Big, soft and overhead!

Bennp2000

Bennp2000

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My Strobist gear (so all portable flash, mostly YN stuff) is all getting a bit tired, used (and a little broken); a friend has asked that I do some portraiture stuff and I've always wanted to use something (relatively) big, soft and overhead (with some nice ring-flash on-axis fill). However, my flash stuff rarely gets an outing these days (new job, new dog etc.) and thus I'd like to keep my spend to a minimum.

In terms of big and soft I'm thinking of something 'equivalent' to a Photek Softlighter II (however, that isn't cheap nor is the support it'd require).

Any suggestions? It'll all be a bit DIY home studio!

Thanks in advance.
 
Bennp2000 said:
My Strobist gear (so all portable flash, mostly YN stuff) is all getting a bit tired, used (and a little broken); a friend has asked that I do some portraiture stuff and I've always wanted to use something (relatively) big, soft and overhead (with some nice ring-flash on-axis fill). However, my flash stuff rarely gets an outing these days (new job, new dog etc.) and thus I'd like to keep my spend to a minimum.

In terms of big and soft I'm thinking of something 'equivalent' to a Photek Softlighter II (however, that isn't cheap nor is the support it'd require).

Any suggestions? It'll all be a bit DIY home studio!

Thanks in advance.
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Possibly the cheapest option would be to buy a Phottix front diffuser (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Phottix-Para-Pro-Reflective-Umbrella-Diffuser/dp/B00B7YJOVE/) and combine that with one of Trevor's 'parabolic' umbrellas (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Flash-Umb...59-64-150-162cm-diameter-arc-Z1-/152083457860). I'm not sure whether the diffuser will fit perfectly though.
 
firstly, you've got absolutely no chance of filling something the size of a soft lighter with a speedlight.

So about the closest is this, smaller, but at least a speedlight at its widest setting has a chance of working. And it's inexpensive, used close enough it should give a big soft source.
 
Phil V said:
firstly, you've got absolutely no chance of filling something the size of a soft lighter with a speedlight.

So about the closest is this, smaller, but at least a speedlight at its widest setting has a chance of working. And it's inexpensive, used close enough it should give a big soft source.
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David Hobby seems to use the Softlighter quite a bit with speedlights, but he points out that it isn't parabolic, so it might be better suited.
 
Cistron said:
David Hobby seems to use the Softlighter quite a bit with speedlights, but he points out that it isn't parabolic, so it might be better suited.
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Thanks. Hobby is where the Softlighter came from in my head, so it can be done with small flash. Remember, this isn't pro, going-to-be-printed-large stuff, I can buy myself some extra power by bumping my ISO more than others may like (and given where I'll be controlling ambient shouldn't be too much of an issue).

So, a large (it's all relative) parabolic with a front diffuser seems like a good idea. Cheap solution for getting it over head? I'd rather not splash out on C-stands or booms if I can help it!
 
Bennp2000 said:
Thanks. Hobby is where the Softlighter came from in my head, so it can be done with small flash. Remember, this isn't pro, going-to-be-printed-large stuff, I can buy myself some extra power by bumping my ISO more than others may like (and given where I'll be controlling ambient shouldn't be too much of an issue).

So, a large (it's all relative) parabolic with a front diffuser seems like a good idea. Cheap solution for getting it over head? I'd rather not splash out on C-stands or booms if I can help it!
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I'm not one for arguing with the 'experts', but I'd like to know how you plan to fill a massive brolly from a short distance with a fixed reflector on your lamp.

It's not about power (boosting ISO in modern cameras works a treat), but using a modifier designed for a bare bulb with a speedlight is something that needs careful consideration. And frankly having an understanding of the physics might get you a result, whereas ignorance of the physics and just thinking because some geezer on the web reckons it'll work will get you results will be an exercise in futility.
 
Bennp2000 said:
You're meaning the parabolic or the softlighter? In answer to your first reply on the thread, have a scroll, have a read:

http://strobist.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/on-assignment-back-to-well.html

there are countless other examples...
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Although there's lots of obfuscation on that site, the BTS shot and description show a lot more going on than just a large overhead soft light, as always, the devil is in the detail.

You could do the maths yourself regarding the angle your light leaves a speedlight, the distance from the brolly and decide what you think will happen to the light, rather than just believing either me or someone else.

As for stands and brackets, a brolly at that angle is quite stable on top of a stand with a basic brolly brocket. My preference would be a second bracket to get the flash fairly central and to experiment with diffusers on the speedlight to fill the brolly...

But feel free to ignore me, all I'm doing is answering your question based on my own experience and an o level in physics.
 
Phil, I have the 'other stuff', plenty of it (albeit a bit battered and held together with tape)!

Convertible umbrella,
Umbrella softbox and grid
grids (DIY)
Ringflash (Rayflash)

Lots imperfect, lots with trade-offs but the list goes on... even if most of it is held together with duct tape!
 
How big is your brolly softbox? How many people are you planning to shoot?
 
1 person; 80cm I'd guess.

You can obviously get it super close but as per the hobby link, you can't feather it overhead like that, I've tried in the past and it's just not big enough.
 
sk66 said:
Well, there's three SB800's inside the softlighter.... a quad bracket would be even better. A boom stand to hold a 60" with 4 speedlights isn't going to be cheap either.
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Not to mention, 3 speedlights have a bit more spread than 1 when it comes to filling such a large brolly.
 
Where did anyone say one?

Why is everyone getting so hung up on the availability of small flash here. I have four of my own YN560s or later and access to at least another four from a good friend. Plus controller and triggers for the later series.

Quad bracket isn't an issue; ball bungees strapped to the brolly/box shaft works fine for this purpose and if the spread isn't enough I can throw on some omnibounces.

My problem is keeping the budget as low as possible and getting something big enough, into position.
 
I'm not understanding why you can't feather a smaller modifier "like that." When you do that you not only waste a lot of the light (direct it elsewhere), you *also* make your modifier much smaller. In that image the 60" has an effective size of ~30" vertical.

For what you are wanting, I would look for something between 3-4ft. Smaller will be lighter, need less light (spread/power), and it will be cheaper.

Edit: something in the 3ft range with a single speedlight could probably be propped in place on the end of a painter's pole.
 
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sk66 said:
I'm not understanding why you can't feather a smaller modifier "like that." When you do that you not only waste a lot of the light (direct it elsewhere), you *also* make your modifier much smaller. In that image the 60" has an effective size of ~30" vertical.

For what you are wanting, I would look for something between 3-4ft. Smaller will be lighter, need less light (spread/power), and it will be cheaper.
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Or use two 33 inch brolly boxes?
 
I think you're misunderstanding the benefit/purpose of feathering a modifier like that.
First, it makes the modifier smaller/harder (if desired/you have excess you don't need).
Secondly, it uses the edge of light to control "spill" where you don't want it. But indoors all (most) of the light that you have directed away in order to do that will return (almost certainly, unless it's a really big space/low power).

I think you are going to be better off using a smaller modifier more directly, and flagging it if necessary.
 
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I may be misunderstanding, certainly.

However, my thoughts are that you're courting the nature of the fall-off at the edge of the excessively large light mod (not just the rate of [dictated by distance], but the quality of [dictated by relative size, of which the larger mod is always going to win if working distances remain the same])?

My experience of trying it with smaller mods is hot spots. I managed to kill spill in my modern flat which had low ceilings and was almost all white surfaces so some control will be possible (3.5m ceilings).
 
Bennp2000 said:
However, my thoughts are that you're courting the nature of the fall-off at the edge of the excessively large light mod (not just the rate of [dictated by distance], but the quality of [dictated by relative size, of which the larger mod is always going to win if working distances remain the same])?
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Not really... because the "apparent/visible size" of the modifier is not really "larger" when feathered like that. Take a plate and look at it from a 45* angle... it becomes oblong in size. As far as the area being lit is concerned, the apparent/visible size *is* the size and therefore has the associated "quality." There will be a different effect elsewhere due to changes in distance, but they will primarily affect areas of no concern (i.e. below the waist).

Assuming even fill of the modifier (and that *is* a large assumption in many cases) there should be no difference in light "quality" across the surface.
At the very edge there *is* less light and less wrap, but that has to due with being at the edge and not size per-se (but it tends to more gradual than a flag is). Both of those effects would generally be considered "lower quality" (less soft).

"Hot spots" are due to either uneven fill, or falloff due to having it very close. Uneven fill is rather common, even with studio heads (but to a much lesser degree). In fact, feathering a modifier like that is often done *because of* uneven fill in order to take advantage of hotspots.
IME/O, most people do not use modifiers from close enough in general, not to mention close enough to cause really dramatic falloff (hotspots).

All modifiers of the same design/shape will light the same size area w/ very similar "edge falloff" characteristics when used from the same distance. "Size" primarily affects "wrap" (fill) which occurs towards the center of the illuminated area.

Edit: IMO many do things simply due to the results it derives, which is fine because nothing else really matters. But they frequently do not really understand the cause/effect relationships. And that frequently leads to miscorrelations and "bad information."
 
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OK, but using your plate analogy if I go and pick up a larger plate, or even my Christmas turkey plate and look at it from 45' it is a bigger rectangle than the plate?

Re: Hot Spots, the issue I've had is using my current brolly box, close enough for super soft light I do get issues with hot spots. Perhaps it wasn't evenly lit (likely so as you suggest. You end up pushing it REALLY close and feathering it a LOT to get rid and then (in my last place at least), light was going everywhere.

I see what you're saying about differing mods. However, you'll have to admit that all aren't built evenly and in that respect results can differ from products that seem on the face of it to be the same.
 
Bennp2000 said:
OK, but using your plate analogy if I go and pick up a larger plate, or even my Christmas turkey plate and look at it from 45' it is a bigger rectangle than the plate?
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Sure, if larger is handled the same way, it will always be "larger." But that doesn't mean it will be softer/better than a smaller modifier used differently (i.e. not feathered).

Bennp2000 said:
I see what you're saying about differing mods. However, you'll have to admit that all aren't built evenly and in that respect results can differ from products that seem on the face of it to be the same.
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Absolutely... and that's probably one of the more common mistakes, assuming a softbox is a softbox and a light is a light. Without testing it is very hard to know what you are actually working with. And when looking at a final picture of a subject it can be nearly impossible to discern specific cause/effects (unless something is just horribly wrong).

It's those assumptions that leads to the preponderance of cheap poorly designed lighting stuff out there now. Not that I think it really matters because there really is no such thing as "good" or "bad" light... what matters is what you do with it. But it's definitely not "one size fits all."

Bennp2000 said:
Re: Hot Spots, the issue I've had is using my current brolly box, close enough for super soft light I do get issues with hot spots. Perhaps it wasn't evenly lit (likely so as you suggest. You end up pushing it REALLY close and feathering it a LOT to get rid and then (in my last place at least), light was going everywhere.
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That really does sound like the typically uneven illumination with a speedlight issue to me...
 
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