Bird section

[markyboy.1967]

Am i in a minority here in getting annoyed with some of the crit in the bird section. I know from past threads that some are annoyed with the " nice pic" comments but my god im so fed up with crit that can be said in a few words but actually takes 4 or 5 paragraphs- i have always hated people who ramble on and on and now its happening in the written word as well. I just cant be bothered reading those replies.

On another note if people feel that all they want to add to a thread is " nice pic" then what gives others the right to critisise them for doing so. If you feel you can add crit then great but remember every one is at a different level- so bloody leave them alone!

Last but not least- i often see people leaving so called crit for others where they go into minute details that they see but they bloody have a terrible portfolio of images themselves. They would maybe taken more seriously if they can " walk the walk" themselves firstly.

Rant over!

 

[BillN_33]

I have now reduced my comments to just three or four paragraphs for that reason - I've stopped annoying the OP but instead now annoy everyone except the OP

progress?

wish I'd got a D4S then maybe I'd be quicker

must brush my teeth

 

[markyboy.1967]

Bill there are more than you that ramble on..

What's your thoughts on challenging people on commenting with "nice pic", as it annoys me a bit and feel it drives people away from the section- if they see a pic and like it then great, why not be allowed to say so, especially those newer to photography.

 

[BillN_33]

Bill there are more than you that ramble on..

What's your thoughts on challenging people on commenting with "nice pic", as it annoys me a bit and feel it drives people away from the section- if they see a pic and like it then great, why not be allowed to say so, especially those newer to photography.

I am disappointed with all this "soft stuff" Mark

I now see so many images on here that would be improved just with a little advice - I have stopped posting C & C in the main - not because the OP gets annoyed BUT because there are some that get annoyed with the postings made and that's when it starts to "kick off" as my daughter would say.

Until I joined this Bird Forum I had never really taken an image of a Bird - if my shots have improved, which I think that they have, it is because of this Forum and the C & C up to about 4 or 5 months ago - now hardly anyone of merit, (I do not mean this disrespectfully to anyone), opens their mouth critically, (apart from the occasional rant!), because they just cannot be bothered.

As I keep saying the Section has been "dumbed down" and is "sugar sweet" - but that seems to be what many want so who am I to disagree, as the song goes

I have tried and said to some, "do you really this that it is a great image" ...... then they start pilling in .... not worth it - I've started taken images of other things!

 

[gramps]

What's your thoughts on challenging people on commenting with "nice pic", as it annoys me a bit and feel it drives people away from the section- if they see a pic and like it then great, why not be allowed to say so, especially those newer to photography.

My take is that people are being put off the section much more by the pedantic, 'there's only one way to take a pic or give crit ... and that's my way', than any amount of 'nice pic' comments, (though in truth I can't instantly recall too many of them).
If you feel that you can offer crit in a positive and encouraging way then do so, it can only benefit the one posting the image(s) but if all you want to do is post a sarcastic remark, why bother, it doesn't make you look good and it doesn't help anyone.
At least 'nice pic' is two words, way better than some of the one word negative responses that have been posted recently!

 

[Phil-D]

My thoughts, ...........any crit would have been appreciated for the last set I put up, but I also appreciate you get out what you put in and I'm guilty of not putting a lot in. I'm not a fan of just saying 'nice pics' even when I think they are

 

[BillN_33]

My take is that people are being put off the section much more by the pedantic, 'there's only one way to take a pic or give crit ... and that's my way', than any amount of 'nice pic' comments, (though in truth I can't instantly recall too many of them).
If you feel that you can offer crit in a positive and encouraging way then do so, it can only benefit the one posting the image(s) but if all you want to do is post a sarcastic remark, why bother, it doesn't make you look good and it doesn't help anyone.
At least 'nice pic' is two words, way better than some of the one word negative responses that have been posted recently!

Just to say that I believe that @gramps and I disagree on this point and it has caused friction in the past - which is/was a pity since I believe that we may agree on many other things ....... this is one of the reasons that I have stopped any, what may be regarded as critical C & C postings, (I always thought that they were direct and useful - but I'm from Yorkshire) - when I now see a poor image or one that I feel I could help with a little of my , (gained from here), advice ...... I now just keep quiet ..... and let the nice comments flow

 

[gramps]

 

[Tom Curtis]

So what is this website called again? "Talk Photography" or is it Criticise Photography?

 

[markyboy.1967]

Guys the thing about people piling in etc etc isn't a new thing and long before you joined the forum Bill we had the same arguments about a clean background or natural background- that went round and round in long debates. I don't think it's necessarily the watering down of the forum that causes issues but more the fact that people can come on here now expecting negative comments and are ready and waiting to respond which in turn put people off.

Saying " nice pic" as far as I'm concerned is ok when you either are unqualified to offer crit or when your accessing the forum on a phone etc- I know I often look at the forum on my phone and fail to add anything at all. Maybe a nice pic emocon would be better and easier Lol.

I took the decision a while back not to post on threads which I believe have been over criticised as they can lead to all sorts of crap later in the thread and I'm here to enjoy the forum not to get involved in other peoples gripes. But by not adding I knew it would look like I was sitting on the fence a bit.

I see loads of images posted and have even done it myself many times where I point out issues myself on my own pic before someone tells me in a reply that looks like war and peace what could have been done in only a few words

 

[BillN_33]

So what is this website called again? "Talk Photography" or is it Criticise Photography?

This is precisely what some problems occur - a lack of understanding

If you look there are sections for C & C - if you understand what C & C is or want C & C they can be extremely useful

There are also section in which you can post for pleasure

I post in both sections

 

[BillN_33]

Guys the thing about people piling in etc etc isn't a new thing and long before you joined the forum Bill we had the same arguments about a clean background or natural background- that went round and round in long debates. I don't think it's necessarily the watering down of the forum that causes issues but more the fact that people can come on here now expecting negative comments and are ready and waiting to respond which in turn put people off.

Saying " nice pic" as far as I'm concerned is ok when you either are unqualified to offer crit or when your accessing the forum on a phone etc- I know I often look at the forum on my phone and fail to add anything at all. Maybe a nice pic emocon would be better and easier Lol.

I took the decision a while back not to post on threads which I believe have been over criticised as they can lead to all sorts of crap later in the thread and I'm here to enjoy the forum not to get involved in other peoples gripes. But by not adding I knew it would look like I was sitting on the fence a bit.

I see loads of images posted and have even done it myself many times where I point out issues myself on my own pic before someone tells me in a reply that looks like war and peace what could have been done in only a few words

some images in the C & C sections are obviously poor Mark - but still get the thumbs up - it has been pointed out many times that the section is a C & C section

i seldom comment now if I am looking at the images on my laptop and I tend to only be critical, (if that is the correct word), of good images were I think I "know" the OP

 

[Joeturner11]

I took the decision a while back not to post on threads which I believe have been over criticised as they can lead to all sorts of crap later in the thread and I'm here to enjoy the forum not to get involved in other peoples gripes. But by not adding I knew it would look like I was sitting on the fence a bit.

I know how you feel Mark, I don't even bother posting in this section of the forum anymore and if I do its a rare occasion, I won't even go into telling you why as its just not worth the time, it sad its gone down hill like this as you say. Last to mention as you said on the first post regarding the 'walk the walk' section I agree with you completely on. Thats my 2 cent's worth anyways...

 

[markyboy.1967]

some images in the C & C sections are obviously poor Mark - but still get the thumbs up - it has been pointed out many times that the section is a C & C section

i seldom comment now if I am looking at the images on my laptop and I tend to only be critical, (if that is the correct word), of good images were I think I "know" the OP

But remember Bill the different levels and what you may be able to point out then some others might not. If a pic looks nice to the eye then " nice pic" isnt an issue, if someone feels they can expand on that by offering pointers from their experience then all the better. The problem being the word " experience" which some havent got to just yet and we need to respect that as well.

 

[BillN_33]

But remember Bill the different levels and what you may be able to point out then some others might not. If a pic looks nice to the eye then " nice pic" isnt an issue, if someone feels they can expand on that by offering pointers from their experience then all the better. The problem being the word " experience" which some havent got to just yet and we need to respect that as well.

is "nice image" and "great shot" C & C .............. it is certainly a "C" but not "C" IMHO

 

[markyboy.1967]

Bill you dont want it changed to C or C do you just so it can fit in with the ideal.lol.

 

[markyboy.1967]

I know how you feel Mark, I don't even bother posting in this section of the forum anymore and if I do its a rare occasion, I won't even go into telling you why as its just not worth the time, it sad its gone down hill like this as you say. Last to mention as you said on the first post regarding the 'walk the walk' section I agree with you completely on. Thats my 2 cent's worth anyways...

Joe im glad you joined in and had your say, i have looked at many of your posts and i know you have a lot to offer others but like me for one reason or another im put off doing so. Again like me you dont seem to get involved in the petty things on the forum and thats something i respect. Hope to see further images of yours in the future.

 

[kendo1]

After reading this thread I dipped into Birds for the first time and looked at every thread on the first page.

Maybe I've missed something, but I don't see a problem.
It looks just like any other section.
Apart from the birds on sticks
There's a lot of very good photography going on and some very capable snappers.

 

[markyboy.1967]

Ok heres a question for the bird section folk which i recently came across elsewhere and is subject to a but of a debate.

If a professiobal bird tog pisted a pic which was very very good but you saw sonething that in your eyes wasnt quite right tgen would you offer extensive crit knowing tgat the togs livelyhood rests on his images and his competetors coukd see your crit as could magsazines etc who monitor the threads?

 

[BillN_33]

Ok heres a question for the bird section folk which i recently came across elsewhere and is subject to a but of a debate.

If a professiobal bird tog pisted a pic which was very very good but you saw sonething that in your eyes wasnt quite right tgen would you offer extensive crit knowing tgat the togs livelyhood rests on his images and his competetors coukd see your crit as could magsazines etc who monitor the threads?

yes . why not ......... he should be interested in what a member of the (buying) public says

 

[markyboy.1967]

Cheers Bill, would you do so knowing that it could stop a sale and knowing that this guy is a trusted professional with many many mags and commisions behind him and to his eye its correct for purpose.

 

[BillN_33]

Cheers Bill, would you do so knowing that it could stop a sale and knowing that this guy is a trusted professional with many many mags and commisions behind him and to his eye its correct for purpose.

If I "knew" him I would send him a PM .......... if I did not know him, I reckon that my opinion would not be worth much anyway as a photographer ....... as a buyer maybe ........ but not as a photographer ......... if we were to get onto the subject of "art" - if it is "crap" (sorry don't ban me), I tend to say so

 

[whyone]

So what is this website called again? "Talk Photography" or is it Criticise Photography?

I always ask for C&C with my pictures, and whilst it's always nice to receive a complement or two, I know my pictures aren't great and can most certainly be improved. I am therefore especially grateful when people not only take the trouble to look at my images, but spend time offering considered suggestions on what I might do better next time....if this advice runs to a few paragraph's, all the better as far as I'm concerned.

 

[markyboy.1967]

If I "knew" him I would send him a PM .......... if I did not know him, I reckon that my opinion would not be worth much anyway as a photographer ....... as a buyer maybe ........ but not as a photographer ......... if we were to get onto the subject of "art" - if it is "crap" (sorry don't ban me), I tend to say so

Bill you basically are on my wave length as i wouldnt be doing so on a thread but would have done so by pm etc. I will have a think about posting a link but not sure its a great idea just now. The pic as far as i was concerened had the correct exposure, sharp and an interesting subject however a lot of negative space which to me would be perfect for magazing wording but not as good for just an internet image- it was stated as being used in a magazine. The thread was jumped on by another tog who slated it and its gone bad from there for both OP and the other tog. For me its bad practice in this light but begs other moral questions on feedback and how, when to give it.

 

[Neil B]

I'm not sure you will find any "real"pro's in the bird section Mark , as for C&C it's easier to strike a deal with a fellow tog to be as honest as possible and be prepared for a beat down every now and again.
On the +side we will soon be into Robin season

 

[markyboy.1967]

I'm not sure you will find any "real"pro's in the bird section Mark , as for C&C it's easier to strike a deal with a fellow tog to be as honest as possible and be prepared for a beat down every now and again.
On the +side we will soon be into Robin season

Yeah Neil as i mentioned this was on another site however many of the principals still stand in the bird section and seeing how it can hurt in different ways and how we don't always see what the OP sees then it should make us all think about our crit delivery and timing of that crit.

 

[kendo1]

I still never managed to see that fly's left testicle.

 

[Neil B]

Yeah Neil as i mentioned this was on another site however many of the principals still stand in the bird section and seeing how it can hurt in different ways and how we don't always see what the OP sees then it should make us all think about our crit delivery and timing of that crit.

Agree, be it a forum or local camera club, good honest critique is hard to give and take.
I guess being sat behind a keyboard doesn't help but also not being able to handle criticism makes for a watered down version of what you are thinking.

 

[Digisatman]

Can I just say I do pop in to the bird section now and again, and I must say I'm not over impressed I posted some images not log ago from a visit to the ICBP in Newent, now I know they are not WILD & FREE but I don't seem to recall one of you making any comments good or bad Apart from Gramps & Racingsnake Now to me that's does not look good on you . .

Take what you want from this, from an outsider to the bird section

Edit
The post I refer to link

 

[BillN_33]

Agree, be it a forum or local camera club, good honest critique is hard to give and take.
I guess being sat behind a keyboard doesn't help but also not being able to handle criticism makes for a watered down version of what you are thinking.

Look - C & C is good if it comes from the right source and normally C & C is only given from guys who have something constructive to say, right or wrong, it should never be dominated by the positives, they should be mentioned, but the negative views are more important, even if they are "wrong" ...... C & C should be something that causes you to think and review........ you may change, you may not

 

[BillN_33]

Can I just say I do pop in to the bird section now and again, and I must say I'm not over impressed :-( I posted some images not log ago from a visit to the ICBP in Newent, now I know they are not WILD & FREE but I don't seem to recall one of you making any comments good or bad Apart from Gramps & Racingsnake Now to me that's does not look good on you . .

Take what you want from this, from an outsider to the bird section

Shaun, the section has changed - that's the worry, (for me anyway)

I just do not know how we get around this so that the main aim is to constantly help all to improve ...... we are now "trending water" IMHO

I've started taking "tourist" shots

https://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/japan-back-for-a-few-days-after-23-years.601027/

pictures of "dogs and cats" will come next

 

[The W]

As far as I'm concerned any and all photos shared on a photo forum are fair game for honest feedback. The whole point of a photo forum is to engage with people who are interested in and have opinions about the art of photography, and if somebody is just after automatic love they might as well just stick to posting it on Facebook for their friends. Without the possibility for people to register their dislike of a photo, how do you separate 'crocodile praise' from genuine appreciation? I don't enjoy if somebody comes along and is negative about one of my photos, but if they later do make positive noises about a different photo of mine, I know it means something. When somebody becomes a 'Jo Whiley' who is never critical about anything, their love becomes a cheap valueless commodity. A thread along the lines of "I won a competition" or "I sold my first photo" is about the only time I'd automatically keep stum with criticism.

On the verbosity of posts, I think there's room for both short posts that simply acknowledge an appreciation and longer, waffling critiques. The forum owners can set the rules as they see fit, and everybody else should chill out. No thread starter is going to be disappointed at learning somebody likes their photo. Equally nobody should ever feel that they're not allowed to offer specific critiques however long-winded they want to be. At least here you can skip over long posts, unlike being cornered by the bore at camera club! I also don't hold that not everybody is qualified to offer their opinions. Everyone should feel free to go ahead and make their observations, and everybody else if free to judge whether they should pay attention.

I'd also have no qualms about criticising the work of professionals, irrespective of their standing above mine. Save restraint for beginners, pros are more fair game than anybody. The pro is free to disregard (and probably will) any and all comments as worthless, but we should all feel free to make it. Nick Nichols might have a portfolio that blows mine out of the water but that didn't mean that when I stood in front of his winning Wildlife Photographer of the Year photo last year I felt obliged to keep to myself that I couldn't see beyond the wonky horizon and declare that it wasn't close to the best photo on display.

If there's an issue with the Bird subforum, it's not the length of critique. Usually on internet forums, everybody plays nice in the photo sharing part and the short tempers and winding up are found with the pixel-peepers in the gear section. For some reason, TP's equipment forum is entirely friendly and the grumpy pants are all in the bird forum...

 

[Joeturner11]

TP's equipment forum is entirely friendly and the grumpy pants are all in the bird forum...

Don't forget the Equipment section is also the quickest way to get GAS & To make a big hole in your bank balance

 

[rob-nikon]

For some reason, TP's equipment forum is entirely friendly and the grumpy pants are all in the bird forum...

I'm guessing you haven't posted an image in the landscape section! I posted one in there a while ago, I did get some good critique but one person said 'why bother as the light was too dull'. They were right it wasn't great but it was part of a learning chance I had for landscapes which I don't do very often. Funnily enough it all flared up about 2-3 weeks later as others started to comment about the critique given and an argument started.

I know critique is given in the photo sharing section but is it explained to anyone before they post? Newbies may not be aware it's a critique section, they may think it's only photo sharing and not expect it.

There are several members who can 'walk the walk' and I find their input invaluable to learn from. You can learn a lot from others critique if it's the right type of critique. 'Nice pic' just reminds me of flickr comments and people posting to a huge number of groups just to get lots of views and favourites. There was a critique someone made on one of my photos before (not this section) that didn't 'walk the walk' as they had similar issues in some of their shared flickr photos. I didn't have an issue with it, I could have ignored their input but it did make me smile they didn't follow their own advice.

 

[Digisatman]

I have a very easy solution, anybody can post an image but they have to select a prefix to the title
1 easy does it tiger
2 some pointers please
3 full C&C ( no blindfold at the firing post required I can take it )

Oh and only one bird section for photos free,wild & captured that way the best of the best have to look at the newbies and everyone would have to adhere to the above

 

[AdamSi]

I don't feel qualified enough / up to the level of many in this section but do hope one day I will be and heading in right direction but feel if people take the time to post I should at least comment about liking it if I have popped in to look at it, part of this was prompted by the recent classified issue but only made me think yes I live on here look at the bird section daily and very rarely posted even if it was just to say I like the image, hopefully I'm not annoying people in doing so.

 

[markyboy.1967]

Can I just say I do pop in to the bird section now and again, and I must say I'm not over impressed I posted some images not log ago from a visit to the ICBP in Newent, now I know they are not WILD & FREE but I don't seem to recall one of you making any comments good or bad Apart from Gramps & Racingsnake Now to me that's does not look good on you . .

Take what you want from this, from an outsider to the bird section

Edit
The post I refer to link

Shaun, for my part even if i had seen it then i wouldn't have commented anyway as i just don't comment on captive birds etc, nothing at all against you at all as its something i don't comment on. For me to see a captive bird image that was to me as very good or special enough to comment on then it would need to be up there with top model portraits as they can be posed as you like within reason, lighting changed/positions adjusted etc and i haven't seen many on here that get close to that perfection. Apologies.

 

[Digisatman]

Shaun, for my part even if i had seen it then i wouldn't have commented anyway as i just don't comment on captive birds etc, nothing at all against you at all as its something i don't comment on. For me to see a captive bird image that was to me as very good or special enough to comment on then it would need to be up there with top model portraits as they can be posed as you like within reason, lighting changed/positions adjusted etc and i haven't seen many on here that get close to that perfection. Apologies.

Apologies accepted, but you need to change your thought process as you joined the forum not just the wild bird section, you advise and skill can help others develop to move on from what you deem you cannot comment on, I could of been dishonest and said that they were wild, so now there a 50% you might of made a comment, I do love some of you guys images but please remember where you started and how you got to where you are now.

Also remember that if it wasn't for some of these captured birds you wouldn't be shooting there offspring in the wild.

 

[markyboy.1967]

My thought process has changed to the way it is now as at one time i did comment on captive birds at one time and evoloution has taught me not to do so any more and i dont see that changing any time soon. Captive birds are a different ball game from wild birds of prey and only serve to enlighten some to BOP charm which may lead to some taking it a step further and look for them in the wild, you may also pick up behavior like flight patterns etc so may serve a purpose.i did indeed photograph cative birds and animals once( once only) so cant knock others for doing it. The wild birds of prey are responsible for a massive majority of the captive birds and not the other way around unless you include escapees. You mentioned you could have been dishonest but that has been tried before and in 99% of cases they get found out and get a harsh reception from the rest of the forum and just gets you on peoples ignore list. In most cases its easy to see a captive bird by not including the legs/hiding them, tail feather condition, cloning of jessies, type of bird etc etc.. Im happy to help out in most cases but just not on BOP's. Anyway i hope you enjoy the bird section and look foward to seeing some of your wild bird images.

 

[whyone]

Captive birds are an interesting one.

For me, it is a whole different ball game. My personal interest is observing birds (actually animals generally) in the wild, hopefully capturing a nice image or two along the way - the photograph is to a large extent a by-product of the endeavour for me. Because of this, photographs of captive birds hold little interest. I am not for a second suggesting that these photos are without merit, I am sure it is possible to take poor captive bird images, and similarly, with skill and good technique, excellent photographs. It is just a different discipline, for me as much so as still life or portraiture, and holds little interest for me, and from reading posts here, others on this forum.