Boudoir photography - exploitation or expression?

[POAH]

so all photographs of woman are demeaning to woman and Kate smith's comment is equally as bad.

boudoir is nothing but a new name for the same photos people have been taking for years - its all commercial man.

any photograph of a woman in bra and panties can look like soft porn and particularly boudoir even when its actually done good (even more so, think playboy).

personally I think its crap like soft core porn before they take their clothes off but its not demeaning to woman.

I will start by admitting I don't like boudoir photography, and don't understand why it, and burlesque, seem to be acceptable when to me they are demeaning to women, reinforce the woman as an object view and are essentially a form of soft porn from the 1960s that is titillating but not too much to get past the censors in that era.

Then I read a passionate defence of boudoir by Kate Hopewell Smith in a magazine in response to a man on Facebook making a similar comment to me. To her boudoir photography was an intimate, empowering, positive self affirming form of expression.

Maybe boudoir can fall into both camps? Done badly is it a short step from soft porn, but done well it is everything KHS claims?

 

[Pookeyhead]

most usually it is to produce a beautiful handmade album to present to their husband/partner

I think that is the reason this genre gets accused of somehow "exploiting" women. Despite the fact that it's usually the women themselves that actually commission the work, book the session and pay for it... and often no man to be seen anywhere, the fact remains it's not for them. People argue it builds confidence, but if the only way a woman can build confidence is to portray herself as sexually available, and sexually attractive then it's just another manifestation of how women have been taught to think by a visual culture that only places value on women if they are sexually attractive. I mean... why not just give a really nice portrait for a present instead of something bordering on soft core porn?

I'm not suggesting the photographer is exploiting the woman, or the husband... or indeed any one individual. She wanted the pics taken, she paid for them, and it's no one's business but hers. That however is the reason this genre comes in for a lot of flack.

Just playing devil's advocate here BTW... in all honesty, I have no real personal opinions on this one way or the other and have no interest in the genre.

 

[RedRobin]

I think that is the reason this genre gets accused of somehow "exploiting" women. Despite the fact that it's usually the women themselves that actually commission the work, book the session and pay for it... and often no man to be seen anywhere, the fact remains it's not for them. People argue it builds confidence, but if the only way a woman can build confidence is to portray herself as sexually available, and sexually attractive then it's just another manifestation of how women have been taught to think by a visual culture that only places value on women if they are sexually attractive. I mean... why not just give a really nice portrait for a present instead of something bordering on soft core porn?

....All living species, and that includes human beings, are hardwired into using their eyes - It's not a man-made "visual culture" - It's totally natural in our genes/psyche etc. It's a fundamental and very important component in the natural propagation of ALL species.

In very basic terms, within milliseconds of first encounter, subconciously the very first questions are:

1 - Can I eat it?
2 - Can I mate with it?
3 - Will it eat me?

Relax! Enjoy the view, Spring is here and Summer is coming. Bring on the soft 'porn'!

 

[Pookeyhead]

....All living species, and that includes human beings, are hardwired into using their eyes - It's not a man-made "visual culture" - It's totally natural in our genes/psyche etc. It's a fundamental and very important component in the natural propagation of ALL species.

In very basic terms, within milliseconds of first encounter, subconciously the very first questions are:

1 - Can I eat it?
2 - Can I mate with it?
3 - Will it eat me?

Very good Robin. We're not hardwired to measure our worth in society that way though. That's entirely man made.

NO one's saying that finding the opposite sex attractive is wrong... just that measuring their worth by how sexually attractive they are is.

 

[Phil V]

Very good Robin. We're not hardwired to measure our worth in society that way though. That's entirely man made.

NO one's saying that finding the opposite sex attractive is wrong... just that measuring their worth by how sexually attractive they are is.

But measuring worth by sexual attractiveness is also part of the process, like it or not, there's a reason women tend towards tall dark handsome men, and believe me I wish it wasn't so (being short fair and less than handsome)

People are naturally attracted to help the propagation, so women look for 'strong' men and men are attracted to signs of sexual activity.

It doesn't mean we're automatically objectifying women, I'm old enough to remember when 'thinking mans crumpet' was considered complimentary, and I've said before IMHO the behaviour on the street has turned a full 180 degrees. No longer do we see commercials aimed at men with scantily clad ladies draped over the bonnet of sports cars, (the concept hasn't disappeared completely - but no ad agency would do it casually) but the Diet Coke moment is considered perfectly acceptable. I work in an environment with predominantly women, and have to accept a steady stream of 'multi tasking' and 'you wouldn't understand you're only a bloke' comments. To use a gender stereotype in conversation with a female, would result in being considered a sexist pig.

I know all the 'hard fought battle' and 'generations of ingrained sexism' twaddle, but this is 2014 I happily cook and clean while my wife works longer hours in a more successful career, I don't see why I have to apologise for the behaviour of my forebears. People find people attractive, it's simple.

 

[RedRobin]

Very good Robin. We're not hardwired to measure our worth in society that way though. That's entirely man made.

NO one's saying that finding the opposite sex attractive is wrong... just that measuring their worth by how sexually attractive they are is.

....Sure, but I'm shallow like Jack Black in the excellent movie 'Shallow Hal' . I'm not entirely shallow but I'm not going to pretend that I never am. As in the movie, it's the beauty within which is most important but if the person also brings out your lust it's a huge bonus (Ooops! I nearly wrote boner!).

When a person is attractive, that attraction takes many forms: Friendliness, attitude, manner, charm, physical appearance, sex appeal, and so on, even intelligence, oh and money! - They all play a part which we can't and shouldn't deny. In my opinion.

We shouldn't expect or want the nanny state to apply itself to our own individual values regarding what's attractive or what we aspire to. If an individual cannot rise above such things then they really aren't worth much anyway!

 

[Lindsay D]

People argue it builds confidence, but if the only way a woman can build confidence is to portray herself as sexually available, and sexually attractive then it's just another manifestation of how women have been taught to think by a visual culture that only places value on women if they are sexually attractive. I mean... why not just give a really nice portrait for a present instead of something bordering on soft core porn?

Just playing devil's advocate here BTW... .

David, please credit women (and men) with a bit more intelligence than that. The boudoir sessions I describe are not merely about sexual titillation, they are often about a return to womanhood, to health, a recovery from depression, a new lease of life even. One of the last ladies I photographed wanted the album as a special thank you to her partner, who had supported her through a long critical illness, a celebration of the fact that she had come through it with a smile on her face and an acceptance of the physical changes which had resulted - something she had struggled with terribly. Another woman I photographed had come from an abusive background and the pictures were part of her therapy. There are usually (if not always) interesting reasons and stories behind photographs - far from the smutty mindset you describe.

 

[SimonF01]

As someone who knows very little about this field can someone please tell me, do men commission such shoots for themselves or is it mainly women?

 

[Lindsay D]

As someone who knows very little about this field can someone please tell me, do men commission such shoots for themselves or is it mainly women?

I have never had a male person require what I would describe as 'dudoir' but I have had countless men get in touch with me (usually anonymously) asking for "nude photography". When pressed for more details as to what they want, I'm sometimes told that it is to assist their stripping/entertainment career and that the photos need to be full frontal (semi-arousals) and that they require a female photographer, on her own, in a remote location. Any suggestions that the photographs should be taken in a studio, professional location, or well populated building are immediately refuted.

So in other words, I have not had any men wanting artistic figure studies, or photographs to present to a partner.

 

[SimonF01]

Thanks for that.

 

[Lindsay D]

Thanks for that.

I will add that I have had two men send me pictures of their willies, alongside the request. It's hard to know why, unless they presume that the willy will create a sense of overwhelming enthusiasm for the shoot, and everything else that may go with it. :nailbiting:

 

[SimonF01]

I will add that I have had two men send me pictures of their willies, alongside the request. It's hard to know why, unless they presume that the willy will create a sense of overwhelming enthusiasm for the shoot, and everything else that may go with it. :nailbiting:

Amazing, I have had hand models send pics of hands and hair and beauty models send pics of their hair and so on, and I met a guy who insisted he was a ' stunt willy ' in porn films, but even then it wasn't on his business card !

I hope it doesn't catch on as way of introducing yourself,

 

[Pookeyhead]

David, please credit women (and men) with a bit more intelligence than that.

Please read the last sentence of my post. It was not my opinion, and was trying to rationalise the argument that suggests why it is regarded as a bad thing by so many.

We shouldn't expect or want the nanny state to apply itself to our own individual values regarding what's attractive or what we aspire to.

No one's suggesting that we don't have our own values as to what is, and is not attractive.. just that we don't actually judge someone's worth as a person and member of society by it.

 

[Pookeyhead]

But measuring worth by sexual attractiveness is also part of the process, like it or not, there's a reason women tend towards tall dark handsome men, and believe me I wish it wasn't so (being short fair and less than handsome)

But that's no more true than saying men prefer tall blonde, curvy women with big tits.

People are naturally attracted to help the propagation, so women look for 'strong' men and men are attracted to signs of sexual activity.

Get over this criteria for judging sexual partner thing.. that's not the issue here....

It doesn't mean we're automatically objectifying women,

No one's saying finding women attractive is objectifying them. Judging them as PEOPLE by that measure is though. I've been on interview panels where men have actually discussed attractiveness when considering candidates.... I'm not joking.

 

[RedRobin]

I've been on interview panels where men have actually discussed attractiveness when considering candidates.... I'm not joking.

....Of course. It's all part of effective public relations and company/organisation/business promotion. Attractive people of either gender are just that.... Attractive.... They attract other people as customers and in turn can more generate sales or business.

If you were interviewing to employ male staff you would equally want them to be suitably presentable and relatively attractive. It doesn't mean you want to have sex with them. Ideally you want all employees to be good at their job and to be attractive personalities but who also look good - That's why anyone going to an interview who wants the job on offer does their very best to look as attractive as possible as well as demonstrating their job skills.

 

[munch]

Can't agree with you on that one RedRobin, I don't give a monkey what people look like I want somebody who can do the job I wan't them to do.

 

[Pookeyhead]

....Of course. It's all part of effective public relations and company/organisation/business promotion. Attractive people of either gender are just that.... Attractive.... They attract other people as customers and in turn can more generate sales or business.

It was for a tele-sales position.

 

[Lindsay D]

David is quite correct, there are lots of jobs where (female) attractiveness plays a key role, particularly where men are doing the interviewing, or in male dominated environments. This reminds me of a situation I encountered many years ago, in fact I've never forgotten it. I had signed up with an agency in London, and they had set up an interview with a very successful man with his own consultancy business, and he needed someone to manage his office. In order to attend the interview I had to take an afternoon off work (unpaid) and a train to London and back from the south coast. I arrived at his address to find that he was finishing up some paperwork and I was asked to wait in a side room - this message was conveyed to me by a decorator who was busy painting the room next door. When the decorator had announced my arrival I had overheard the conversation. The business owner had lowered his voice (but not low enough, unfortunately) and his first question to the decorator was "is she blonde - I don't want a dinge". Hysterical! I'm curious about why he questioned the decorator when he was going to meet me soon enough anyway, I can only presume that if I had not been blonde, that he would not have bothered interviewing me. I later suggested to the agency that they should attach photographs from every angle, and vital statistics to each CV, to avoid wasting people's time. Actually, when I worked in the States, that was common practice.

I have seen businesses where it was quite clear that the workforce was chosen partly on their looks, that kind of thing is extremely common in front of house roles, sales jobs etc. In some cultures, looks can be by far the most important factor when it comes to job seeking, this is becoming increasingly the case in the Far East. I used to live in Loss Angeles, a place almost entirely populated with "actors and models" and therefore finding attractive people was easy - in fact your credentials and experience counted for almost nothing - women were judged based on the size of their tits, men on the size of their muscles and/or bank account.

Aside from the specific skills needed for the job, if I was employing someone I would want them to be clean, smart and well turned out, because that conveys professionalism. I would want them to have excellent interpersonal skills and a good sense of humour. Beyond that, I don't care what they look like.

Edit: the role I just mentioned did not involve client contact, so presumably the only person seeing me would be the business owner and the odd visitor.

 

[Steve]

If only good looking people got jobs, I would have been unemployed my whole life.

 

[big soft moose]

David is quite correct, there are lots of jobs where (female) attractiveness plays a key role, particularly where men are doing the interviewing, or in male dominated environments.

I remember reading somewhere that people are more inclined to trust someone they find attractive , hence why there is a selection process for newsreaders (of both sexes) , particularly in America which aims to select those viewers will find visually appealing. This is also true of some sales positions.

. The business owner had lowered his voice (but not low enough, unfortunately) and his first question to the decorator was "is she blonde - I don't want a dinge".

I once worked for a CEO who had to be persuaded by HR that he couldn't write " must be pretty" as part of the job description for his new PA. The same bloke also told a colleague of mine that she was "looking particularly filthy today" and the wondered why she didn't take it as a compliment.

 

[Lindsay D]

Doesn't surprise me Pete, I've heard it all. When I was at university (and for a time after I graduated) I did quite a lot of temping work, I got some quite nice PA assignments but comparatively few of them were free from overt sexism. Of course that was a very long time ago, a good 20 years, so things will have changed a great deal since then.

I remember one company I worked at for a couple of months, it was an engineering firm with a male workforce of about 15 persons, with myself and another female PA (who was very pretty) managing the office. Overall we enjoyed working there and the guys were a good laugh, but sometimes things went too far. I remember an occasion when the owner took everybody out for a nice meal as a way of rewarding a successful year. Myself and the other lady were also invited, which we thought was normal given that we worked very hard to keep things organised. Anyway, after the main course, the MD made an announcement thanking the 15 male employees for all of their efforts throughout the year, and told them they would be presented with a small token of appreciation. This turned out to be a bottle of good champagne each - but what myself and the other secretary hadn't bargained for was the manner in which it was to be presented to the men. I was told to do one side of the room and my colleague the other, and we were instructed to each present the champagne to each of the men, and we were told to kiss each man at the same time. I was mortified. Basically, we told the MD to p*ss off. We deposited the bottles of wine on each table, noting that we were not given one ourselves. The MD felt that we were both being very petty in refusing to carry out his orders.

I once took a booking at a law firm and the partner I was assigned to was interviewing secretaries for the permanent role - he seemed to get a good selection of nicely qualified candidates, but rejected most of them. When I asked why he said "I hate women who wear make up, they look cheap, I thought I'd made that clear to HR". Obviously the HR department had failed to put that requirement into the advertisement, and also his later admission that he didn't like short women either.

 

[big soft moose]

Yeah that doesn't surprise me, even in this day and age such things are remarkably common (The CEO concerned is still the same sexist pig - though I don't work for him anymore - he notably told a female employee who was off work following a miscarriage last year "its not like you are actually sick, so why are you on sick leave ?" and at a staff social asked another one " are those tights or stockings , I'm hoping for the latter " :bang: )

Mind you its not all one way traffic - when I was recruiting last year I had a female candidate who made it very apparent (in terms too graphic to repeat here) that if we interviewed her she'd demonstrate her gratitude in a number of inventive and practical ways , and included a shot of herself in her lingerie with the application (we didn't - and I let our female HR officer write the rejection letter) - this is also why when we interview we do it with a mixed sex interview panel

 

[Lindsay D]

Yes, I have also heard of women who have used their 'charms' to get ahead on the career ladder. I knew someone a bit like that once - she would insist that she was exploiting the men, which she apparently found satisfying, but evaded any questioning as to the effects on her self-respect or reputation. It appears some people are happy to do whatever's required in order to get on in life.

 

[big soft moose]

You've got to be pretty damn stupid to go there as an interviewer to be frank (even if you were single, which I'm not) , leaving aside the whole risk of getting fired for being an unprofessional moron , there's also the fact that if she's got to resort to sleeping her way up the ladder you have to question how good at the job she actually is, and its just setting uup for a messy disciplinary process IMO.

 

[big soft moose]

I have never had a male person require what I would describe as 'dudoir' but I have had countless men get in touch with me (usually anonymously) asking for "nude photography". When pressed for more details as to what they want, I'm sometimes told that it is to assist their stripping/entertainment career and that the photos need to be full frontal (semi-arousals) and that they require a female photographer, on her own, in a remote location. Any suggestions that the photographs should be taken in a studio, professional location, or well populated building are immediately refuted.
.

If they are that 'shy' I can't think their adult entertainment career is going to take off

 

[big soft moose]

leaving aside the dirty old/young men - the other thing is how big a market is there for partner dudoir ? - that is how many wives/girlfriends would actually be happy to be presented with a set of semi naked pictures of their husband/boyfriend ? I'm sure there's some , but I'm also reasonably confident that it isn't as big a market as the number of men who'd be happy to get something like that from a female partner

 

[simonblue]

Yes, I have also heard of women who have used their 'charms' to get ahead on the career ladder. I knew someone a bit like that once - she would insist that she was exploiting the men, which she apparently found satisfying, but evaded any questioning as to the effects on her self-respect or reputation. It appears some people are happy to do whatever's required in order to get on in life.

Their was a very famous lady photographers in WW11 who was said to use theses method

 

[big soft moose]

Their was a very famous lady photographers in WW11 who was said to use theses method

True although she'd been a victim of child abuse aged 8 , so she may have been a little messed up in the head vis a vis sleeping with figures of authority.

 

[simonblue]

True although she'd been a victim of child abuse aged 8 , so she may have been a little messed up in the head vis a vis sleeping with figures of authority.

Yep fair point,but it has been made about quite a few times of women reporter/photographers using their charms to get the story,not that you can sometimes blame them in a world they maybe feel at times dominated by males

 

[Lindsay D]

I suppose it depends what we mean exactly when we say "using their charms". If we're talking about full-blown sexual favours (as opposed to 'wiles and flirtation') then quite simply that is prostitution. How we feel about that will depend on the individual, but I don't think they're helping themselves or their careers in the long term, or that of any woman to be honest. It could also perpetuate the view that a male boss or colleague could insist upon such favours whilst holding advancement to ransom, as in "you won't get that assignment/promotion unless you sleep with me". It ends up going both ways.

 

[big soft moose]

Yep fair point,but it has been made about quite a few times of women reporter/photographers using their charms to get the story,not that you can sometimes blame them in a world they maybe feel at times dominated by males

Indeed - though like Lindsay said earlier you have to wonder about their self respect /self esteem issues. I think it also depends on how far you take it, I know a couple of female reporters (local papers) who flirt and generally bat their eye lashes etc when dealing with a male source (doesn't fly with me, but I could see it being quite effective with a lot of men) because there are a lot of guys who'll try and big themselves up / say too much in the hope of impressing a pretty girl (this may be equally true for the more rugged male reporters and female sources).

However that's very different to actually exchanging sexual favours for stories - not only is that akin to prostitution, it is also akin to corruption , and not much different to paying for stories with cash.

 

[big soft moose]

I have to say I find the "wiles and flirtation" pretty tiresome in the professional environment too. Like with the aforementioned reporters, I often feel like saying "look just ask me for what you want, if I can help you I will, but I'm not sharing confidential info, and giggling, batting your eyelashes, and playing with your hair isn't going to change that"

 

[simonblue]

I suppose it depends what we mean exactly when we say "using their charms". If we're talking about full-blown sexual favours (as opposed to 'wiles and flirtation') then quite simply that is prostitution. How we feel about that will depend on the individual, but I don't think they're helping themselves or their careers in the long term, or that of any woman to be honest. It could also perpetuate the view that a male boss or colleague could insist upon such favours whilst holding advancement to ransom, as in "you won't get that assignment/promotion unless you sleep with me". It ends up going both ways.

I know but while their is that attraction between men & women it will sometimes still happen,same as it as always happen,believe me i don't like it

 

[RedRobin]

I'll probably get into trouble for posting this but I think it's amusingly relevant to the how the thread has developed....

 

[big soft moose]

I know but while their is that attraction between men & women it will sometimes still happen,same as it as always happen,believe me i don't like it

IMO if colleagues sleep together based on mutual attraction that's fair enough , however what we are talking about here has very little to do with attraction - its more of a commercial exchange if I do x for you in bed, you'll do Y for me in performance review , its inherently no different to giving your boss an envelope full of twenties (except that bribery doesn't have the same deleterious impact on the Psyche)

That said in a previous role my (female) boss came on to me after an xmas party - she was very attractive , but I still turned her down as imo boss and subordinate is not a good idea, and while the next day was a little awkward ( I went with the gentlemanly "too drunk to remember much" excuse ) it would have been considerably more awkward if we'd gone back to the novotel together

 

[simonblue]

Indeed - though like Lindsay said earlier you have to wonder about their self respect /self esteem issues. I think it also depends on how far you take it, I know a couple of female reporters (local papers) who flirt and generally bat their eye lashes etc when dealing with a male source (doesn't fly with me, but I could see it being quite effective with a lot of men) because there are a lot of guys who'll try and big themselves up / say too much in the hope of impressing a pretty girl (this may be equally true for the more rugged male reporters and female sources).

However that's very different to actually exchanging sexual favours for stories - not only is that akin to prostitution, it is also akin to corruption , and not much different to paying for stories with cash.

I know i hate it and it doesn't work with me aswell,but we be very naive to pretend it still doesn't happen

 

[big soft moose]

There's all sorts of unintended consequences of this sort of thing going on , like for instance the other day I sent a highly complimentary write up on a colleague to a director (saying that I felt she deserved congratulations from on high for her performance) - while this was well received by the hierarchy, it generated a lot of cynical response lower down when word got out .. "oh aye I know what kind of performance she's given you" etc

Now she is undeniably beautiful, but my write up wasn't motivated by her long blonde hair, pretty green eyes, or knock out figure ( I'm not going to lie and say I didn't notice these things in passing - I'm a hetero guy with a pulse ), but by the fact that she's brought in over £20k in extra income for our team in a very short time frame. My response would have been the same if she was less attractive than the bottom of a coal barge, or indeed if it had been a male colleague.

Its also both sexist and appeancist for these allegations to be made - If she wasn't as good looking no one would have said owt , and my general response to those spouting such crap was "if you want that kind of write up, try spending more time actually doing your job properly instead of gossiping about colleagues"

 

[simon ess]

Enough men are stupid enough to be influenced by a pretty girl for some pretty girls to try to influence them with flirtation.

I detest them both.

Not sure what that has to do with the thread though. Sorry.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Enough men are stupid enough to be influenced by a pretty girl for some pretty girls to try to influence them with flirtation.

I detest them both.

Not sure what that has to do with the thread though. Sorry.

Pretty much nothing except your own prejudices perhaps and a long way from the thread subject.

On theme...
I had 2 years of Boudoir Photography which evolved purely by word of mouth.

The age range was 27-72 years AND was initiated by the women themselves and covered nude (but not crude) to a flash of stocking top in a garden.

Was I exploited ... oh yes I never charged .... AND I had to buy some new lights.

Was it titillating? Sometimes but for me it was

a. Important to remain detached
b. Concentrate on composition and pose
c. Discretion and respect. It was sometimes possible to mis-pose to expose.
d. A temporal thing which I was able to use to develop the genre as I saw it.

Did boyfriends/husbands attend or comment - No! Apart from my first shoot, I never even knew the subject.

As member and later treasurer and later secretary of a North London camera club, I often organised female models for the bi-monthly glamour night. None of the female members took part in the shoot and instead chatted in the kitchen or used the darkroom.

One of the women asked if they could shoot a male model. So we arranged a male model for the next glamour evening.. The women enjoyed the evening and the men drannk tea until the last half hour when a couple of men joined the shoot. The comments from the men was that it had been a real challenge.

So was there exploitation - not in the least. Was it overall a tough gig.... not in the slightest in terms of the subject but very much so in getting the shots right so that the subjects could be comfortable with results.

Not once did any of the women ask for gynaecological type pictures and not once did I attempt them.

Had they asked my response would, in all likelihood, have been no. I like the mystery to remain.

So no moralising from me.

My next project (hopefully) is a cave with a small cathedral..... Hopefully

Stevr