Bit of a Rant , The Cost of Photography

Talking of which i'm going down the beach with my £100 setup and try and not get punched while tying to snap some candids. I'd be much more upset if i got punched and dropped a £2000 setup! :)
 
I totally agree but I find myself getting more irritated with the people who claim they know what they're doing but using the wrong equipment.

I'm a firm believer that if you're selling pictures you needs the means to capture them the best way possible and that includes having the knowledge, technique and equipment.

I keep seeing startup portrait and wedding photographers with their 6 month old Canon 100d's posting pictures that are grainy, soft and out of focus. I'm also surprised I haven't heard any stories yet of days being ruined due to lack of a backup camera or an SD card that's died (because of lack of dual slots).

But yeah if you can afford the equipment but can't afford the time and commitment required to learn the skill then that's a shame.
 
rjbell said:
Talking of which i'm going down the beach with my £100 setup and try and not get punched while tying to snap some candids. I'd be much more upset if i got punched and dropped a £2000 setup! :)
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I am paranoid about getting mugged! which is probably the biggest downside of expensive gear..
 
I understand your point GG but it doesn't get to me. At times I find it somewhat amusing.

I think it is a product of a number of factors.

Advertising tells us that camera X can do all manner of things and produces superb photos.

This is understandable as no manufacturer is going to say, “Camera X can do all manner of things and produces superb photos, in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.”

The advertising leads some people to believe with camera X they will get superb pictures. Without putting in into words they think it is the camera that takes the photo.

There is also (and this might just be an old fart talking here) I believe the feeling, from some, that everything must be immediate and effortless. If you have an expensive camera then you must get great photos and you must get then NOW, without taking any time to read, listen to others, learn or practice. Even if they do listen then the answer they want is, “Set the camera to X and Y and every shot will be great.”

However, on here and other photography forums I have used, I think most people are willing to learn and put in the effort and those of us who have used film tend to have learnt because the cost of getting a film developed and printed only to find you have loads of rubbish, focussed the mind very well.

Dave
 
rjbell said:
I give up chasing to next upgrade or the next best lens etc.. it really doesn't make you happy. Shooting sharper doesnt make a better image it just makes a sharper one. I've seen plenty of really sharp really s*** images in my time.
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I so agree with this. I see so many razor sharp photos of a bird sitting on a branch, or a man waiting at a bus stop. And the comments are all about how nice and sharp it looks. To me it still doesn't tell a story, to me there is no involvement. It is to me basically just a sharp image, so what.

Some of the best photographs I've seen capture a fantastic moment, a real story, get my interest and I am intrigued to learn more. Yet technically one could argue that they are grainy, not that sharp, perhaps have missed focus slightly etc. Ok I admit I don't currently have a money issue, and up-to a few years ago I had better than L Lenses I had the Nikon Holy Trinity :P And very good they were, seriously good, however I much prefer my inferior M43 format as I have them more with me, and it allows me to capture more of those moments that are important to me.

Ok, perhaps not to everyones taste but I like them and do think this include some of the 'recent' iconic photographs. Are they sharp? No. Are they clean? No. Do they capture the moment, tell a story and invoke some emotion. Hell yes.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/01/world/gallery/iconic-images/

Always good to have a rant, and at times it can be frustrating, but I don't think it should hold back your photography one single bit.

PS. My favourites are my secondhand film cameras, quality lenses and bodies that are very cheap.
 
You can get excellent results with an entry level DSLR and a kit lens.

If you want to expand on that without breaking the bank, you can use your entry level DSLR with a set of primes (35mm f/2, 50mm f/1.8 and 85mm f/1.8), all relatively cheap and all will get you superb image quality. I really don't know why Canon shooters get hung up on L glass as those primes (and a lot of Sigmas) will provide better IQ than some of the L zooms, are faster and will provide a shallower DOF if you want it. Shoot raw and process competently.

I agree that its disheartening to see people with "all the gear and no idea" but I tend to laugh at those, and move on :)

Anyway, I went in to this thread expecting some nudity? :confused:
 
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odd jim said:
You can get excellent results with an entry level DSLR and a kit lens.

If you want to expand on that without breaking the bank, you can use your entry level DSLR with a set of primes (35mm f/2, 50mm f/1.8 and 85mm f/1.8), all relatively cheap and all will get you superb image quality.
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Definitely agree about the 50mm f1.8 (Canon) - it is a superbly sharp lens and I have taken many excellent pictures with it - in fact I rate it as easily the quality of an L glass lens.
.
 
Following up from what Phil V and dejongj said, better gear in itself doesn't make you a better photographer. Sharper, noise-free photographs are only better photographs if technical image quality is the criteria by which you judge a photograph. Look at some of the best images in history, and chances are you'll be looking at images taken on primitive (by today's standard) equipment, but they are memorable not necessarily because of their technical excellence of the equipment they were taken on, but because of the brilliance of the execution by the photographer in capturing the moment, the light, etc.

I'm not disputing the fact that for certain genres a big fast lens is of enormous benefit in producing images that are considered the norm, but as alluded to before there's no substiture for creativity, learning good technique and hard work in producing great photographs .
 
My thought on this is that my cheap(ish) Canon 650D with its kit lens is technically more competent than any Victorian camera and the vast majority of 20th century cameras - yet people made photographs I am still in awe of.

There is only one thing my 650D won't do well and that is photograph inside small mediaeval churches with natural light on a dull winter's day. Not sure any camera can do well there as the problem is the low dynamic range of the scene - you cannot capture what is not there.
 
Personally I am sicking of seeing people whinging about how they cant afford better equipment.. find a hobby you can afford then..

I started with the camera in my avatar and its took me 12 years of wheeling and dealing and making photogrpahy pay to get the equipment i have... i could have given up and cried about it.. but I didn't.. i kept going and now I made it :)
 
dancook said:
I find it seriously difficult to buy entry level / basic gear for any new hobby I become remotely interested in, I do get more enjoyment from learning something without the frustration of equipment limitations - it can be an expensive habit, but I'm happy..

I started to play a bit of badminton with colleagues, I bought a £100+ racket - I only played three games.
I started to learn the piano, so bought a digital piano to practice on, it cost £1500 - I got asked if I was playing gigs by the guy helping me carry it to the car.. nope just a beginner!

Piano and Photography have stuck with me though, so I'm glad I have decent gear.
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I've been searching the net for the badminton forums where someone would have been ranting about you.....
 
KIPAX said:
Personally I am sicking of seeing people whinging about how they cant afford better equipment.. find a hobby you can afford then..

I started with the camera in my avatar and its took me 12 years of wheeling and dealing and making photogrpahy pay to get the equipment i have... i could have given up and cried about it.. but I didn't.. i kept going and now I made it :)
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Strange that you refer to it as "i kept going and now I made it" as if owning expensive kit was your original goal. I consider I 'made it' when a gallery approached me rather than the other way round.
 
john.margetts said:
Strange that you refer to it as "i kept going and now I made it" as if owning expensive kit was your original goal..
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which it was... what do you mean as if? wasnt it clear ? :)

the subject is about gear isnt it?
 
I do find the upgrade path amusing, I would say it's the marketing folk but it's really not, it seems to be the average forum member and the review sites that really push new gear hard.

How many times here or elsewhere do you see people suggest something that's 'just' out of the clearly defined budget that somebody has because that gear is faster/better? How often do you see people suggest that mirrorless isn't up to continuous AF etc etc (those are just examples, but you get my point).

The arguments over the minute differences in lenses etc, really 98% of people who buy this stuff are never going to actually appreciate the difference or it affect them in any way.

When I started out with motorsport I found it immensely frustrating seeing guys with £2k+ of gear taking bland generic photos. I'm older and wiser now and looking back, my D50 was easily up to the task and has still taken some of the best photos I've ever taken.
 
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kennysarmy said:
I've been searching the net for the badminton forums where someone would have been ranting about you.....
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The guy who organised our badminton group trips plays competitively with a cheaper racket than what I bought.. :D he didn't complain though, I certainly wasn't better than him... ... .... .yet
 
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gothgirl said:
I would love to be a profesional photographer , I would love to buy L glass , Full Frame and really work at it...
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So what exactly is stopping you? As ever, @Phil V talks sense:
Phil V said:
If you want to be a pro, stop looking at the hobby and consider it like any business. You need to invest in the kit required to fulfill your business plan....
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dejongj said:
I so agree with this. I see so many razor sharp photos of a bird sitting on a branch, or a man waiting at a bus stop. And the comments are all about how nice and sharp it looks. To me it still doesn't tell a story, to me there is no involvement. It is to me basically just a sharp image, so what.

Some of the best photographs I've seen capture a fantastic moment, a real story, get my interest and I am intrigued to learn more. Yet technically one could argue that they are grainy, not that sharp, perhaps have missed focus slightly etc. Ok I admit I don't currently have a money issue, and up-to a few years ago I had better than L Lenses I had the Nikon Holy Trinity :p And very good they were, seriously good, however I much prefer my inferior M43 format as I have them more with me, and it allows me to capture more of those moments that are important to me.

Ok, perhaps not to everyones taste but I like them and do think this include some of the 'recent' iconic photographs. Are they sharp? No. Are they clean? No. Do they capture the moment, tell a story and invoke some emotion. Hell yes.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/01/world/gallery/iconic-images/

Always good to have a rant, and at times it can be frustrating, but I don't think it should hold back your photography one single bit.

PS. My favourites are my secondhand film cameras, quality lenses and bodies that are very cheap.
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I'm spending my time knocking out everything that was drummed into me in camera club :)
 
I refer the right honourable Gothgirl to the Helios thread...
Which I can't link to as I'm on a Kindle and Don't know how to :)
 
Nostromo said:
A genuine question. What do you mean?
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I guess you need to no all the rules to try and break or ignore them. I think most images i'm drawn too wouldn't do well in camera club competition.
 
rjbell said:
I guess you need to no all the rules to try and break or ignore them. I think most images i'm drawn too wouldn't do well in camera club competition.
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Exactly what I thought it would mean. I'm the same, most that I like or are interested in break the 'rules' or should I say what I perceive as the rules. When I've looked at some of the local clubs and what they put up as the winning images I am just instantly put off.
 
rjbell said:
I guess you need to no all the rules to try and break or ignore them. I think most images i'm drawn too wouldn't do well in camera club competition.
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I see what you mean.
I must admit some of the judges that judge at our club really do nit pick, when it comes to following the rules. To me a photo can be good whether it's followed "the rules" or not.
Back to the point of the OP, I agree and disagree. I don't have the money to splash around on equipment, but i try to do the best with what I've got. It has its limitations, noise at iso over say 800 can be a problem, the number of focus points (minor problem) etc. But i don't begrudge people who have the latest or best equipment, if it gets them the results they want all well and good, if it doesn't they can buy some more new stuff.
Sometimes the type of photography that intrests you will have a bearing on how much you're going to have to spend to get high end results. Astro photography i would guess is going to cost a tidy some of money, wildlife photography would also be up.
 
Some great opinions here , and definetly some things to chew on and different perspectives to think about.

I think someone got my original meaning though, I don't begrudge the people that can buy expensive gear and use it well , by all means let them enjoy it

it's the people as someone said that have "All the gear and no idea"

and the "professionals" that sell poor quality , as that gives a bad name to us all
 
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gothgirl said:
it's the people as someone said that have "All the gear and no idea"

and the "professionals" that sell poor quality , as that gives a bad name to us all
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This really says more about you than it does the people you bemoan, if you focus your attention on what others do you will never find time to achieve what you want.

After all, if any muppet can sell out of focus, poorly composed pictures then why aren't you filling your boots by selling better photos?
 
I totally understand your viewpoint, my post was more what to do about it.

gothgirl said:
...

it's the people as someone said that have "All the gear and no idea"
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These people; you can choose to ignore, mock, or envy. I stick with the first as I think it's the only healthy option. But you can choose either option.

gothgirl said:
and the "professionals" that sell poor quality , as that gives a bad name to us all
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These people annoy all if us, but there's nothing we can do about it. The good news is that if you persevere and stay long enough in the business, you'll see that they really don't last that long. They either get better, charge more and become one of 'us', or they don't get better, can't up their prices and decide that it's not really worth the bother.

The bad news is that for every one that disappears, another 2 arrive.

Lastly, it really is all subjective, and I've seen work that I think is appalling from photographers who charge twice what I do.

But back to my other point. Sometimes we have to remember the 'professionalism' side of professional, if you're running a business, you're not buying toys you're purchasing the machinery required to create your product. You need to find the market that'll create enough income to make the investment worthwhile.
 
I have followed tbis topic and I am left confused somewhat. I think back to 1962 when my grandmother lent me (gave really) her Box Brownie. It was exciting, frustrating and often disappointing.

Photography became my main hobby and still is.

I never had 'gear envy' so never fell iinto the upgrade trap. That's not to say I didn't benefit from the camera club gear maniac's constant 'I must have the latest and best' body/lens/pro film stock..... I did and I still have 90% of his off-casts. I will be out tomorrow with a Pentax MX, M 28mm f/3.5, M 40mm f/2.8, M 100mm f/4 macro and a couple of rolls of Formopan.

Additionally I will have my EOS M, ef-m to 42mm adapter and a Helios 44-M4.

Tripod
and camera rain cover

The one thing I will have is my light meter.

For me, I shot film from 1962 and digital from circa 1998.

I think that the grounding in the practicalities of light does stay with you.

I learned to develop and print at nightschool but it was expensive.... a new Avocado Bath and sink was pricy ([emoji4])....

So my hobby was always subject to a budget but that meant I could concentrate on paying down my mortgage and paying off 2 wives!

Seriously, the latest DSLR + lenses and the speedlight connectivity is super.

I balance that with the basics, I still strust my eyesight and light meter, the discipline of film comes now and then to keep you grounded and price and quality does not mean success. I sold a picture taken on an old , barely functioning Mamiya 33 TLR I got for £5 at a boot sale! I was talked into doing a wedding once (and only time)! So not interested in pro stuff.

I was, however, very influenced ny the work, patience and production of Ansel Adams.

I oftem wonder if he was here now, just starting out, looking to put together a kit for his first wilderness photo expedition....

I would like to think he might go for a plate camera!


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/ansel/sfeature/sf_packing.html

We live in a special time of tech but I am sure we all know someone who shoots in P mode with £2K worth od body and lens?

I think a code to disable P might be good that would stop P or auto from enabling for 12 hours could be the best enabler of 'crafting' shots.

I have no real issues with kit wants, needs and desires. I cascade kit I no longer want to my (now grown up) kids, grandchildren, nieces but that does not always mean an upgrade has arrived.

I paid £12 for a Helios 44-2 and gave it to my eldest grand daughter.... missed it immediately. Got the later one for £18. That lens gets more outings on the EOS M than the 24-105 L does on my s/h 5D 2.

The best camera you have is inside your skull. Hence my confusion.

Phil V described the pro path spot on. My hobby was never going to be my business.
 
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An interesting read.

I'm at the other end. I work as a commercial photographer, have both digital medium format and high end nikon systems, a full set of glass for each, and a case full of profoto lighting. I've invested heavily and to be completely honest, it pays off, but this is my livelihood. Mechanics have their rack of snapon tools....

However, would I have far rather taken that money out of my company and gone on holiday? You betcha.

We live in an amazing age now where entry level slrs and point and shoots, hell even my iphone, can take stunning pictures in a lot or most conditions.

I get that there are limitations - some things you need a long lens for, others a camera that can shoot in low light, etc. There's often ways of meeting these cheaply, or experimenting with different ways of taking photos. Not got a 600mm lens to take photos of sparrows? try rigging a camera in the tree by the bird feeder with a remote shutter?! etc.


At the end of the day... I have all that kit, often hell taking a van-load to a shoot, but a huge amount of my work I do with one body with one standard zoom lens on it. Please, please ignore the photography press and all of the marketing that all of the equipment manufacturers do convincing you of how xyz gizmo will change your photography forever. So many of the photographic greats of the world spent years shooting mainly with a 50mm and film way noisier than digital images...

It's a tough mental obstacle to get over. Shooting film for a little bit when I was at uni helped me to slow down and consider every single shot a bit more, within the camera that I was holding
 
I know I have been near certain RAF bases and seen people with massive lenes, and then when I have seen the pics that they have posted on social media the quality is poor. Sometimes it is like too much noise, blurred or cropped so much the quality starts to go down.

Also at some events now, the organisers seem to get anyone who they know with a camera to do the photography. Sometimes if the person knows what they are doing is good, other times like someone mentioned above with the dog, they can be poor.
 
itsdavedotnet said:
An interesting read.

I'm at the other end. I work as a commercial photographer, have both digital medium format and high end nikon systems, a full set of glass for each, and a case full of profoto lighting. I've invested heavily and to be completely honest, it pays off, but this is my livelihood. Mechanics have their rack of snapon tools....

If the people who think Photograpy is expensive, they need a tour of the Snap On Van, the price of a decent tool kit plus Roll Cab etc. would make there eyes water.
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gothgirl said:
Sorry for the whinging post, but I just needed a bit of a vent to like minded people.

Everyone knows that photography is an expensive hobby, however there's always been that age old adage of "Only a poor workmen blames his tools" ... Which Is true...to a degree.

I agree that skill is a huge part of it but also there's only so much someone can do with a £100 camera and kit lens , compared to someone carrying £1000's worth of kit , people with the money are going to always have the advantage as no matter how good you are if you get two people with the same skills and a kit lens can't compete with L glass.

If someone really knows what they are doing , and has the money for good kit , then fair do's to them , but I've spent years , really getting into photography and I believe that I've improved a lot from where I started , I've got some shots that I'm damn proud of despite the fact that the majority of my lenses are plastic fantastic and kit lenses.

What really makes me sad is to see that some people can just throw money at something , and get mad when they're not taking fantastic photos straight away , I'm getting tired of seeing whinging posts on various places such as forums , facebook and flickr etc of people posting images and ranting at why they're not perfect , when they have such a good expensive camera , and how crap the camera is etc.
These are photos with beginner mistakes such as exposure and focus... yet read the meta and they've been taken on hugely expensive cameras and L glass etc , the people who throw the money around and think that an expensive camera will make them a good photographer , no effort needed.

It gets me so sad aswell to see people who think they can throw £1000 at kit , then call themselves a professional photographer too.. I've seen so many "professionals" in my field that make such horrendous mistakes on photos they are charging people for (Terrible editing , bad focus , blur etc) but they've got all the expensive gear , shop , website etc so people go to them.

I would love to be a profesional photographer , I would love to buy L glass , Full Frame and really work at it... and I know I'm not alone in this , but it just makes me really sad to see people who just don't seem to care about learning anything , because they think they can throw more money at it and that will be the answer.

It's different when you want to buy a better lens because you've practiced , learnt and know that you've met the limits of your current Lens and you want something sharper, something faster etc.
to someone who's just throwing loads of money at something and buying the most expensive one they can , because they think having an expensive camera is all that makes a photographer

Sorry guys

Rant over.
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Well, as you now know, expensive gear does not make you a better photographer, and you can take amazing images with a cheap camera and cheap lenses. Let the idiots prop up Nikon and Canon's R&D costs with their stupid belief that you can buy talent.. ultimately, we all benefit. Christ knows, the professional photographic industry is NOT keeping Canon and Nikon in business... that much is obvious. It's the amateur market. Even the pro cameras are driven by the amateur market because more amateurs buy pro gear than professionals do. It's been like this for over a decade now// probably nearer two.

While ostensibly, I agree with you, you do seem bitter about those who have nice gear and no idea. Stop worrying about it. Having nice gear doesn't make your imagery any better unless you're doing something that specifically needs it like wildlife or sports etc. Those things needs big fast lenses, and fast cameras.. and are very gear dependant, sure, but most everything else can be done just as well with cheap gear. I've seen the kind of stuff you take, and I can't really think of why it would be improved by using a full frame camera or an L series lens. Can you? In what way would it be better?

Stop externalising everything. Photography comes from within, not from your gear.


"You don't make a photograph just with a camera. You bring to the act of photography all the pictures you have seen, the books you have read, the music you have heard, the people you have loved"

Ansel Adams

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Here's a review of a student's work that was in the Source graduate review of 2014.

All taken with a Nikon D80 and Kit lens that cost her £100.

http://www.source.ie/graduate/2014/...5-14/blacfyldba_student_05_42_17_22-05-14.php

A lot of the stuff I've seen of yours is kind of heading up that street, so why are you so obsessed with gear? I'm not being cruel here, but aren't you doing what you accuse the "all the gear, no idea" brigade of doing and thinking your photography would be so much better if only you had better gear?

Unless you're doing something gear specific (wildlife, sports, press, macro etc), the camera actually makes little difference.
 
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Mark-Anthony said:
Kind of on the same level with regards to knowledge and the right equipment, but I once seen a post asking for a wedding photographer on facebook. One of the top comments was a girl saying "just get the new galaxy phone, that'll take better pictures than any photographer".

I had to laugh!
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In the hands of a talented photographer, it probably would be better than plonking a 5D MkIII into the hands of an idiot.
 
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DG Phototraining said:
The beauty of buying the 'best' there is, even as a beginner, is that it takes the equipment out of being a reason for less than perfect shots as it removes the chance of moaning about gear as the excuse;
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An expensive way of removing the reason though. It's way cheaper to just listen to those who know what they're talking about, and actually believing them.
 
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