Boiler installation

Cactus Jack

Cactus Jack

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Hoping a plumber or someone in the know could clear up a few questions. Currently getting quotes for a new combi boiler installation in the loft.

One plumber talked about acidic condensate and that I'll need some sort of filter for it or it'll corrode the steel down pipes. Anyone heard of this?

Also stated that he prefers to do everything in copper not plastic as eventualy the rubber O rings fail. Any thoughts?

Generally do you only part with monies on completion of works for plumbing? I don't really want to give some bloke I barely know money up front for a boiler and sundries.

Cheers all.
 
Never give money 'up front' for anything unless you really know them..... :)
 
Condensing boilers produce an acidic concentrate. The drainage pipe has to be a decent size or they freeze over and stop the boiler working/screw the boiler up totally too. Next door has one and it is currently marking their driveway.

I normally pay on completion. If someone wants a chunk of money up front, walk away.

I noticed somewhere doing worcester bosch boilers with a 10 year guarantee. They've been advertising on the box with Johnny Ball so I don't know whether they're any good. Worcester make good boilers. Ditto Vaillant. I'd be wary of other makes as they seem to be much less reliable. Ideal & Alpha seem to be the worst.
 
I am not a plumber by trade but have helped install several (except gas connection) currently doing another this week.
Just my opinion but putting them in the loft is not a good idea, if you get problems (and generally you will) at some point then clambering up in the loft is going to be a pain.
Condensate is acidic but I would not to put it into a downpipe, it needs to go into a waste pipe or soil stack or apparently you can now put it into some container containing lime, but as said above it can freeze so try to dispose of it inside into a waste pipe.
Everything done in copper is the proper way imo.
Worcester are good as are Valiant but we are currently fitting an ideal logic plus, ideal have a terrible name but this particular boiler has appeared to be pretty good and currently has a 7 year warranty.
Never part with anything until the job is done unless you are ordering the materials yourself.
 
srichards said:
I noticed somewhere doing worcester bosch boilers with a 10 year guarantee.
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We got one fitted in May to replace an old style one, it's a 37CDi and it's an excellent boiler, my monthly Gas & Elec combined has come down from £180pm to £55pm and the house is constantly at 20C during the day and 18C at night and this includes baths every night for baby. I think you only get the extra long warranty when it's an approved fitter, but ours did a cracking job and the whole thing runs like clockwork. We got slightly larger pipes put in from the outside to allow for having a gas cooker and gas fires all sharing the gas.

Our water pressure is good so we wanted the higher spec one to maintain the hot water at faster flow rates. The junior ones struggle a little.
 
Splog said:
Never give money 'up front' for anything unless you really know them..... :)
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srichards said:
I normally pay on completion. If someone wants a chunk of money up front, walk away.
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scraggs said:
Everything done in copper is the proper way imo.
Never part with anything until the job is done unless you are ordering the materials yourself.
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Sorry, but have to disagree with this.

If you are employing a sole trader, as opposed to a company, then you should pay for materials at least and if it is a lengthy job, you should also pay interim payments for work completed, if you are happy with it.

So many people are suffering in the recession, and not being paid for weeks or months but being expected to fork out for all the materials out of ther own pocket does not help.


Heather
 
Thanks for the advice and tips all.:thumbs: We are going for a Vaillant Ecotec 28 Pro. Only have a small house so should be sufficient. Small house is also the reason we wish to place it in the loft. Nearly all boilers have a frost detection system now to stop them freezing. Condensate freezing is an issue however where it will be situated we have no way of getting it to a waste or soil pipe. However, most boilers now have a resevoir which fills then dumps the condensate in one go to help stop it freezing. Need to check if the 28 pro has this.
 
The majority of gas fitters/plumbers/builders will have trade accounts. A boiler installation is a quick and short job. I'd expect to pay on completion. Major building works would be another matter where I'd expect staged payments on completion of each stage not in advance of it. If they don't have the cash flow for materials for each stage they're not a company/person I'd do business with as it means they're right on the edge of going bust.

I don't think the model you're looking at has the fancy pumped (syphonic?) trap. It has an ordinary drain. The more expensive plus models have it.
 
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srichards said:
The majority of gas fitters/plumbers/builders will have trade accounts. A boiler installation is a quick and short job. I'd expect to pay on completion. Major building works would be another matter where I'd expect staged payments on completion of each stage not in advance of it. If they don't have the cash flow for materials for each stage they're not a company/person I'd do business with as it means they're right on the edge of going bust.

<snip>
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:cool: I agree...
 
Not a penny changed hands until the job was final and he (and team) wouldn't have it any other way as well. But does this smack of hypocrisy when photographers often want paid up front?
 
We had a new boiler fitted at the end of August/beginning of September and I keep hassling the plumber for a bill! I've offered to pay him in full for his time and at least for the bricky who blocked up the old balanced flue hole but he won't take any money!
 
gman said:
Not a penny changed hands until the job was final and he (and team) wouldn't have it any other way as well. But does this smack of hypocrisy when photographers often want paid up front?
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Try buying a new car without paying up front..............

As a sole trader for more than one business, payment for materials up front is something that I encourage. Many 'trade' accounts are for discount only and are not 'terms' accounts.

If you are happy with the reputation of your installer, there is no reason not to pay up front for materials and interim payments if required.
 
I think buying a car is slightly different. We've not had a tradesman round our house once where we've had to pay them up front.
 
tiler65 said:
Try buying a new car without paying up front..............
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That's a pure product though, whereas the heating engineer and photographers are service and product.
 
With regards to the waste pipe, condensate. It should be terminated in a waste pipe, this can be soil stack or drain. Shouldn't go into a rain water down pipe unless 100% sure it goes to foul drain and not the soak away. This should be plastic waste pipe too, it will corrode copper and can only connect in cast iron soil stack after the toilet or another connection.

The discharge is acidic and should not be left dripping onto surfaces e.g driveways.

Worcester, Vaillant, Glowworm, baxi and Potterton are all good brands.

Copper is generally the way to go for pipe work, unless you can't get copper down there. Gas must always be copper.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
Sorry, but have to disagree with this.

If you are employing a sole trader, as opposed to a company, then you should pay for materials at least and if it is a lengthy job, you should also pay interim payments for work completed, if you are happy with it.

So many people are suffering in the recession, and not being paid for weeks or months but being expected to fork out for all the materials out of ther own pocket does not help.


Heather
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It's a simple boiler install, if it's a swap it's probably a couple of days, if it an average complete system its about a week, if a plumber can't withstand that you probably don't want to be using them anyway.
If they don't like not getting paid for work until it's done then they don't have to do it, but there are plenty out there that will.
 
All boilers have a small trap inside for condense to collect, this is then dumped when full. The freezing problem occurs when the pipe has a long run with little downward fall or the pipe is too small.

One product that helps is called Condensulate. It involves small pipe inside a larger pipe. Supposedly doesn't freeze down the -15c.

Condense is always best run internally.

Is there any access to your soil stack from your loft?
 
Just to put things from the "other" side, all boiler work we do, install or breakdown repair, the customer has to pay a 50% deposit unless we have done other things for them in the past, if they don't or won't pay the deposit then we walk away, the reasons.....in the past we've done work and then they come to pay by card....declined...oh try this card...declined....take this cheque...bouncy bouncy, the items fitted then cannot be removed as the so called lovely customer insists we leave the propery, take them to small claims and they plead poverty and offer a pittance in payment.
I think it's pretty unfair to tar every tradesman with the same brush saying that because we need to secure at least something in return for our outlays that we are rogues.
Many outlets require a deposit on an order, you don't go into the pub and drink a pint then pay tomorrow and so on.
There are Rogue Traders out there but there ways of getting a good idea if they are reputable....please remember, there are also many Rogue customers out there aswell
 
Martyn D said:
Just to put things from the "other" side, all boiler work we do, install or breakdown repair, the customer has to pay a 50% deposit unless we have done other things for them in the past, if they don't or won't pay the deposit then we walk away, the reasons.....in the past we've done work and then they come to pay by card....declined...oh try this card...declined....take this cheque...bouncy bouncy, the items fitted then cannot be removed as the so called lovely customer insists we leave the propery, take them to small claims and they plead poverty and offer a pittance in payment.
I think it's pretty unfair to tar every tradesman with the same brush saying that because we need to secure at least something in return for our outlays that we are rogues.
Many outlets require a deposit on an order, you don't go into the pub and drink a pint then pay tomorrow and so on.
There are Rogue Traders out there but there ways of getting a good idea if they are reputable....please remember, there are also many Rogue customers out there aswell
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Excellent post.
 
Martyn D said:
Just to put things from the "other" side, all boiler work we do, install or breakdown repair, the customer has to pay a 50% deposit unless we have done other things for them in the past, if they don't or won't pay the deposit then we walk away, the reasons.....in the past we've done work and then they come to pay by card....declined...oh try this card...declined....take this cheque...bouncy bouncy, the items fitted then cannot be removed as the so called lovely customer insists we leave the propery, take them to small claims and they plead poverty and offer a pittance in payment.
I think it's pretty unfair to tar every tradesman with the same brush saying that because we need to secure at least something in return for our outlays that we are rogues.
Many outlets require a deposit on an order, you don't go into the pub and drink a pint then pay tomorrow and so on.
There are Rogue Traders out there but there ways of getting a good idea if they are reputable....please remember, there are also many Rogue customers out there aswell
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Did I say every trader was a rogue..
 
Thanks for all the comments. I'll try to settle with the plumber on completion is they agree.

Rupek: apparently all quoting plumbers would fit a neutralising filter to the condensate pipe for the acidity. However we have one plumber stating that it'll be ok to have the neutralised condensate expel into the rain gutter and another who wants to slice through our iron soil pipe and connect a T junction, so to speak. Obviously the more convenient and cheaper option is to expel to the rain gutter. Any thoughts?
 
As a small business, if I done any work ie install a boiler and you chose not to pay, it's a lengthy, stressful business getting paid
Personally, if I asked for money up front for materials and never got it, I wouldn't want the job
Some jobs I ask it, others not. Every case is individual and pretty much depends on what I know about you as a client
Maybe my neck of the woods it's unusual, but I'd say this is absolutely normal
I'm a builder, but my plumber mate would definitely have a giggle at this thread
 
Martyn D said:
Just to put things from the "other" side, all boiler work we do, install or breakdown repair, the customer has to pay a 50% deposit unless we have done other things for them in the past, if they don't or won't pay the deposit then we walk away, the reasons.....in the past we've done work and then they come to pay by card....declined...oh try this card...declined....take this cheque...bouncy bouncy, the items fitted then cannot be removed as the so called lovely customer insists we leave the propery, take them to small claims and they plead poverty and offer a pittance in payment.
I think it's pretty unfair to tar every tradesman with the same brush saying that because we need to secure at least something in return for our outlays that we are rogues.
Many outlets require a deposit on an order, you don't go into the pub and drink a pint then pay tomorrow and so on.
There are Rogue Traders out there but there ways of getting a good idea if they are reputable....please remember, there are also many Rogue customers out there aswell
Click to expand...

Absolutely spot on, and the 50% deposit will probably only just cover the materials (if that!) for a boiler installation.

Plus normally you can't just walk in and pick up the boiler you want, it needs to be ordered, and paid for, in advance, sometimes weeks before the job is started.

Unless you have done work for the customer before, why do people think it is ok to expect the tradesman to pay out thousands of pounds for their goods on trust?


Heather
 
Slightly off topic......

My Brother's a self-employed plumber and over the last year or so he's had big problems with people not paying on completion and will always try to get customers to pay for materials up front as then it's only his time that doesn't get paid if they can't come up with the payment. In his words "I don't like being robbed twice".

As I type I believe there's a 4 figure sum that he's owed by a few customers. They plead poverty but have no regard for the fact he still needs to pay his mortgage and feed his kids (and owes Dad who keeps having to make up the shortfall).
 
If it's a large and time consuming job then stage payments is standard stuff. You can also hold a percentage as retention which is an excellent way to ensure any problems post-install are sorted fast. This can be released after an agreed and acceptable time.

I wouldn't consider a £2,500 boiler installation a large, time consuming job. If doing stage payments it's reasonable that the customer always holds back enough money to cover the cost of getting someone else to finish the job in case the original tradesmen bolt.
 
Tigger.ufo said:
Absolutely spot on, and the 50% deposit will probably only just cover the materials (if that!) for a boiler installation.

Plus normally you can't just walk in and pick up the boiler you want, it needs to be ordered, and paid for, in advance, sometimes weeks before the job is started.

Unless you have done work for the customer before, why do people think it is ok to expect the tradesman to pay out thousands of pounds for their goods on trust?


Heather
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For a plumber, carpenter, electrician, plasterer and anybody else who has anything to do with the building industry, it is just a simple operation to open an account with your local merchants. Being in the building industry myself i can assure you that if you have an account you will not have to pay in advance for any standard off the shelf materials. Occasionally some things will have to be ordered in but not with payment first, and even then the majority of materials are only 1 to 2 days away. We are talking about a boiler not a rolls royce. As to a 50 percent deposit, i think this is way over the top to expect a customer to pay in advance. If you are doing a photoshoot there always seems to be a contract involved, so you should do the same when doing any type of work. If people then don't pay at least you have a breach to help you sort it out afterwards.
 
I do always think it's strange that wedding togs want full payment up front before the wedding, and rightly so. But that people, including togs, don't think they should have to pay anything up front for a job such as a boiler replacement. Nowadays, contractors really should have a signed contract in place to protect themselves. Non-payers and late payers are on the increase and if a plumber doesn't get paid for a job, such as a boiler replacement, he will suffer an actual loss as he will have had to pay for the boiler etc.
 
Rupek said:
With regards to the waste pipe, condensate. It should be terminated in a waste pipe, this can be soil stack or drain. Shouldn't go into a rain water down pipe unless 100% sure it goes to foul drain and not the soak away. This should be plastic waste pipe too, it will corrode copper and can only connect in cast iron soil stack after the toilet or another connection.

The discharge is acidic and should not be left dripping onto surfaces e.g driveways.

Worcester, Vaillant, Glowworm, baxi and Potterton are all good brands.

Copper is generally the way to go for pipe work, unless you can't get copper down there. Gas must always be copper.
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I am a gas safe engineer and have been for the last 22 years and I can confirm the above. As for payment before not the norm, however more and more people are supplying the parts to be fitted now days. Make sure the installation is reg with your local council and you get a cert from them as well as your engineer. One more thing before you choose go on to gas safe web site and check your chosen company and engineer have correct elements to fit your boiler.
 
Stokesy said:
I am a gas safe engineer and have been for the last 22 years and I can confirm the above. As for payment before not the norm, however more and more people are supplying the parts to be fitted now days. Make sure the installation is reg with your local council and you get a cert from them as well as your engineer. One more thing before you choose go on to gas safe web site and check your chosen company and engineer have correct elements to fit your boiler.
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You forgot to leave your phone number........
 
I take it your loft has been boarded out to the boiler and a working area around it. Permanent lighting and a fixed loft ladder.??

Just make sure you get your certificate from gas safe when he registers it.
 
Worcester every time don't even touch Gloworm
Try to get condensate to terminate inside house by using condensate pump would really help with freezing issue we get each year now ?
If your boiler is placed in loft get a remote fill valve and gauge placed in old airing cupboard ?
 
joker2006 said:
I take it your loft has been boarded out to the boiler and a working area around it. Permanent lighting and a fixed loft ladder.??

Just make sure you get your certificate from gas safe when he registers it.
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Yep boarded with permanent lighting and a fixed ladder. Must remember the certificate:bang:

Since found out that having the condensate expel to the gutter will be fine. May be an issue with freezing but hopefully the boilers reservoir will minimise that, plus very little of the pipe will be out side. Guess I'll find out in a cold winter.
 
Cactus Jack said:
Yep boarded with permanent lighting and a fixed ladder. Must remember the certificate:bang:

Since found out that having the condensate expel to the gutter will be fine. May be an issue with freezing but hopefully the boilers reservoir will minimise that, plus very little of the pipe will be out side. Guess I'll find out in a cold winter.
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You cannot terminate to a gutter according to building regulations
 
Just had our plumber pop round with the bill for supply and fit new boiler, supply and fit new taps to bathroom basin and bath, supply and fit towel rail type radiator - all for a touch over 1500 quid. That included getting a brickie in to fill the hole difference between the old balanced flue hole and the new condensing boiler flue. The condensate expels to the washing machine drain - all plastic and goes to the foul drain rather than a rain gulley. Of course, he went away with a cheque - we've been hassling him for a bill since he finished the job but he's apparently been waiting on his bills for all the bits before he could work it out.
 
Which boiler did you get if you don't mind me asking?
 
I have never been asked for cash up front by any trades man. Certainly never by a plumber. Most round here drive newer cars than I do, and live in bigger houses.
Mostly they write out a bill and I pay cash when the job is done, or by cheque if they want to invoice later.

When I moved into this house I had the house rewired, the heating system altered and modernised, and a new tiled roof put on the garage to replece a flat one. No one asked for cash up front and all kept to their estimates. They were all sent checks the day I got their invoices.
 
gman said:
Which boiler did you get if you don't mind me asking?
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Potterton boiler and Center programmer. I'm sure there are better of both but they both have decent warranties and the plumber is a mate of long standing and wouldn't sell us rubbish! Handy being married to the ex manageress of the D&E Sqash club - mates in many trades and professions!
 
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