child 8 weeks and does nothing but feed! Mine you she isn’t one to show a lot but sometime bit do get out).

But back to the original question, I can see where they are coming from, it can be very intimidating for women particularly if it’s their first to breastfeed in public. I doubt I’d take part in anything like a demo but if someone asked my wife to leave I’d not be very happy and they would know it.

(In Scotland it's a criminal offence to try and stop or prevent a woman feeding her baby, so I guess if that happened in England then there wouldn't be the protests )
 
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choppie said:
As far as I understood it's against the law (Equality act 2010) for anyone providing services/benefits/facilities to the public to ask a woman to stop breastfeeding. So my interpretation is that if my wife’s out in a shop etc she can feed the baby without issues (2nd child 8 weeks and does nothing but feed! Mine you she isn’t one to show a lot but sometime bit do get out).
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I have to say I was previously unaware of that legislation and it does indeed say that a woman cannot be treated unfavourably because she is breast feeding - which negates my previous point a shop, cafe etc cannot in fact legally make a rule that bans breast feeding on its premises (technically discrimination only occurs if its within 26 weeks of birth - so a café could legitimately prohibit the breast feeding of toddlers etc if it wanted to) - they may be able to restrict it to certain areas if they could demonstrate that service and facilities in those areas were equal to that in the prohibited areas - but its hard to imagine that many would go to those lengths.

Also they can reasonably ask that it is done in a way that doesn't offend other patrons - as that in itself is not unfavourable treatment

That not withstanding the way to deal with discrimination under the equality act is through formal channels, not by mass hysterical protest, which was the real point of this thread - the militant 'lets take the law into our own hands ' brigade are very rarely justified whatever their cause and generally do more harm than good to the credibility of whatever they are protesting about
 
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I can't quite believe that it's even a topic for discussion. Somewhere down the line we seem to have forgotten that down at the bottom of it all we are still mammals and we have natural processes for things. What is so f*cking offensive about being human? It doesn't make you a better person for ignoring your primitive nature as an animal.
 
jakeblu said:
With all respect Yvonne you're comments are unhelpful. I find it strange that people on here argue that breastfeeding is ok in public but do not condemn those who ban it in their establishments. To accept a ban is in fact accepting there may be issues with breastfeeding in public. Separating the two I believe is a false dichotomy, they both go hand in hand.

Steve
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Steve, posted as a moderator to keep the topic where it's meant to be - you will notice I have carefully avoided expressing any opinion either way in this thread and have only added information to fill in the gaps in some of the points raised/asked about. So, you may consider it unhelpful, others don't, but either way, a necessary post.
 
Eddzz!! said:
I can't quite believe that it's even a topic for discussion. Somewhere down the line we seem to have forgotten that down at the bottom of it all we are still mammals and we have natural processes for things. What is so f*cking offensive about being human? It doesn't make you a better person for ignoring your primitive nature as an animal.
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indeed - but the topic for discussion isn't should we ban breast feeding - pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that we shouldn't - the topic at hand is " should places that ban breast feeding be subject to mob protest "
 
big soft moose said:
indeed - but the topic for discussion isn't should we ban breast feeding - pretty much everyone on this thread agrees that we shouldn't - the topic at hand is " should places that ban breast feeding be subject to mob protest "
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Sorry, it just p*sses me off that there exists an opposition to the practice in the first place :p
 
jakeblu said:
I find it strange that people on here argue that breastfeeding is ok in public but do not condemn those who ban it in their establishments.
Steve
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But surely thats down to freedom of choice?
The woman's choice whether or not too feed the offspring at that given time.
Maybe she could step outside the store / shop whatever,
and or go back to the car?

And the companies concerned, right to ask them not to do it.
Maybe its seen as health and safety issue?
Some of these places are not exactly clean.

[/ Devils advocate ]

As I said before, I have no issue with breastfeeding in public
(Yeah yeah I know :p)
Both of mine were, and in public too, sometimes.
Albeit this was well over 20 years ago
and we never came across this kind of reaction, from
either camp.

I think it's just the "normal"
"being outraged on someone else's behalf culture"
that we seem to thrive on these days.
 
norters said:
Men do lactate.
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For a little context, they can lactate...in certain circumstances.
It's rare, and (with exceptions ...even rarer) it's not spontanious.
Saying they do makes it sound like you're all at it down the pub of a Friday! :-)
 
If a venue doesn't want women breastfeeding, maybe their only choice is to ban all children under a certain age?
 
MWHCVT said:
Why are you determined to drag this off topic over and over, I'm not okay with any aggressive protest no matter how just the cause
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How is my post off topic? Your thread is about the aggressive protesting and my post was about that also.
 
jakeblu said:
With all respect Yvonne you're comments are unhelpful. I find it strange that people on here argue that breastfeeding is ok in public but do not condemn those who ban it in their establishments. To accept a ban is in fact accepting there may be issues with breastfeeding in public. Separating the two I believe is a false dichotomy, they both go hand in hand.

I feel that all my posts have been on topic. The two issues go hand in hand you cannot separate one from the other to believe banning is acceptable is to agree that there is a problem with breastfeeding in public. Further, to argue that the protest is over the top is to place the blame on the protestors rather than the those who implement the ban. I suppose the suffragettes suffered the same, just look at the extreme methods they used. You are trying to restrict the debate to a small area of discussion rather than the larger, can of worms, your first post has opened. Whilst not wishing to be personal I cant help but feel the post does in fact reflect your own prejudices despite your denials


Steve
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This. I can't really understand other takes on this topic. You've hit the nail squarely on the head
 
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