Blackfishing?

ancient_mariner said:
It's both important to understand why things are done, because otherwise incorrect assumptions may be made later.
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I don’t disagree but I note you seem to justify, or at least gloss over, these ancient persecutions while castigating more modern ones. I wonder how the ancient victims perceived them? :(
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
Not quite true.

In fact, the old testament is rather full of it. For example, in the Book of Joshua, the big fella tells Joshua to kill every person (and their livestock) in the towns of Jericho and Ai, which sounds like racist inspired genocide to me. Likewise, in the Book of Samuel, the boss tells Saul to wipe out the Amalekites. When Saul decides that's a step too far, Samuel is told to finish the job.
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The old testament had no problem with genocide. But it was nor racist as they were all of the same race. It was more tribal.
 
Into the 17 century the Arabs were raiding the coasts of the UK and Ireland and took entire villages into slavery in North Africa.
 
Terrywoodenpic said:
The old testament had no problem with genocide. But it was nor racist as they were all of the same race. It was more tribal.
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Ah, that’s your perception but not necessarily theirs :(.
 
sphexx said:
Ah, that’s your perception but not necessarily theirs :(.
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If it's tribal, you can't get them for racism? Who's got the pin that those angels did their tap dance routine on?
 
Interesting sidelight from an interviewee on the BBC World Service this morning. It turns out that the law against genocide was created on the fly, when they were setting up the Nuremberg tribunal and applied retroactively.
 
I thought that I had described things dispassionately - they are ancient history and my horror or endorsement makes no difference. The times were also different, and judging actions of people 3000+ years ago by present norms isn't useful either.

If we were facing the same situation today - an inherently culturally racist Israel oppressing and wishing to wipe out the surrounding nations (some of whom have openly declared a desire to exterminate all Jews) then you might find my opinions would carry more sentiment.

sphexx said:
I don’t disagree but I note you seem to justify, or at least gloss over, these ancient persecutions while castigating more modern ones. I wonder how the ancient victims perceived them? :(
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AndrewFlannigan said:
If it's tribal, you can't get them for racism? Who's got the pin that those angels did their tap dance routine on?
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It’s the “they can’t be racist because they’re brown” thing which is of course racist in itself and curiously a view held (perhaps unconsciously) by some anti-racists :(.
 
ancient_mariner said:
If we were facing the same situation today - an inherently culturally racist Israel oppressing and wishing to wipe out the surrounding nations (some of whom have openly declared a desire to exterminate all Jews) then you might find my opinions would carry more sentiment.
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I’m genuinely not clear what you are saying there. It seems to me that if you had written — We are facing the same situation today - an inherently culturally racist Israel ... etc — it could be an accurate, though maybe contentious, description of the current situation.
 
ancient_mariner said:
The times were also different,
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Not really. There is no real difference between the events reported (or made up) in the bible and the events happening around the world today. As always, the bullies want their own way and there's always someone on the sidelines to sell them the latest and greatest stick to hit others with.

This page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts claims that there are currently...
  • 4 major wars (10,000 or more combat related deaths in current or previous year)
  • 18 wars (1,000 to 9,999 combat related deaths in current or previous year)
  • 24 minor wars (100 to 999 combat related deaths in current or previous year)
  • 14 skirmishes or clashes (fewer than 100 combat related deaths in current or previous year)
As always, the winners don't always have right on their side, then again: neither do the losers. :(
 
sphexx said:
I’m genuinely not clear what you are saying there. It seems to me that if you had written — We are facing the same situation today - an inherently culturally racist Israel ... etc — it could be an accurate, though maybe contentious, description of the current situation.
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This is a good example of why not to write stuff on a phone. :p Trying to express several streams of thought simultaneously. :rolleyes:
ancient_mariner said:
I thought that I had described things dispassionately - they are ancient history and my horror or endorsement makes no difference. The times were also different, and judging actions of people 3000+ years ago by present norms isn't useful either.

If we were facing the same situation today - an inherently culturally racist Israel oppressing and wishing to wipe out the surrounding nations (some of whom have openly declared a desire to exterminate all Jews) then you might find my opinions would carry more sentiment.
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Today Israel is unable to do what some in that country might wish, and the surrounding countries cannot do what they would wish - international powers largely prevents the worst excesses although it cannot stop stuff happening at a low level. As you might be able to tell, I have no love for the behaviours of many nations in the middle east, and have even felt a little of the anti-gentile sentiment while visiting Israel (passing school children thought it fine to punch tourists for example).
 
ancient_mariner said:
This is a good example of why not to write stuff on a phone. :p Trying to express several streams of thought simultaneously. :rolleyes:


Today Israel is unable to do what some in that country might wish, and the surrounding countries cannot do what they would wish - international powers largely prevents the worst excesses although it cannot stop stuff happening at a low level. As you might be able to tell, I have no love for the behaviours of many nations in the middle east, and have even felt a little of the anti-gentile sentiment while visiting Israel (passing school children thought it fine to punch tourists for example).
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Gottit! :). I think we are on the same page though I believe you are reading the book from the front whereas I’m reading it from the end backward ;).
 
It seems to me that some people try everything to divide one another, Film user vs Digital, Mountain Bikers vs Road bike riders, black vs white you get the picture. Is there a name for Black people that edge closer to being white, Damn Whitefishing, road biking, old, filmies.
 
It's always struck me as odd how Americans divide themselves into their various tribes.

Irish American, Jewish American, Italian American, etc.

I think it's less prevalent here but it does happen.
 
ancient_mariner said:
and have even felt a little of the anti-gentile sentiment while visiting Israel (passing school children thought it fine to punch tourists for example).
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I'm guessing you ran into the ultra orthodox. Like all fanatics, their parents teach them that only their view is right and any who disagree are wrong. There are many Israelies and even more Jews who find the ultra orthodox a plague that could do with being cured.
 
simon ess said:
It's always struck me as odd how Americans divide themselves into their various tribes.

Irish American, Jewish American, Italian American, etc.

I think it's less prevalent here but it does happen.
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They are getting into difficulties with that now, first with Latino and now with Asian American

Latino has been used for people in Florida who are often right wing Cubans and various Central & Southern Americans in eg Texas who are more left plus lots of people of directly Spanish origin in the lands the US appropriated from Mexico and who were Americans before the Americans arrived (disregarding the Native Americans, as they do).

Asian Americans now is used for people of Japanese, Chinese Vietnamese, Hmong, and latterly lots of Indians none of whom have much in common with each other either demographically or otherwise. The Vietnamese tend to poorer and right wingers and the Indians tend to be richer and currently more left despite possibly having more opinions common with the Republicans.

All this is generalising of course, mostly from what I read mostly in the NY Times.
 
I forgot to add you hardly ever read or hear about German Americans (though there are some very German area still I believe) despite the fact that whole swathes of the country were German speaking pre-1914 and it is often claimed that but for WW1 & 2 the US would be German speaking not English now :).
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
I'm guessing you ran into the ultra orthodox. Like all fanatics, their parents teach them that only their view is right and any who disagree are wrong. There are many Israelies and even more Jews who find the ultra orthodox a plague that could do with being cured.
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They looked like ordinary school kids, the children of ultra orthodox families being distinctive in dress and style like their parents.
 
ancient_mariner said:
They looked like ordinary school kids, the children of ultra orthodox families being distinctive in dress and style like their parents.
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They might be from the "frumers" - equivalent to the devout Roman Catholics. Wherever they come from, and depending on age, a good clip round the earhole seems called for.
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
They might be from the "frumers" - equivalent to the devout Roman Catholics. Wherever they come from, and depending on age, a good clip round the earhole seems called for.
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Probably a bit unwise from a tourist :).
 
Tigger.ufo said:
Fair game if they have punched you!
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Y'know I can just see how that's going to go down - tourist starts assaulting child.....

There were a lot of IDF people around, well armed, looking read for action. Even if I could prove innocence afterwards it wouldn't justify the trouble. Plus an eye for an eye is what perpetuates trouble.

There's a few places I've not felt safe. Morocco is one, Zimbabwe another, Israel and especially Jerusalem a third.
 
:rolleyes:When did the Far East become Asia? I remember when it known as the Orient, saying that Australia wasn’t in Europe and didn’t compete in the song contest.
 
The Far East has always been Asia in the same way that the UK is still Europe.
 
Blackfishing? Honestly stuff like this makes me cringe. Culture isn't copyrighted. It's out there, in the public domain, and as such people are going to be influenced by it. That's entirely right, in my opinion. That's the whole point of it, to learn and develop. Blimey! We wouldn't have had The Beatles, or the Stones, or Two Tone if it wasn't for a rich mix of cultures.
 
Plain Nev said:
Blackfishing? Honestly stuff like this makes me cringe. Culture isn't copyrighted. It's out there, in the public domain, and as such people are going to be influenced by it. That's entirely right, in my opinion. That's the whole point of it, to learn and develop. Blimey! We wouldn't have had The Beatles, or the Stones, or Two Tone if it wasn't for a rich mix of cultures.
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Very true, but don't forget there are some people who believe the "blues" has sold out its roots (soul) and become too "western"

In recent times look at all the backlash against artists like Eminem for being a "white artist" in a genre that is predominately "black"
 
I vaguely remember there was some sort of reaction to a white man rapping. Although, there are double standards here. The Beastie Boys never had that problem. You could easily say that of them, but they were creative in their own right.
 
simon ess said:
Excellent point!

Can you imagine if the Stones had been told they can't appropriate Black music.
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Obviously not singers, but quite a few black musicians play ‘white’ instruments :). The whole thing is bonkers. I suppose it could be said to have had it’s origins in more sensible things like the objection to white “blackface” minstrels etc but even that has gone somewhat bonkers at times.
 
simon ess said:
Excellent point!

Can you imagine if the Stones had been told they can't appropriate Black music.
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Might have been Muddy Waters who remarked on the Stones something along the lines of "Those boys want to play the blues so bad that's just the way they play 'em!"
 
Nod said:
The Far East has always been Asia in the same way that the UK is still Europe.
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Not when I was at school and learning geography, seem to remember OZ was lumped in with Asia titled Australasia(sp).
 
mj4456 said:
seem to remember OZ was lumped in with Asia titled Australasia(sp).
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Now you mention it, yes, I also remember that.
 
mj4456 said:
Not when I was at school and learning geography,
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The far east is part of the continent of Asia, it was when you and I were at school.
mj4456 said:
seem to remember OZ was lumped in with Asia titled Australasia
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Australasia is the continent which includes vAustralia and New Zealand, nothing to do with the continent Asia.
 
mj4456 said:
Not when I was at school and learning geography, seem to remember OZ was lumped in with Asia titled Australasia(sp).
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I think this was before we had "Oceania" and before the Antarctic was considered a continent. I think there needs to be more rings on the Olympic flag :facepalm:
 
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