Bit of a tricky one this?

String said:
I can just hear it now......

Oh please don't take the paper to court, I'll lose my job, and you wouldn't want to feel responsible for that would you..........
Click to expand...

Yep, that's pretty much how he was going with it. I swiftly replied with "you and your company have broke the law by stealing from me, it's not my fault!".
 
It's not as if journalists worry about the effect their stories have on a anyone else, is it?
 
Sean_m said:
Would you mind sharing with where you get your information?

<snip>
Click to expand...

See Musicman's post :thumbs:

Yes, it's just my opinion Sean, but it is based on the basic default legal position on copyright, which you have posted links to earlier. And also a fair bit of personal experience which taught me very clearly how extensive employer's rights can be, often way beyond what you might think (not my pictures BTW ;)).

It seems to me that in this case the images are very clearly directly work related, but I'm not a solicitor and I would also say that with respect to the people you have spoken to and the other posters on here, nobody is in possession of both a) qualified legal knowledge, and b) all the facts relating to your case. You really need to sit down with a solictor and talk it through face to face for a definitive answer.

I would also repeat what I said earlier in that 99.9% of the time when you take pictures at work nobody gives a damn and the question of who strictly owns the legal rights just never arises. It's quite possible that you could go to the boss and he'll say no worries, do what you like with them. However, while that might give you the freedom in this case, it doesn't mean that any other pictures, past or future, will automatically be yours and given the potentially sensitive nature of your work it would probably be a good idea to get some real clarity on that.
 
String said:
Good for you.....

Just for him saying it double the invoice amount! :)
Click to expand...

I think ive been quite fair tbh and possibly a bit cheeky. He said this had never happened to him before (which i dont believe, playing dumb i reckon) so i told him to put this down to learning experience for him, albeit a pricey one :)

Stratman said:
It's not as if journalists worry about the effect their stories have on a anyone else, is it?
Click to expand...


I totally agree with you there. I didnt believe a single word he was saying, especially the part about him trying to contact me after the paper had been printed. At the end of the day he'll get what he deserves even if that is his p45. Like i said earlier its not my fault he got caught. Im sure hes probably done it hundreds of times without being caught, karma's a b***h though

HoppyUK said:
See Musicman's post :thumbs:

Yes, it's just my opinion Sean, but it is based on the basic default legal position on copyright, which you have posted links to earlier. And also a fair bit of personal experience which taught me very clearly how extensive employer's rights can be, often way beyond what you might think (not my pictures BTW ;)).

It seems to me that in this case the images are very clearly directly work related, but I'm not a solicitor and I would also say that with respect to the people you have spoken to and the other posters on here, nobody is in possession of both a) qualified legal knowledge, and b) all the facts relating to your case. You really need to sit down with a solictor and talk it through face to face for a definitive answer.

I would also repeat what I said earlier in that 99.9% of the time when you take pictures at work nobody gives a damn and the question of who strictly owns the legal rights just never arises. It's quite possible that you could go to the boss and he'll say no worries, do what you like with them. However, while that might give you the freedom in this case, it doesn't mean that any other pictures, past or future, will automatically be yours and given the potentially sensitive nature of your work it would probably be a good idea to get some real clarity on that.
Click to expand...

Fair enough. It seems in this case my instincts were correct. Im glad i didnt just give up and get scared off by people telling me id breached the OSA. I suppose theres not many people here with experience of MOD and Forces stuff, plus the document that gives me the copyright was only published in 2009 so ex-forces people who left before that date wouldnt know :shrug:

Well thanks to everyone who commented and pointed me in the right direction :thumbs:

Sean
 
HoppyUK said:
with respect to the people you have spoken to and the other posters on here, nobody is in possession of both a) qualified legal knowledge, and b) all the facts relating to your case.
Click to expand...

Actually, myself and Andy are in possession of both, which is why we urged him to phone the editor directly. With all due respect to you, founded advice or not, you're wrong on this occasion. He's seemingly working towards a result now though, so happy days.

Im sure hes probably done it hundreds of times without being caught
Click to expand...

Without trying to speculate too much, I dare say you're probably right. Works out much cheaper, but there's always the chance of being caught. I would've loved to hear how he "accidentally" stole an image! :lol:
 
Circuit Hero said:
Actually, myself and Andy are in possession of both, which is why we urged him to phone the editor directly. With all due respect to you, founded advice or not, you're wrong on this occasion. He's seemingly working towards a result now though, so happy days.

Cheers for today mate I'll try and pop in in with some Jaffa cakes or something :D

Without trying to speculate too much, I dare say you're probably right. Works out much cheaper, but there's always the chance of being caught. I would've loved to hear how he "accidentally" stole an image! :lol:
Click to expand...

He blamed someone else on the late shift for entering my pic on their database after he'd short listed it to be used :lol:

It's not like he had many to choose from as there was only 3 pics on the whole of google images showing the harriers in that state, two of them being mine and the other the Sun's!

He knew exactly what he was doing. Dodgy b****r :lol:
 
HoppyUK said:
See Musicman's post :thumbs:

Yes, it's just my opinion Sean, but it is based on the basic default legal position on copyright, which you have posted links to earlier. And also a fair bit of personal experience which taught me very clearly how extensive employer's rights can be, often way beyond what you might think (not my pictures BTW ;)).

It seems to me that in this case the images are very clearly directly work related, but I'm not a solicitor and I would also say that with respect to the people you have spoken to and the other posters on here, nobody is in possession of both a) qualified legal knowledge, and b) all the facts relating to your case. You really need to sit down with a solictor and talk it through face to face for a definitive answer.

I would also repeat what I said earlier in that 99.9% of the time when you take pictures at work nobody gives a damn and the question of who strictly owns the legal rights just never arises. It's quite possible that you could go to the boss and he'll say no worries, do what you like with them. However, while that might give you the freedom in this case, it doesn't mean that any other pictures, past or future, will automatically be yours and given the potentially sensitive nature of your work it would probably be a good idea to get some real clarity on that.
Click to expand...


Indeed!

Just to add to this from the MOD

I am a member of the Armed Forces / an MOD civil servant - do I still need a licence?

If you are in the Armed Services or an MOD civil servant you may use and reproduce MOD Crown copyright in the course of your official duties for MOD's internal purposes only. If you wish to use this material for any other purpose (for example, if you are writing a book or setting up a club) you will need a licence from DIPR. This applies even if you are reproducing material of which you yourself were the author.
Click to expand...
 
Sean_m said:
Sorry I don't see how this is relevant? I've already stated the copyright is mine and not the Crowns!
Click to expand...

It was this bit...

This applies even if you are reproducing material of which you yourself were the author
Click to expand...
 
Glad it got sorted.

I used to work for the MoD and after reading pages 1+2 of this thread grew quite concerned with the advice - I have many photos from over the years and was beginning to doubt the information that had been passed to me regarding the taking of images.


The problem with a public forum is you have no idea who is giving you advice
 
Splog said:
It was this bit...
Click to expand...

Maybe I understand better than you because I'm in the forces :shrug:

That part is referring to crown copyrighted images taken by someone in the forces ie a forces photographer. They are considered employees of the crown, so to speak.

Trust me I've done enough research to 100% say the copyright is mine. Unfortunately I can't reproduce the document that states this without written permission and I'm not stirring up another hornets nest
 
I have photo albums of pictures taken by my dad in the last war on campaigns in the desert and Norway and Italy. They survived, why should a few pics of mothballed Harriers not?
 
fatty-arbuckle said:
The problem with a public forum is you have no idea who is giving you advice
Click to expand...

Exactly right. I got the right advice in the end though. I wouldn't worry too much about your pictures :thumbs:
 
String said:
I have photo albums of pictures taken by my dad in the last war on campaigns in the desert and Norway and Italy. They survived, why should a few pics of mothballed Harriers not?
Click to expand...

It's all history at the end of the day. I'm sure in years to come people would like to see them :thumbs:
 
Sean_m said:
Maybe I understand better than you because I'm in the forces :shrug:

That part is referring to crown copyrighted images taken by someone in the forces ie a forces photographer. They are considered employees of the crown, so to speak.

Trust me I've done enough research to 100% say the copyright is mine. Unfortunately I can't reproduce the document that states this without written permission and I'm not stirring up another hornets nest
Click to expand...

No worries and congrats for getting the pic in the media :thumbs:
 
Sean_m said:
Yes mate just got off the phone from the picture editor. I hope it's not Andy winding me up :lol:

He gave me the sob story of how it was an accident and he's since tried to contact me via flickr blah blah. He's full of s*** basically and scared I'll take it further which I told him I will if we don't reach any compensation agreement. He's off to beg the editor not to sack him now and see what they can come up with. I'll prob hear off them tomoro or Monday :D
Click to expand...

I'd say be prepared for more bs, if he doesn't start by asking where to send the cheque then ask him to transfer you to the editor, that should give him a nudge in the right direction. Odds are he'll not have admitted to his boss and will do whatever he can to right the mistake privately, maybe offer a discounted price if you get a credit/apology in the next issue, that'll tell you if he's owned up to the boss ;)
 
cjevans said:
I'd say be prepared for more bs, if he doesn't start by asking where to send the cheque then ask him to transfer you to the editor, that should give him a nudge in the right direction. Odds are he'll not have admitted to his boss and will do whatever he can to right the mistake privately, maybe offer a discounted price if you get a credit/apology in the next issue, that'll tell you if he's owned up to the boss ;)
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. I think your right. He did mention on the phone how he doesn't have much money. He wasn't happy when I said "it's ok, if it goes to court it'll the paper I'm claiming against, not you". Obviously this would result in him being shown the door :exit:
 
Sean_m said:
...... Im glad i didnt just give up and get scared off by people telling me id breached the OSA. I suppose theres not many people here with experience of MOD and Forces stuff, plus the document that gives me the copyright was only published in 2009 so ex-forces people who left before that date wouldnt know :shrug:
Click to expand...

You would be surprised by how many people do have, both past and present, military/MOD experience that are members of this forum.

And I was not trying to scare you off by saying you had breached the OSA because make no mistake about it you have breached the OSA - What I was trying to do was help you out and get you to see that the copyright issue could be the least of your problems.

You need to realise that the OSA breach is an entirely separate matter but one that could rear its ugly head and land you in big trouble if it does.
 
Last edited:
An excellent thread, well done Sean for sticking with it and following matters through.

Please let us know how it all turns out !

Will you be reinstating the images in question on your Flickr account?
 
A really eye opening read. I'm glad it's semi sorted and it's about time the papers played fair. Imagine what they would have to pay in punitive damages if this was the USA!

How common is copyright breached when images are posted on sites like Photobucket etc?

Andy
 
Keith W said:
And I was not trying to scare you off by saying you had breached the OSA because make no mistake about it you have breached the OSA -.
Click to expand...

Could you elaberate on this as i have it on good authority from the Photographers (who I'm sure would know) that i havnt.

Are you or have you ever been in the forces?

BigBudgie said:
An excellent thread, well done Sean for sticking with it and following matters through.

Please let us know how it all turns out !

Will you be reinstating the images in question on your Flickr account?
Click to expand...

:thumbs: Thanks for reading. Ill put them back up when all this is done and dusted

Keebsuk said:
A really eye opening read. I'm glad it's semi sorted and it's about time the papers played fair. Imagine what they would have to pay in punitive damages if this was the USA!

How common is copyright breached when images are posted on sites like Photobucket etc?

Andy
Click to expand...

Thanks :D Its not all done with yet but very close.

I bet it happens all the time but not always found out.
 
Well he's been dragging this out for almost a week now with various excuses!

He assures me tho that it's it's the last thing on his mind when he goes to sleep and the first thing he thinks of when he wakes up :lol: what a load if old s***!
 
When I got a paper dragging it's heels to pay, i sent an email asking for the address to send the bill and for the non payment increase - got a reply asking for my bank account details so they can transfer the money.
 
Sean_m said:
Could you elaberate on this as i have it on good authority from the Photographers (who I'm sure would know) that i havnt.
Click to expand...

Seriously? What it there to elaborate?

It really inst rocket science Sean

Question: did you seek, and receive, permission to take a photograph in a restricted area* and to then place it on public view?

Answer: By your own admission in this thread the answer is no and that my friend lands you firmly in the proverbial as far as the OSA goes despite what your tog buddies say.

(* Restricted area being any military area that is not normally open and accessible to the general public)
 
Keith W said:
Seriously? What it there to elaborate?

It really inst rocket science Sean

Question: did you seek, and receive, permission to take a photograph in a restricted area* and to then place it on public view?

Answer: By your own admission in this thread the answer is no and that my friend lands you firmly in the proverbial as far as the OSA goes despite what your tog buddies say.

(* Restricted area being any military area that is not normally open and accessible to the general public)
Click to expand...

The answer Keith, is that I have it in BLACK & WHITE and straight from the mouth of people who actually know what they're talking about that I havn't done anything wrong. This, I have also stated in this thread. Do you actually know what your talking about or are you just he'll bent on not being wrong!?
 
phil8139 said:
When I got a paper dragging it's heels to pay, i sent an email asking for the address to send the bill and for the non payment increase - got a reply asking for my bank account details so they can transfer the money.
Click to expand...

Thanks Phil this might have to be the way that I go with this if the pic editor keeps messing me about
 
Sean_m said:
The answer Keith, is that I have it in BLACK & WHITE and straight from the mouth of people who actually know what they're talking about that I havn't done anything wrong. This, I have also stated in this thread. Do you actually know what your talking about or are you just he'll bent on not being wrong!?
Click to expand...

What you actualy said:

Sean_m said:
I've been researching documents and talking to people at work who know what they're talking about (including the professional RAF photographers) and I have it in black and white (an official MOD document) that the copyright belongs to ME!
Click to expand...

And what I have said to you is the copyright and OSA are 2 totaly seperate issues.

Yes I do know what I am talking about and I doubt very much you have talked to someone who can give you a difinitive answer on this ;)

Seriously mate it is not about being right or wrong, I was just trying to help you out so how about you drop the narky attitude?
 
Last edited:
Sean_m said:
The answer Keith, is that I have it in BLACK & WHITE and straight from the mouth of people who actually know what they're talking about that I havn't done anything wrong. This, I have also stated in this thread. Do you actually know what your talking about or are you just he'll bent on not being wrong!?
Click to expand...

A lot seems to be hanging on this document Sean, which appears to overturn all the normal rules.

Happy to have a look at it with you if you are unable to post details here - I only live a couple of miles from you (Norman Cross). But I have to say I'd be amazed if it's as watertight as you say. Not impossible though of course, which is why I think you need face to face professional* advice, to cover you past, present and future.

Edit: BTW I am not that professional advice :eek: Just looking to help.
 
Last edited:
Keith W said:
What you actualy said:

And what I have said to you is the copyright and OSA are 2 totaly seperate issues.

Yes I do know what I am talking about and I doubt very much you have talked to someone who can give you a difinitive answer on this ;)

Seriously mate in is not about being right or wrong, I was just trying to help you out so how about you drop the narky attitude?
Click to expand...

May I ask how you know what your talking about?

Restricted area :thinking: hardly restricted when pretty much anyone can ask to come and have a look around and are told yes, just bring ID so you can get a camp pass

Narky attitude :lol: you clearly aren't used to people disagreeing with you
 
HoppyUK said:
A lot seems to be hanging on this document Sean, which appears to overturn all the normal rules.

Happy to have a look at it with you if you are unable to post details here - I only live a couple of miles from you (Norman Cross). But I have to say I'd be amazed if it's as watertight as you say. Not impossible though of course, which is why I think you need face to face professional* advice, to cover you past, present and future.

Edit: BTW I am not that professional advice :eek: Just looking to help.
Click to expand...

The document is a DIN which is restricted so your right in thinking I can't share it on here or with anyone off station without permission.

I don't know if you've seen the post earlier with a link to a pilot on here ( cheesy I think his name is? )who shares his pictures. Well I have also spoken with him which is one of the main reasons I'm so confident in what I'm saying.

Cheers tho
 
Sean_m said:
Narky attitude :lol: you clearly aren't used to people disagreeing with you
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between disagreeing and having a narky attitude and your last reply to me fell into the narky attitude category
 
Sean_m said:
The document is a DIN which is restricted so your right in thinking I can't share it on here or with anyone off station without permission.

I don't know if you've seen the post earlier with a link to a pilot on here ( cheesy I think his name is? )who shares his pictures. Well I have also spoken with him which is one of the main reasons I'm so confident in what I'm saying.

Cheers tho
Click to expand...

You're welcome bud. Good luck with it all.

Just (yet another) opinion here, but I think the bottom line with this in practise is does anybody (in the MOD) actually give a damn? If they did, you'd have received a knock on the door long before now. They might even like what you've done (unofficially) given the political thing with the Harriers.

Your pictures probably come under the 'it really doesn't matter' category like 99.9% of images taken by service folks like you and a million others that are essentially private but also cross a certain line, if you want to view them from a different perspective.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not you who draws that line and I'm pretty certain that if the MOD wanted to make a fuss about it you would get totally nailed.
 
Last edited:
Keith W said:
There is a big difference between disagreeing and having a narky attitude and your last reply to me fell into the narky attitude category
Click to expand...

If that's the way it came across then I apologise because it wasn't intended that way
 
HoppyUK said:
You're welcome bud. Good luck with it all.

Just (yet another) opinion here, but I think the bottom line with this in practise is does anybody (in the MOD) actually give a damn? If they did, you'd have received a knock on the door long before now. They might even like what you've done (unofficially) given the political thing with the Harriers.

Your pictures probably come under the 'it really doesn't matter' category like 99.9% of images taken by service folks like you and a million others that are essentially private but also cross a certain line, if you want to view them from a different perspective.

The point I'm trying to make is that it is not you who draws that line and I'm pretty certain that if the MOD wanted to make a fuss about it you would get totally nailed.
Click to expand...

All good points mate :thumbs: There are some images out there that are a lot more "risky" than the ones I've got and I've never heard of anybody being locked up for it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top