Bit of a tricky one this?

[big soft moose]

...

removed , I cant be bothered

 

[Circuit Hero]

Sorry for the late reply, I've been in Vegas courtesy of 17sqn!

There is no breach of the OSA as neither the kit or location are subject to a classification of restricted or above. There's a general unwritten rule that just because something is public knowledge doesn't mean it should be publicised, but the MOD wouldn't have grounds to prosecute unless they could prove there was an item clearly visible in the image which was classified. This isn't the same as images taken on Ops, where often the FOB/Station in the background is itself classified.

 

[Sean_m]

Sorry for the late reply, I've been in Vegas courtesy of 17sqn!

There is no breach of the OSA as neither the kit or location are subject to a classification of restricted or above. There's a general unwritten rule that just because something is public knowledge doesn't mean it should be publicised, but the MOD wouldn't have grounds to prosecute unless they could prove there was an item clearly visible in the image which was classified. This isn't the same as images taken on Ops, where often the FOB/Station in the background is itself classified.

Alright for some #jealous

Thanks for clearing that up pal you've a much better way with words than I have. I left some cookies with andy on Thursday, if your lucky he might of saved you some

 

[Keith W]

Sorry Grez but I disagree

 

[PMK]

Sorry Grez but I disagree

This is going round in circles!

Sean - anymore news on this?

I would suggest getting a bit more 'serious'...

 

[Cheesy]

Hey Sean,

Glad I was able to help. Did you track down the DIN? I have a hardcopy with me in my camera bag at all times!

Great shots - keep 'em coming and in terms of a watermark, you are better off having the watermark on and risking some 'get rid of the watermark' comments than having your work stolen!

Regards,

Cheesy

 

[Circuit Hero]

Alright for some #jealous

Thanks for clearing that up pal you've a much better way with words than I have. I left some cookies with andy on Thursday, if your lucky he might of saved you some

Yeah it's been a good laugh, and even better I popped into the office on my way to the block and was told to go for a Cat2 medical this morning for a back-seater air-air job next week!

I'm pretty sure he's eaten them already, git!

Sorry Grez but I disagree

As military photographers, effectively those are the rules to which we work. Most Stations are subject to 'local laws' (which are usually part of Station Standing Orders, or SSOs). These will give a general nod as to whether images are allowed to be taken by anyone other than a military photographer, as well as all other rules for Station personnel.

Having only visited Cottesmore and not been stationed there, I'm unsure as to what their SSOs state. If there is nothing specifically written excluding the use of cameras by non-serving photographers, then the MOD have no grounds to prosecute, unless of course the image is of something classified as restricted or above, which breaches the OSA. However, photographing an active Station doesn't automatically breach the OSA, although can breach the SSOs if they state so.

As service photographers, we have the shield of the Media/Communications Officers (MCOs), and then the chap who runs the DNI database. These will decide whether an image is suitable or not for release. In this particular case, evidently 'the Sun' were clearly given access to photograph the same area as Sean, apparently meaning it was cleared by a Media Liason Officer (MLO), and was therefore in no danger of breaching the OSA.

This is exactly the same on deployed operations, the only difference being that all FOBs/Stations are classified as restricted+, in order to protect personnel from Incoming Direct Fire (IDF) attacks by denying an enemy the opportunity to gain an accurate idea of where things are (hence the huge MOD hunt of people posting Herrick/Telic images on Facebook a while back.)

Make no mistake, the MOD actively employ people to look for leaked images/footage/documents which breach the OSA, and they have a reputation of coming down hard on those caught. If Sean had breached the OSA, I dare say he would have already been reprimanded for it; that particular newspaper is open to speculation from both the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy MCOs in that particular area.

Hope that helps to clear things up.

 

[Keith W]

Hope that helps to clear things up.

No, more like muddied the waters a bit

Seriously though, you should know that every military establishment has a classification of being restricted.

Maybe a nod in the right direction will help get things cleared up for Sean, and for you for that matter.

Anyway I am out of this thread

 

[TCR4x4]

Bizarre that people who actually deal with this on a day to day basis are still getting told they are wrong. Quite clearly they arent so you may well be better off out of the thread.

 

[Keith W]

Bizarre that people who actually deal with this on a day to day basis are still getting told they are wrong. Quite clearly they arent so you may well be better off out of the thread.

Just to answer your smart ass remarks

You are assuming that I have no knowledge or understanding of this at all which would be a very very wrong assumption to make.

Now go away and make some smart remarks somewhere else, there's a good chap.

 

[Splog]

<snip>

Anyway I am out of this thread

Just to answer your smart ass remarks

Your are assuming that I have no knowledge or understanding of this at all which would be a very very wrong assumption to make.

Now go away and make some smart remarks somewhere else, there's a good chap.

Oooooops! ..... just playin!

 

[Jelster]

Anyway I am out of this thread

Or maybe not....

And just because somebody has a different view to you there is no need to get rude !

Steve

 

[kevshore]

Wow Sean! This thread is still going!! I thought it had all been sorted. Very interesting reading though. All of it.
I don't know where I stand with my thoughts now to be honest. I hope that the advice that you have been given is accurate mate and good luck to you.
I have this horrible gut feeling that Keith W may show his trump card and make a few people realise that he does know what he is talking about.
Maybe he can/cannot say what experience he has in this area, but he certainly seems confident about it.
I have no idea of what Keith does/has done for the MOD, but it may be worth following up?
I always take the attitude in life that 'you never know who you are rubbing shoulders with' and try to listen to everyones advice.
On a side not mate, I'll be at the base today, in the hope that the Spanish F18's may just arrive.

Kev.

 

[TCR4x4]

Just to answer your smart ass remarks

You are assuming that I have no knowledge or understanding of this at all which would be a very very wrong assumption to make.

Now go away and make some smart remarks somewhere else, there's a good chap.

What a charming man you are. Now toddle off out of the thread like you said you would, there's a good fellow.

 

[Circuit Hero]

Seriously though, you should know that every military establishment has a classification of being restricted.

As a civilian, you're not cleared under the OSA to view anything classified as restricted or above. If what you were saying was true, then you wouldn't be able to get within viewing distance of any military establishment. As it stands, there are family days, airshows, and at Coningsby there are at least 5 'spotters corners' for the public to come and watch the aircraft, as well as detailed views of the Station on google earth. At the BBMF end of the Station, you're taken on tours of their ASP, which is less than 200yds from that of 29sqn (which currently houses most of the Typhoons). There are items on the Typhoon which are TS, some which are unclassified. The classified items are hidden away so that they're not identified by Joe Public as the aircraft taxi/take-off. If you're referring to the classification being present because MOD property is protected by MPGS, then that's more to do with the safety of personnel than it is protecting classified items, although obviously they do both.

Not everything on an active Station bears a classification. Indeed, 70% of my work is involved in engineering, and these images are sent through open e-mail addresses under the pretext of being 'unclassified', not restricted.

I'm happy to hear the reasons why it is you think I'm wrong, and I'll try to address them in turn. But please don't throw your toys out of the pram and kick and scream that you know more than everyone else here. We're all adults here, and nobody is intimidated.

 

[Matt]

can those who have their willies out please put them away again, thanks. a perfectly good and insteresting thread in danger of being crapped on by some folk here. If you think im talking about you, go and sit in the corner and have a quiet word with yourself

 

[Sean_m]

This is going round in circles!

Sean - anymore news on this?

Tell me about it. Its stiiiiiiillll ongoing im afraid . Getting messed about by the pic editor who can tell more tales than Jackanory!!

Hey Sean,

Glad I was able to help. Did you track down the DIN? I have a hardcopy with me in my camera bag at all times!

Great shots - keep 'em coming and in terms of a watermark, you are better off having the watermark on and risking some 'get rid of the watermark' comments than having your work stolen!

Regards,

Cheesy

Yes i did mate thanks very much . A very detailed and intersting read with very straight to the point guidlines. Im gonna do what you do and keep it on me in my bag. Gold dust!!

Im looking into watermarking and trying to come up with something.

Yeah it's been a good laugh, and even better I popped into the office on my way to the block and was told to go for a Cat2 medical this morning for a back-seater air-air job next week!

I'm pretty sure he's eaten them already, git!



As military photographers, effectively those are the rules to which we work. Most Stations are subject to 'local laws' (which are usually part of Station Standing Orders, or SSOs). These will give a general nod as to whether images are allowed to be taken by anyone other than a military photographer, as well as all other rules for Station personnel.

Having only visited Cottesmore and not been stationed there, I'm unsure as to what their SSOs state. If there is nothing specifically written excluding the use of cameras by non-serving photographers, then the MOD have no grounds to prosecute, unless of course the image is of something classified as restricted or above, which breaches the OSA. However, photographing an active Station doesn't automatically breach the OSA, although can breach the SSOs if they state so.

As service photographers, we have the shield of the Media/Communications Officers (MCOs), and then the chap who runs the DNI database. These will decide whether an image is suitable or not for release. In this particular case, evidently 'the Sun' were clearly given access to photograph the same area as Sean, apparently meaning it was cleared by a Media Liason Officer (MLO), and was therefore in no danger of breaching the OSA.

This is exactly the same on deployed operations, the only difference being that all FOBs/Stations are classified as restricted+, in order to protect personnel from Incoming Direct Fire (IDF) attacks by denying an enemy the opportunity to gain an accurate idea of where things are (hence the huge MOD hunt of people posting Herrick/Telic images on Facebook a while back.)

Make no mistake, the MOD actively employ people to look for leaked images/footage/documents which breach the OSA, and they have a reputation of coming down hard on those caught. If Sean had breached the OSA, I dare say he would have already been reprimanded for it; that particular newspaper is open to speculation from both the Royal Air Force and Royal Navy MCOs in that particular area.

Hope that helps to clear things up.

Once again mate, THANKS your knowledge on this subject has been invaluable! Ill bring in some more biccies next week mate

Wow Sean! This thread is still going!! I thought it had all been sorted. Very interesting reading though. All of it.
I don't know where I stand with my thoughts now to be honest. I hope that the advice that you have been given is accurate mate and good luck to you.
I have this horrible gut feeling that Keith W may show his trump card and make a few people realise that he does know what he is talking about.
Maybe he can/cannot say what experience he has in this area, but he certainly seems confident about it.
I have no idea of what Keith does/has done for the MOD, but it may be worth following up?
I always take the attitude in life that 'you never know who you are rubbing shoulders with' and try to listen to everyones advice.
On a side not mate, I'll be at the base today, in the hope that the Spanish F18's may just arrive.

Kev.

Its been going on a bit Kev your right. Glad i started it tho ive learned a hell of a lot.

Didnt see any F18's today but i was in the hangar most of the day. I did see a Typhoon on max re-heat heading for the skies tho

can those who have their willies out please put them away again, thanks. a perfectly good and insteresting thread in danger of being crapped on by some folk here. If you think im talking about you, go and sit in the corner and have a quiet word with yourself

That made me chuckle

 

[kevshore]

I did see a Typhoon on max re-heat heading for the skies tho

You mean this one?

F18's arriving Monday for the week. Expected the supplies aircraft today. Didn't arrive. Busy day though.

Kev.

 

[Sean_m]

You mean this one?

F18's arriving Monday for the week. Expected the supplies aircraft today. Didn't arrive. Busy day though.

Kev.

That is an awesome pic Kev what lens were you using to get that close? Or is it a crop?

I had no idea F18's were turning up. No doubt we'll get a tannoy that no one can understand telling us

 

[Scouttrooper]

I hope the copyright is with the MOD, because then you owe me some money son! My taxes pay for the MOD, therefore it is 'My MOD'...... ka-ching!

 

[Sean_m]

I hope the copyright is with the MOD, because then you owe me some money son! My taxes pay for the MOD, therefore it is 'My MOD'...... ka-ching!

Haha nice try. I pay tax as well you know

 

[kevshore]

That is an awesome pic Kev what lens were you using to get that close? Or is it a crop?:

It's a bit of a crop. But shot with 300mm and 2 x converter. So 600mm on fullframe body.
I'll be there next Friday to shoot the f18's departing for home.
A few more from today mate:
Coningsby 13th May.

Kev.

 

[Sean_m]

It's a bit of a crop. But shot with 300mm and 2 x converter. So 600mm on fullframe body.
I'll be there next Friday to shoot the f18's departing for home.
A few more from today mate:
Coningsby 13th May.

Kev.

All cracking shots mate. Which spot do you shoot from? I don't move to coningsby till the end of the month so I'm not sure of the area yet?

My dad is mad keen on aircraft too and a keen photographer (he's the one that got me into it) so when he visits I'll take him out to get some pics

 

[kevshore]

You have to work your way around the base Sean as the light changes and the wind. I started at the end of runway 25, went to crashgate 1 and then the mound.
Coningsby is one of the best bases in the country for photography access. So long as members respect the local farmers land, access is good.
I've recently paid for a sign near the mound. to help us all keep the area open. Some were spoiling it for others by driving on farmland.

 

[Sean_m]

You have to work your way around the base Sean as the light changes and the wind. I started at the end of runway 25, went to crashgate 1 and then the mound.
Coningsby is one of the best bases in the country for photography access. So long as members respect the local farmers land, access is good.
I've recently paid for a sign near the mound. to help us all keep the area open. Some were spoiling it for others by driving on farmland.

Cheers mate I'll bear that in mind. There's always someone who spoils it :shrug:

Do you live local then?

 

[kevshore]

Not too far. About 40 mins from Coningsby.

 

[Sean_m]

I forgot to reply to my own thread :bonk:

Well, I got paid! So I've officially had my first picture published

Learned a lot as well so I'm well equipped now with all the documentation i need if anything like this happens again

 

[AlanoDale]

As for the copyright issue, glad you got it sorted.

Regarding the other issues, SSO's Security, will tell you all you need to know about use of private cameras.

 

[Sean_m]

As for the copyright issue, glad you got it sorted.

Regarding the other issues, SSO's Security, will tell you all you need to know about use of private cameras.

I've found a DIN printed in 2009 which details about the restricted areas which are stated in SSO's for each station. I'm at Coningsby now where I have a permit from the police flight to photograph around camp. Tbh there's not much that is restricted and there's an awful lot that it permits you to photograph. It's just the obvious stuff like inside cockpits with power on and down the intakes etc.

With typhoon being so secret it's quite surprising how relaxed it is, so I can't see Cottesmore being any stricter

I'm sure I would of heard by now if I had breached any laws

 

[AlanoDale]

Excellent, I'll have a look for that DIN myself. Sounds useful. Glad everything turned out well in the end.

 

[Sean_m]

Excellent, I'll have a look for that DIN myself. Sounds useful. Glad everything turned out well in the end.

Thanks

Are you in the forces then, which camp?
I'm starting a photography club here at Coningsby so if your local it might be something that interests you?

 

[Sean_m]

Thanks

Are you in the forces then, which camp?
I'm starting a photography club here at Coningsby so if your local it might be something that interests you?

Sorry, just seen your from Middlesex :bonk: Not exactly local