Bit of a tricky one this?

Sean_m

Sean_m

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Sean
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Hi all. Im relatively new to photography and so im not sure where i stand on copyright laws etc

Anyway, i used to work on 1 SQN RAF and as such took some pictures of the Harriers in the Hangar in a mothballed state during my last few days before i got posted on. This is obviously quite an interesting subjuct to some people at the moment. At the time i didnt have any special written permission to take any pictures, just got the nod from the people i directly work with. As far as i was concerned the SQN had been dis-banded so didnt exist anymore, and the aircraft where no longer in service so i wasnt doing anything wrong by taking some pictures for my memories.

I posted the pictures on flickr into a group pool called BAE Harrier and they have had quite a few views. I logged onto my face book today and saw one ofmy friends in the Navy posted a link to a story saying the Harriers maybe being brought back into service.

The story is on the Portsmouth News Page and is headed with one of my pictures. Here is a link to the story http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/lo...for_a_u_turn_over_scrapped_harriers_1_2634058

and here is my picture on flickr

As youi can see there is no doubt that they are the same picture.


Mothballed Harrier by Sean_Morgan, on Flickr

As far as im aware i have set the copyright on flickr so the picture belongs to me however im not too sure what im doing with this.

Neither the paper or the journalist asked my permission to use the picture in their story so what im wandering is, where do i stand?

Should they at least of written or e-mailed to see if they could use it and have they broken any copyright laws?

Im not after any amount of money (although i wouldnt say no it) but it would of been nice to at least see my name next to it.

Im thinking that they probably thought because i a long away way from Portsmouth than i wouldnt be reading their paper.

Does anyone have any help or advice with what i should do about it , if anything at all?

Thanks

Sean
 
get and save some screenshots right now.

yes, they have broken copyright law, yes, you should make some money from it.
 
Make sure your original is safe, backed up and available if required. Then invoice the paper for three times the going rate and tell them if they don't pay you will take action against them. Friggin papers ets just help themselves even without asking or even a nod of thanks in the paper for your picture.
 
Cheers for the responses guys. I've now taken some screenshots and got the original backed up a couple of times.

Not really sure how much my pic would be worth or how to write an invoice : bang:

I'll do some more research and see if any other cheeky b*****s have used it in any other papers!
 
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.. and one more reason not to use Flickr?
 
I hope you get some sort of recompense from the paper, it really bugs me when papers just use a shot without even asking, I also however hate the attitude that it is a reason not to use sites like flickr, as how else are people going to share photos, this type of thing is always going to be a risk of putting a photo online so it is something we have to live with unfortunately, what is important is not to allow such theft to go un punished, if I ever get this type of situation I pursue the companies like a blood hound

As maybe if photographers stop letting it slide and punish the culprits with bills each and every time they steal then they will stop.

I wonder every time I see a thread like this why criminal proceeding are never undertaken as let's look at it, it is as clearer example of theft as ever has been....

Matt
MWHCVT
 
TCR4x4 said:
Ive seen a picture very similar to yours above, but looking from the end of the hangar to the oustide. with the hangar doors open. Could that have been yours too? I cant remember exactly where it was though, but Ill try to find out. Saying that it might have even been on here!!


***Found it***

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...riers-idle-as-Top-Guns-struggle-in-Libya.html
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Thanks for taking the time dig that picture out :thumbs:, i know which one you mean it was my local paper. Its not one of mine however im guesiing they were either allowed in for publicity reasons or its been stolen from someone else:thinking:


artyman said:
Interesting my next door neighbour works for this rag, he's just gone out so can't run it by him.
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Hmmm id be interested to know his feeling on this. Thanks for replying

webbEvents said:
off course if you were "on duty" at the time, the copyright belongs to the MOD!.
Webby
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I see were your coming from but as it happens id finished work and was taking the pictures "in my own time".

I was concerned at first about my pictures but different camps have different rules. For example i now work at RAF Coningsby where the Typhoon is based and no-one is allowed to take any pictures of anything on base without written permission from the station commander. I was not aware of any such such rules whilst based at RAF Cottesmore.

Plus we had lots of attention at Cottesmore towards the end of Harrier's time were probably thousands of pictures were taken in the exact same hangar were i took mine?

Photodiva said:
.. and one more reason not to use Flickr?
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Each to there own i suppose and as Matt says below people who arent proffesional photographers with their own wbsite etc need somewhere to show their pictures :thinking:

MWHCVT said:
I hope you get some sort of recompense from the paper, it really bugs me when papers just use a shot without even asking, I also however hate the attitude that it is a reason not to use sites like flickr, as how else are people going to share photos, this type of thing is always going to be a risk of putting a photo online so it is something we have to live with unfortunately, what is important is not to allow such theft to go un punished, if I ever get this type of situation I pursue the companies like a blood hound

As maybe if photographers stop letting it slide and punish the culprits with bills each and every time they steal then they will stop.

I wonder every time I see a thread like this why criminal proceeding are never undertaken as let's look at it, it is as clearer example of theft as ever has been....

Matt
MWHCVT
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Thanks Matt, i hope i get some recompense too even if its just my name next to MY picture. I totally agree with you about using sites like flickr, its something thats new new to me and i enjoy sharing my photos because im proud of them.
 
Stratman said:
Good article here about the difference between civil and criminal copyright and your remedies.
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Thanks for that link, its an interesting read. Sounds like peope (newspapers) just steal whatever they want beacuse the compensation thay have to pay wont be much different to if they tried to obtain a license for a photograph in the first place!!

Cheers mate :thumbs:
 
Copyright may have been broken, but from what you've said the copyright is not yours. They were taken in direct connection with your work and whether that was out of hours or not is irrelevant, so all rights belong to your employer.

It's possible that whoever used the pictures got clearance, and since they're not yours there is technically no need to either ask or inform you! Sorry, but that's the legal position.

I understand how you feel but be careful if you're thinking of taking anyone to task. The images are not legally yours and if the rights holder objects you could even be stopped from using them yourself. Employer's rights are widely misunderstood in this area, and underestimated.
 
HoppyUK said:
Copyright may have been broken, but from what you've said the copyright is not yours. They were taken in direct connection with your work and whether that was out of hours or not is irrelevant, so all rights belong to your employer.

It's possible that whoever used the pictures got clearance, and since they're not yours there is technically no need to either ask or inform you! Sorry, but that's the legal position.

I understand how you feel but be careful if you're thinking of taking anyone to task. The images are not legally yours and if the rights holder objects you could even be stopped from using them yourself. Employer's rights are widely misunderstood in this area, and underestimated.
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From what I understand the copyright belongs to the photographer. Although no doubt I was in a privileged position to take the shots I did, I didn't take them for the RAF and I wasn't instructed by the RAF to take them so therefore the copyright belongs to me?

Like I said in my original post I'm not experienced in this area so I could be completely wrong.

The MOD hadn't contacted me to tell me I was in the wrong, and I'm sure they would see the picture in the paper and have say about it, if it shouldn't have been used?
 
Sean_m said:
From what I understand the copyright belongs to the photographer. Although no doubt I was in a privileged position to take the shots I did, I didn't take them for the RAF and I wasn't instructed by the RAF to take them so therefore the copyright belongs to me?

Like I said in my original post I'm not experienced in this area so I could be completely wrong.

The MOD hadn't contacted me to tell me I was in the wrong, and I'm sure they would see the picture in the paper and have say about it, if it shouldn't have been used?
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No. If you are an employee (ie not freelance) then any pictures you take in connection with work - at any time, anywhere - belong to your employer. Even stuff taken indirectly through work can also come under this.

It is a common misunderstanding. The employee situation completely overturns the normal 'I took the pictures, so they're mine' scenario.

There are various definitions of employee, but an easy one is if you have tax deducted at source, though there are others even if this doesn't apply. However, from what you've said it appears you are indeed an employee in the formal sense, and the images are clearly taken in direct relation to your work. Pretty much an open and shut case I'm afraid - copyright of the images does not belong to you.
 
HoppyUK said:
No. If you are an employee (ie not freelance) then any pictures you take in connection with work - at any time, anywhere - belong to your employer. Even stuff taken indirectly through work can also come under this.

It is a common misunderstanding. The employee situation completely overturns the normal 'I took the pictures, so they're mine' scenario.

There are various definitions of employee, but an easy one is if you have tax deducted at source, though there are others even if this doesn't apply. However, from what you've said it appears you are indeed an employee in the formal sense, and the images are clearly taken in direct relation to your work. Pretty much an open and shut case I'm afraid - copyright of the images does not belong to you.
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I disagree with you there.

So because im in the RAF and therefore employed by the MOD, any pictures i take of Military aircraft or anything military for that matter doesnt belong to me whether or not i was working at the time?

Say for example i work in Morrisons and take a picture of for example a bottle of Lemonade on a shelf in Morrisons, then the copyright belongs to them? That doesnt seem right at all?

This is the first site that came up on a google search http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p16_photography_copyright

Unless this is open to interpretation and we therfore both have different opinions of it, then it seems to me what youve said isnt correct :thinking:
 
Sean_m said:
I disagree with you there.

So because im in the RAF and therefore employed by the MOD, any pictures i take of Military aircraft or anything military for that matter doesnt belong to me whether or not i was working at the time?

Say for example i work in Morrisons and take a picture of for example a bottle of Lemonade on a shelf in Morrisons, then the copyright belongs to them? That doesnt seem right at all?

This is the first site that came up on a google search http://www.copyrightservice.co.uk/protect/p16_photography_copyright

Unless this is open to interpretation and we therfore both have different opinions of it, then it seems to me what youve said isnt correct :thinking:
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Seems pretty clear to me, under point 1, item 1. And yes, if you were working for Morrisons in the situation you've quoted, apart from the question of permission on private property (which also apply to you, but is not directly relevant here) the pictures would not be yours.

The point is, if you are in a position to take certain pictures because of your work, then they belong to your employer. Your only defense, and that is moot, would be that they are entirely private, and could have been taken anywhere, such as pictures of your mates in the canteen or something and are completely unrelated to work. But that's obviously not the case here.

And bear in mind that it's the MOD we're taking about here... :nono:

Take legal advice on it. If you explain to a solictitor they should be able to tell you in two seconds. Citizens Advice might too, but copyright is complex and often appears to run counter to natural justice so I suspect they'd refer you to an expert.

I'm not an expert, but I do have first hand experience of this kind of thing and a lot of legal bills to go with it. 99.9% of the time it's never an issue so doesn't come up and everyone carries on regardless, but that's the law. Google some more and I'm sure you'll find examples.
 
HoppyUK said:
Seems pretty clear to me, under point 1, item 1. And yes, if you were working for Morrisons in the situation you've quoted, apart from the question of permission on private property (which also apply to you, but is not directly relevant here) the pictures would not be yours.

The point is, if you are in a position to take certain pictures because of your work, then they belong to your employer. Your only defense, and that is moot, would be that they are entirely private, and could have been taken anywhere, such as pictures of your mates in the canteen or something and are completely unrelated to work. But that's obviously not the case here.

And bear in mind that it's the MOD we're taking about here... :nono:

Take legal advice on it. If you explain to a solictitor they should be able to tell you in two seconds. Citizens Advice might too, but copyright is complex and often appears to run counter to natural justice so I suspect they'd refer you to an expert.

I'm not an expert, but I do have first hand experience of this kind of thing and a lot of legal bills to go with it. 99.9% of the time it's never an issue so doesn't come up and everyone carries on regardless, but that's the law. Google some more and I'm sure you'll find examples.
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Were obviously both reading this article very differently. Yes I am an employee of "the company" but I took the pictures for myself and not for "the company"?
Quote

If the photographer is an employee of the company the photos are taken for, or is an employee of a company instructed to take the photos, the photographer will be acting on behalf of his/her employer, and the company the photographer works for will own the copyright.

End quote

Anyway I'm back at work on Tuesday so I'll be able to find out for sure then.
 
Sean

I am inclined to agree with you.


"If the photographer is an employee of the company the photos are taken for, or is an employee of a company instructed to take the photos, the photographer will be acting on behalf of his/her employer, and the company the photographer works for will own the copyright."

My interpretation of the above is that, if an employee takes a photograph FOR a company, or, is instructed to do so then the copyright remains with the company.

Yours was clearly for your own interest.

The permission side of things doesn't come into it.

Just my opinion.
 
I wouldn't be making such a big issue of this if I were you Sean because copyright could become the least of your problems here.

You have stated you are currently still serving in the RAF so the "finished work" and "in your own time" thing doesn't wash.

You have also stated you did not have any sort of written permission to take these pictures yet you still took them and then made them publicly accessible via flickr and that my friend very much means you have breached the official secrets act.

I would think very very carefully what you do next in regard to this if I were you Sean
 
My view is that you probably broke the law to get those pictures so chances are you don't own the copyright.

But then again I'm no expert so I could be completely wrong :)
 
Hoppy is on good ground by saying that the MOD own the photos regardless of whether Sean was there during working hours or not. My company is the same and so are many others. I can walk in to my place of work during my time off, take a picture of a dustbin and the photo still belongs to the company. We have it in black and white [no HDR though] in our staff regulations. The MOD also has it written somewhere, not on a station by station basis, but in blanket coverage form. I did hobby photography in the RAF in the 70s. It was the case then and I doubt that it has changed since. It wasn't a problem for the MOD then, with no computers or internet.

Yes, I can take photos at work without any hassle, for my own personal viewing and pleasure, but the minute feathers get ruffled by releasing something to the public which might attract unwanted attention then the black helicopters will descend.
 
Keith W said:
I wouldn't be making such a big issue of this if I were you Sean because copyright could become the least of your problems here.

You have stated you are currently still serving in the RAF so the "finished work" and "in your own time" thing doesn't wash.

You have also stated you did not have any sort of written permission to take these pictures yet you still took them and then made them publicly accessible via flickr and that my friend very much means you have breached the official secrets act.

I would think very very carefully what you do next in regard to this if I were you Sean
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You may well have a very good point there I'll dig out the rules and regs when I'm back in work.

As far as it goes with the paper using my picture it's probably a good thing that they didn't put my name next to it. They have still however broken copyright laws, maybe not mine though.
 
WillyB said:
Sean

I am inclined to agree with you.

"If the photographer is an employee of the company the photos are taken for, or is an employee of a company instructed to take the photos, the photographer will be acting on behalf of his/her employer, and the company the photographer works for will own the copyright."

My interpretation of the above is that, if an employee takes a photograph FOR a company, or, is instructed to do so then the copyright remains with the company.

Yours was clearly for your own interest.

The permission side of things doesn't come into it.

Just my opinion.
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That's exactly how I read it too. Just seems that maybe it doesn't apply to me :thinking;
 
Send an email to the paper, tell them they have used your picture without permission, if they have permission from the MOD, you will find out pretty quick. Simples really, even better CALL the picture editor, they will be helpful.
 
I'm with Hoppy on this one.

Firstly, even if you did have verbal permission to take the pictures, you have nothing in writing. They were taken on private property, so I doubt whether you would be allowed to use them for commercial use, and thirdly, you work for the RAF, and whilst you may not have been on duty, the copyright to ANY image you take while on their land which can be related to your work in any way belongs to them.

Now, as for the paper pinching it, well that's well out of order, but not much you can do about it now....

Steve
 
phil8139 said:
Send an email to the paper, tell them they have used your picture without permission, if they have permission from the MOD, you will find out pretty quick. Simples really, even better CALL the picture editor, they will be helpful.
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Cheers Phil I've been considering giving them a call. I can't see them having permission from the MOD to use it, seems like they do what they want. If they say they have then that's the end of it I suppose. I'm sure in their minds they rather breach "my" copyright then the MODs?
 
Jelster said:
I'm with Hoppy on this one.

Firstly, even if you did have verbal permission to take the pictures, you have nothing in writing. They were taken on private property, so I doubt whether you would be allowed to use them for commercial use, and thirdly, you work for the RAF, and whilst you may not have been on duty, the copyright to ANY image you take while on their land which can be related to your work in any way belongs to them.

Now, as for the paper pinching it, well that's well out of order, but not much you can do about it now....

Steve
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It's a bit of a grey area I think. Say if I was at an airshow at the base where I work, with thousands of other people all taking pictures, or a family day. Who would own the copyright then to all them pictures?
 
To be honest I have always interpreted the employer copyright situation in the same way as Sean. I always read it that photos that were taken under direction of the employer they had copyright on.

It may be worth seeking legal advise to clarify.
 
I'd still send them an invoice. Any correspondence that you send is only going to be between them and yourselves. I doubt they're going to grass you up to the MOD (who have probably already seen it anyway) if they've stolen the picture in the first place.

Worst that can happen is they say no, or that they already have permission from the MOD (unlikely).

The papers seem to do this a lot. Treating Flickr as public domain.
 
neil_g said:
To be honest I have always interpreted the employer copyright situation in the same way as Sean. I always read it that photos that were taken under direction of the employer they had copyright on.

It may be worth seeking legal advise to clarify.
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Cheers for the reply Neil. It's the first time I've ever researched it so I'm not fully "genned" up on the subject yet.

Luckily I can get some free confidential legal advice at work which I suppose is a bit ironic in this case :lol:
 
Urban Grimshaw said:
I'd still send them an invoice. Any correspondence that you send is only going to be between them and yourselves. I doubt they're going to grass you up to the MOD (who have probably already seen it anyway) if they've stolen the picture in the first place.

Worst that can happen is they say no, or that they already have permission from the MOD (unlikely).

The papers seem to do this a lot. Treating Flickr as public domain.
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Not a bad idea that and one I might pursue. I think your right about grassing me up because they would be grassing themselves up too.

As for an invoice I wouldn't know how much to ask for? £100 perhaps?
 
Sean, I would go and check the rules first mate about aforementioned 'offical secrets act'.
If you do send an invoice, it could get you into bother when it is found out that not only did you take pictures, but you sold them to the press. At least at the moment, you could say they were for personal use?
I'm not sure how the MOD would look at this either. But as you know, there was a lot of criticism about the cut backs and taking the Harrier out of service. They may well say that this only helps fuel the fire.
Just playing devils advocate here mate. Do some checking...

Kev.
 
kevshore said:
Sean, I would go and check the rules first mate about aforementioned 'offical secrets act'.
If you do send an invoice, it could get you into bother when it is found out that not only did you take pictures, but you sold them to the press. At least at the moment, you could say they were for personal use?
I'm not sure how the MOD would look at this either. But as you know, there was a lot of criticism about the cut backs and taking the Harrier out of service. They may well say that this only helps fuel the fire.
Just playing devils advocate here mate. Do some checking...

Kev.
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He didn't sell them to the press they stole them from his personal website, he only asked for compensation after they stole them and published his personal pictures. Big difference.
 
Once he takes payment, surely he has sold them? They will have an invoice to show that. :shrug:


Kev.
 
Cheers Kev I fully appreciate everything your saying and that's why I'm gonna do a lot of research and get as much advice as anything before I ask for any money or recognition.

Your right swanseamale47 I've never tried to sell anything to the press. I simply put the pics up because it's of interest to me and apparently over 500 other people who've viewed it. Not so sure it was a great idea now tho :thinking:
 
Sean_m said:
Cheers Kev I fully appreciate everything your saying and that's why I'm gonna do a lot of research and get as much advice as anything before I ask for any money or recognition.

Your right swanseamale47 I've never tried to sell anything to the press. I simply put the pics up because it's of interest to me and apparently over 500 other people who've viewed it. Not so sure it was a great idea now tho :thinking:
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You're welcome Sean, I just don't want to see you hauled in front of the Staion Commander who has a copy of an invoice that shows payment for said photo.
He won't care how the transaction came about.Maybe it's better to let it slide away....

Do keep us informed on what you decide though.


Kev.
 
kevshore said:
You're welcome Sean, I just don't want to see you hauled in front of the Staion Commander who has a copy of an invoice that shows payment for said photo.
He won't care how the transaction came about.Maybe it's better to let it slide away....

Do keep us informed on what you decide though.

Kev.
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Yeah that certainly wouldn't help my promotion prospects :lol:

I'll let you know how I get on, not back in work till Tuesday tho.

Nice profile pic by the way, have you got the copyright for it :lol:
 
This is exactly why I put a copyright watermark on the photos I post online! Someone criticised me for that recently when I posted them on here, but the press are happy to steal pics. Be aware that in the past some papers have refused to cough up by claiming that they're publishing them 'in the public interest'.
 
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