Black and White photography from Digital ??

BADGER.BRAD

Suspended / Banned
Messages
4,252
Edit My Images
Yes
Hello,

I don't do a lot of digital photography but was playing with my Kodak Bridge camera the other day and manged to get it stuck in black and white for a while before I finally worked out how to get back to colour. My question is,is it going to return results any where near as good as black and white film or is it just like greyscaling a photo after it has been taken.

Thanks all
 
I'M not really a fan of post processing is that what you mean about how you process it ?
 
Last edited:
I like all of them but think the film has more tonal range, what was happening with the first one ? Are you processing them yourself.
 
think the film has more tonal range,

In my fumbling, amateur bufoonery, I agree with this.

B+W negs do have more dynamic range although I think Fuji are getting close with their cameras now - maybe others too.

But, the Orange one is right, I don't see how you can avoid processing of some sort although, again, digital jpegs are getting better. (But that is still processing, just by the camera rather than you)

I still shoot 90% film but don't mind using my Fuji.
 
The digital is a Kodak Pixpro AZ401 which I must admit I have hardly used since buying it, I do have a couple of point and press cameras which I never use ,the Film cameras are mostly manual ranging from the 1930's to the early 1990's .I'll have a better look and see if I can alter the black and white settings.
 
I think I will stick with the film for Black and white photography I'm not keen on sitting in front of a computer connected with photography as for me it's about being out in the real world as much as anything else. I will give the camera a try at present I still cannot work out how I got into the Black and white setting in the first place !
 
Do you want to share your photos on line Brad, or are you not bothered about that?
 
After much reading I have since found the camera will not shoot in black and white but has an edit mode that will convert later whilst saving the original ( not tried this yet) I'm not overly bothered about sharing them online although I have to admit I do now and again. Musicman are your black and whites straight off the camera ?
 
Last edited:
A quick attempt from an old photo first one is greyscale using Image Magic second is Gimp editor having altered the contrast oddly enough the second one is nearly twice the file size as the original colour photo.
BW.jpeg
bw.jpeg
 
Last edited:
A quick attempt from an old photo first one is greyscale using Image Magic second is Gimp editor having altered the contrast oddly enough the second one is nearly twice the file size as the original colour photo.

Assuming you saved at the same level of JPEG compression as the colour original, that will probably be because you have created more local tonal variation in the image by your changes. Especially in the sky, you can see the mottling effect.

In an uncompressed image, such as a TIFF file, every single pixel is given a tone value. In a 32 x 32 pixel image, that is 1024 pixels, each with its own tone level to record. That's a lot of data to keep about when large numbers of those pixels may be exactly the same or very close to each other.

Broadly, JPEG compression works by dividing the image up into square blocks and determining the amount of tonal variation present in each block. If the tone in, say, the sky is all one level of grey (or blue) or very close to it (say +/- 4 grey levels out of 256) then the algorithm averages the whole block to approximate to the same tone.

The algorithm might say 'this 32 x 32 pixel image is all grey level 236', which is quite succinct.

More tonal variation in a given area = more local contrast = more detail in the image

If there is a large number of tones present inside the 32 x 32 pixel block, then the algorithm divides it up into four 16 x 16 blocks and tries again. If each of the four is distinct, but within a level of tolerance (what you set as the level of compression) it can now list the tonal values as
  • Block 1: 240
  • Block 2: 232
  • Block 3: 227
  • Block 4: 238

Which is a bit more verbose.

If there is still more variation in blocks 3 and 4 than the tolerance allows, it subdivides those two blocks up into four more 4 x 4 pixel blocks (let's call each of those A, B C and D) and lists the grey levels in each of those, so now you have

  • Block 1: 240
  • Block 2: 232
  • Block 3A: 227
  • Block 3B: 221
  • Block 3C: 233
  • Block 3D: 227
  • Block 4A: 232
  • Block 4B: 238
  • Block 4C: 244
  • Block 4D: 238
This is obviously a lot more information to deal with, and it takes up more space.

The algorithm keeps going down, dividing the image into smaller and smaller blocks where more detail is present, perhaps to 1 x 1 pixel blocks until it has a complete description of every part of the image.

When you save a JPEG and set the compression levels, you are telling the algorithm how much tonal variation it will consider acceptable to describe with an average number within one block before moving on to analyse the next part of the image.

Large areas of flat colour (typically clear skies) can be described in a very concise manner; the compression can work efficiently to throw away pixel-level data to produce a small file size without sacrificing the quality of the image.

Areas with a lot of detail require many more smaller blocks to describe them, because it needs many more, smaller blocks. This leads to larger file sizes.

You can see this effect visually as you crank up the compression - smooth tone transitions begin to break up into squares as the algorithm is averaging out the values inside the blocks.

This is also why high ISO images tend to be larger on disk - compression alogrithims have to deal with lots of spurious detail from the noise in the image. Similarly, sharpening an image or increasing the global contrast tends to make a JPEG file larger as there is more variation of tones to record.

Your tonal adjustments have enhanced the noise inherent in the sky, brickwork, etc. which leads to a larger file size. Even between the two examples posted above, the second is nearly 50% larger on disk (172KB vs 115 KB).
 
Last edited:
I like all of them but think the film has more tonal range, what was happening with the first one ? Are you processing them yourself.

It was performance art that was staged at London Bridge station during the Olympics - they had different scenarios happening each day, usually quite amusing.

No, BW400CN is/was a C41 process mono film like Ilford XP2. I have never done C41 at home. I think those were probably processed by Peak Imaging; I scanned the negs and took them into my regular digital workflow in Lightroom.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Musicman the file differences make sense now as well as jpeg compression in general something I new nothing about. Unfortunately I don't get a lot of time for my photography so I have never really looked into the editing side of Digital photography I will need to find a good editing suit for use with the linux operating system. I really love film photography but 1 it's getting expensive with anything other than 35mm and 2 it seems a little daft to me to take analogue photos then convert to digital anyway !
 
In addition to what Rob @Musicman has stated, the Bayer filter (or colour filter array) creates tolerance (spatial inaccuracy) in edge (colour transistions). This is because it it effectively a 2x2 matrix made up of 2 green, one red and one blue filter. This means in each 2x2 'cell' two pixels are sensitive to green light, one for red and one fore blue. The Bayer conversion process then determines the colour value for each pixel in the resultant image, using information from its neighbours (and sometimes their neighbours, etc). So in a single sensor colour camera, spatial accuracy of an edge transition is compromised. It is also generating an approximate 24 bit colour value extrapolated from the Bayer filter result - not a true accurate RGB value

To get this spatial accuray, ie on a true pixel level, you need to either have a monochrome sensor (eg Leice Monochrom) or use a 3 chip camera (3 sensors using a prism beam splitter to make each sensor handle only R, G or B light. The latter will also give you the best colour accuracy.

I work in industrial machine vision and we hardly ever use colour cameras for measurement applications for these reasons, but I have used a 3 chip colour camera to determine the colour temperature of LED lighting arrays, determining the colour temperature from the resultant true RGB value.
 
To get this spatial accuray, ie on a true pixel level, you need to either have a monochrome sensor (eg Leice Monochrom) or use a 3 chip camera (3 sensors using a prism beam splitter to make each sensor handle only R, G or B light. The latter will also give you the best colour accuracy.

Sigma's Foveon X3 sensors, which stack three colour sensors vertically, are designed to address the same issue.
 
I think I will stick with the film for Black and white photography I'm not keen on sitting in front of a computer connected with photography as for me it's about being out in the real world as much as anything else. I will give the camera a try at present I still cannot work out how I got into the Black and white setting in the first place !

If you don't want to post process then film definitely has the advantage here.
I use both digital and film, and mostly prefer film. Mostly for the same reasons as you - film gives me results I like without having to fiddle too much in processing.

However I wouldn't discount digital altogether. Unless your carrying around multiple film bodies your limited by the film in your camera. I've walked around in the past with Tri-X in my camera and spotted something which would look amazing in colour. Or I've been shooting a low ISO film and had to give up as light fails.
Digital is more versatile - I can change the ISO to match conditions, and process the image to get the effect that I want - B&W vs Colour, High vs Low contrast, Subdued vs Vibrant colour etc.
The previously mentioned free Nik collection has film filters to emulate a range of film that can help on cutting down on processing time.
 
I see your point Ste_s many a times I've walked around with 3 or even 4 cameras for varying reasons where one digital would have done the same job. I must also admit to using my phone camera a lot as when I'm out with my dogs walking the canals the wide angle lens it has is ideal for taking photos of narrow boats moored on the same bank I am on, I have also used it for 3d and long exposure stuff and as a light meter, it's a shame I cannot change the lens to suit then I would be impressed
 
Broadly, JPEG compression works by dividing the image up into square blocks and determining the amount of tonal variation present in each block. If the tone in, say, the sky is all one level of grey (or blue) or very close to it (say +/- 4 grey levels out of 256) then the algorithm averages the whole block to approximate to the same tone.

The algorithm might say 'this 32 x 32 pixel image is all grey level 236', which is quite succinct.

More tonal variation in a given area = more local contrast = more detail in the image

If there is a large number of tones present inside the 32 x 32 pixel block, then the algorithm divides it up into four 16 x 16 blocks and tries again. If each of the four is distinct, but within a level of tolerance (what you set as the level of compression) it can now list the tonal values as...

That's an odd description of JPEG... have a look at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG#Encoding
 
Unfortunately I don't get a lot of time for my photography so I have never really looked into the editing side of Digital photography I will need to find a good editing suit for use with the linux operating system.

It's easier to think of digitised images as an opportunity to do what we did in the darkroom, but sat comfortably in a pleasant environment adjusting our images almost effortlessly, instead of in the dark with trays or drums of smelly chemicals and a fair bit of guesswork in the hope of generating something better than just OK.

Linux software tends to be a bit clunkier than that for windows/OSX, but there are still good applications available. For raw processing try either RawTherapee or darktable, and for polishing & cataloguing DigiKam is very good (much easier to use than GIMP).
 
It's easier to think of digitised images as an opportunity to do what we did in the darkroom, but sat comfortably in a pleasant environment adjusting our images almost effortlessly, instead of in the dark with trays or drums of smelly chemicals and a fair bit of guesswork in the hope of generating something better than just OK.

Linux software tends to be a bit clunkier than that for windows/OSX, but there are still good applications available. For raw processing try either RawTherapee or darktable, and for polishing & cataloguing DigiKam is very good (much easier to use than GIMP).

This plus every step in that steep learning curve with film was costing you money. Mono photgraphy is not that easy.
 
It's easier to think of digitised images as an opportunity to do what we did in the darkroom, but sat comfortably in a pleasant environment adjusting our images almost effortlessly,

Just for balance, one mans comfort and pleasant environment is another mans tedious and nauseating environment, but it takes all sorts to make a World.
 
(What I am about to say may be wrong and may use the wrong or laypersons terminology but it’s as I recall it...)

A digital sensor is not inherently colour (in this discussion please ignore Sigma’s Fovean sensors). Each pixel only measures intensity of light. To get RGB there is a filter in front of each pixel of the sensor so that it collects either Red, Green or Blue light. So you could say that it’s colour digital photography that’s false.

Leica do their M-monochrome camera which had no RGB filter and there have been a few Fuji camera which have been modified to remove the filter making them dedicated monochrome cameras.
 
Back
Top