Big game hunting

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Phil V said:
I'm not sure you know who I am? I'm not a full time pro, photographically I get my kicks from paid work and from shooting Rallying (not a soften as I'd like) and other Motorsport (nowhere near as much as I like) cooking, theatre, concerts, fairly average stuff. I understand 'adrenaline junkie' what I don't understand is rock climbing as a tourist activity, it endangers lives, hunting purely for sport I think is truly sick, particularly big game (just pulled those 2 out). I understand track days, hunting for food, rock climbing etc, whilst it's developmental of skill and no-one (who isn't there voluntarily) is getting hurt.

We've won, we're at the top of the food chain, we have high powered rifles, nuclear weapons, we can destroy anything we like, so IMHO someone who gets a kick out of needlessly slaughtering animals has a perverse world view. I have no skills in either field craft or shooting, but a half day course would get me out in the bush to destroy a wild animal. Where's the satisfaction?
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You might not get the satisfaction but others do.

People here fish, why bother when the traulers in the North Sea will retrieve all the fish we could want.

Some people like rock climbing in their holidays. Being near the edge of danger is what thrills them. Others like jumping out of planes in wing suits. Looks great fun IMHO.

I got it into my head you're a full time pro, just the way your posts come across in other areas of the forum.

My friend goes shooting, he lives for it. Yes it helps keep a well stocked freezer but he doesbt do it for this. Many people do. It's fun, it takes skill, it is satisfying to get your kill and it's a laugh.

They, do not have perverse views on the world. Most of them work 9 to 6 in good jobs, have families and own homes and are decent hard working tax paying family law abiding people.

I worry to think that if someone doesn't do something you don't approve of, you see them as having a perverse view if the world. I do hope I'm wrong.
 
ST4 said:
Money makes the world go round. With it money we'd be nothing but bartering savages.
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Nope - sorry don't agree with this - it's just an easier way to be rewarded for services/goods but isnt a necessity. Imagine how much easier it would be without bankers :D
 
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They are making money with what resources they have in Africa, so breeding lions or other animals to hunt will paradoxically help their species thrive. The hunter gets the thrill of the experience and the trophy, the locals get the meat and employment in anti-poaching and the hunting lodge gets the money for breeding more lions or animals. They either do it this way or lose them all to poachers.
 
As you really didn't read very carefully (or even at all?
ST4 said:
You might not get the satisfaction but others do.

People here fish, why bother when the traulers in the North Sea will retrieve all the fish we could want.
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Where did I suggest I would get no satisfaction so others shouldn't!
Nowt wrong with fishing, to eat! Big game fishing? Like big game hunting is IMHO pointless (see my post re weaponry)

ST4 said:
Some people like rock climbing in their holidays. Being near the edge of danger is what thrills them. Others like jumping out of planes in wing suits. Looks great fun IMHO.
...
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No problem with any of those, I do have a problem with 'tourists' going up dangerous mountains, as it often ends up endangering the lives of others.
ST4 said:
I got it into my head you're a full time pro, just the way your posts come across in other areas of the forum..
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I must have to post at least once a month I'm not full time, no regular contributor to the business section believes I'm full time (possibly down to your skin reading)
ST4 said:
My friend goes shooting, he lives for it. Yes it helps keep a well stocked freezer but he doesbt do it for this. Many people do. It's fun, it takes skill, it is satisfying to get your kill and it's a laugh..
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I don't have a problem with that (again maybe you should have read the post properly), shooting for fun, or for food is perfectly fine if done legally.

ST4 said:
They, do not have perverse views on the world. Most of them work 9 to 6 in good jobs, have families and own homes and are decent hard working tax paying family law abiding people.

I worry to think that if someone doesn't do something you don't approve of, you see them as having a perverse view if the world. I do hope I'm wrong.
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I pointed out before several research papers that clearly show the links between what is diagnosed psychopathic behaviour and animal cruelty, you can feel free to ignore it, but it doesn't stop it being the opinion of the 'experts'.
Fred West was a hardworking builder with a wife and kids, Stuart Sutcliffe worked long hours and loved his wife and went to church. Just because some people have 'normal' sides to their lives, doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with them psychologically.

I appreciate there's also a 'cultural' element, but it's 2015, and time we grew out of it as a species (like we grew out of slavery). Like I said, we have the technology to easily kill anything we like, killing for fun is IMHO a sign of an imbalanced mind. Sure it looks like 'fun' but there's also a lot to be said for buying a concubine too, it doesn't make it OK.
 
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ST4 said:
Money makes the world go round. With it money we'd be nothing but bartering savages.
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:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
This is a turn up!
Surely we stopped being savages when we stopped hunting and started farming, not when we invented money. :thinking:
 
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Phil V said:
big game hunting is IMHO pointless (see my post re weaponry)
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You say pointless


Phil V said:
I don't have a problem with that (again maybe you should have read the post properly), shooting for fun, or for food is perfectly fine if done legally..
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you say perfectly fine.

Which is it?

Big game hunting is fun for people, and perfectly legal (albiet not in the case of cecil). Some people find shooting pheasants fun, others lions.

I really don't see the mass hysteria over big game hunting or fox hunting, or bull fighting. I really do not.
 
RIR said:
There are some that don't give a monkeys about wildlife, or the pain and suffering inflicted that they endure, because the only thing that matters is £££££

Some of those include people who like landscape photography. I presume they won't mind if I pollute the waters that they photograph with oil, and burn the same hillsides.

Anyone posing with a crossbow/rifle beside the corpse of a once majestic animal has serious psychiatric problems.
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You clearly know nothing at all about psychiatric problems.
 
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Byker28i said:
If someone is prepared to pay, if that money can be put to good use? If that animal has to be killed, then might as well let someone pay for it provided it's done humanely. That money can then be used for conservation, providing employment to the locals. Should we really be that surprised then that it's not much of a step then to the 600 breeding farms in South Africa who breed and produce trophy animals to hunt, once the big money is there.

Is this the need of the many out-way the need of the few? If it's managed correctly and a small hunting sideline pays for a large conservation area, employment for the locals, increased standard of living tied with responsible environmental practices?

What's you're feeling on Zoos? How about the photographer days at the big cats place at Dover, or even safari's, disturbing the wildlife so you can get close to nature to get your photograph? What about elephants in Thailand, painting or playing football, hardly normal behaviour yet attracts lots of money from the tourists.
Closer to home, how about Dyrham park, national trust property with wild(ish) deer, that you can get close to, take photos, then eat the burgers in the cafe. They are so successful there they have to be managed, yet it's turned into a nice side venture whilst being an attraction.

Rather than say these people have personality disorders, isn't this just the materialistic way of the current state of the population, where in certain groups it's acceptable behaviour when in others that isn't. Some of here treat GAS as a trophy collection. The good outcome of this is that it's been publicised so much. If it makes people think their behaviour is unacceptable then that could only be a good thing.
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I know you're right there's a lot of money to be made out of big game hunting so may as well use the money towards conservation which must be expensive
It still makes me upset and angry to look at a photo of some guy posing next to a dead animal that he has shot tho
As my missus pointed out if they have a big cat that's no longer breeding and getting on a bit the park authorities could select this animal for culling and charge someone to do it
This wasn't the case with Cecil the Lion tho the guy just picked a random lion and shot it with a crossbow and subjected it to a lot of cruelty with it didn't die instantly
 
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Thanks for all the replies everyone really interesting to hear the different points of view too :):):)
Please don't let it get personal though would be a shame if this thread degenerated into a slanging match like so many others
 
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ST4 said:
You say pointless




you say perfectly fine.

Which is it?

Big game hunting is fun for people, and perfectly legal (albiet not in the case of cecil). Some people find shooting pheasants fun, others lions.

I really don't see the mass hysteria over big game hunting or fox hunting, or bull fighting. I really do not.
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Comprehension and context. I say one kind of shooting is pointless (killing just for fun) and another is perfectly fine (shooting to eat). Why is that so difficult to fathom?
 
hoover.gif


;)

Lets keep this one track people.
 
Phil V said:
Comprehension and context. I say one kind of shooting is pointless (killing just for fun) and another is perfectly fine (shooting to eat). Why is that so difficult to fathom?
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You're post said shooting for fun was acceptable. I quoted it.

There is nothing wrong with shooting wildlife for fun, be that pheasants or lions. It's legal, people enjoy it and it's a source of income for poorer countries.

What's the issue with people scratching the inner hunter gatherer itches?

POAH said:
I'd like to go big game hunting the "hunters" good way of getting rid of bad genetics
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There is so much I could say but I won't...
 
ST4 said:
You're post said shooting for fun was acceptable. I quoted it.

There is nothing wrong with shooting wildlife for fun, be that pheasants or lions. It's legal, people enjoy it and it's a source of income for poorer countries.

What's the issue with people scratching the inner hunter gatherer itches?



There is so much I could say but I won't...
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Apologies, I assumed it was obvious I meant target / clay pigeon shooting for fun, shooting animals to eat.

Why would you ask 'what's the issue' I've told you several times over many months that IMHO and the opinion of many experts, animal cruelty is linked to psychopathic behaviour. Hunting game to eat is surely 'scratching the hunter gatherer itch' whereas hunting a predator to prove you're superior is a sign you're a k******d. You see no difference between shooting a small bird to eat or a giant predator to hang on the wall, I see a huge difference.
 
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Curiously someone mentioned "escapee's"

There is a large piece of farm land that I hunt sometimes (with BoP's)
Surrounded by more farm land, this "small" piece is about 1000 acres, one large lake, stocked with carp,
full of ducks and geese, a 2 large copse with small deer and rabbits etc.
(and is private with no public access but that doesn't always mean "private" of course ;) )

On more than one occasion I've seen tracks on the perimeter of the largest copse, too large to be a dog, (and no claws)
So that rules out Cheetah on both counts, but I'd guess Panther / Puma .

What makes this even more plausible a "private collection" not that far away as the cat runs, was shut down awhile ago, for
having less big cats than was actually on the "stock list" ;)

There have never been any 100% confirmed sightings, so
who knows for sure? ...
 
viv1969 said:
You clearly know nothing at all about psychiatric problems.
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There is no need to get personal.

However, I will dispute your assumption, as a former police officer, married to a RMN :-)
 
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RIR said:
There is no need to get personal.

However, I will dispute your assumption, as a former police officer, married to a RMN :)
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I'm with you on this - isn't tormenting animals one of the three key indicators of sociopathy - the other two being bed wetting and fire starting (For the hard of thinking and/or trolls, note that I said tormenting -I don't have a problem with hunting for food or to protect oneself or ones livestock so long as its done humanely ... which rules out inexpertly shooting the quarry with an unsuitable weapon then leaving it for 40 hours until you follow up)
 
So is big game hunting then equal to tormenting animals? I think the psychiatrists meant something else when those links were made. More akin to that chap in school with his magnifying glass who like to burn sleeping animals.

Sure psychiatrist will undoubtedly have an opinion about people with guns who do it for fun, but not in the category as some on here are making out. That is just disingenuous.

On a side note; I used to date a very long time ago a psychiatrist, now there was someone who had some serious issues. And no, it wasn't because of going out with me :p
 
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dejongj said:
So is big game hunting then equal to tormenting animals?
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It was fairly clear cut - its sociopathic indicator to like causing pain for no reason other than it makes you feel powerful. That describes shooting a lion in a gut with a crossbow bolt then leaving it to suffer for 40 hours, perfectly.

Calling what these halfwits do 'big game hunting' is a serious misnomer - hunting requires a level of skill and field craft and is usually done for a reason (and done legally) - paying someone else a shed load of cash lure a lion to a stand so you can inexpertly shoot it with a weapon not powerful enough or expertly used enough for a clean kill for no reason than your own ego is not 'hunting' by any reasonable definition (likewise killing animals that have been hand reared for the purpose and don't therefore see humans as a threat until its too late.
 
Canned hunting is very popular which is better than the alternative for all but probably the hunter who misses out on authenticity. The hunter gets a nice looking trophy with no scars, the animal will hopefully have a quicker death and the people who run the hunt get paid and reinvest. I've heard of people hunting grizzly bears with crossbows, all to do with the draw weight and if you hit a kill zone. Some only let you hunt with arrows on their land as gunshots spook the animals.
 
RIR said:
There is no need to get personal.

However, I will dispute your assumption, as a former police officer, married to a RMN :)
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And each is relevant how?
 
big soft moose said:
It was fairly clear cut - its sociopathic indicator to like causing pain for no reason other than it makes you feel powerful. That describes shooting a lion in a gut with a crossbow bolt then leaving it to suffer for 40 hours, perfectly.

Calling what these halfwits do 'big game hunting' is a serious misnomer - hunting requires a level of skill and field craft and is usually done for a reason (and done legally) - paying someone else a shed load of cash lure a lion to a stand so you can inexpertly shoot it with a weapon not powerful enough or expertly used enough for a clean kill for no reason than your own ego is not 'hunting' by any reasonable definition (likewise killing animals that have been hand reared for the purpose and don't therefore see humans as a threat until its too late.
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Now now, no need to make generalisations and go down the route of name calling. This thread is intended not to be a rant regarding Cecil if I understood the OP correctly.

I can only speak for myself, my attraction to hunting has nothing to do with a desire to cause pain or to feel powerful. In fact the suggestion and association that that is the reason is completely alien to me.

I'm sure there will be some people that are like that, I do not buy it that there is a direct correlation.
 
dejongj said:
On a side note; I used to date a very long time ago a psychiatrist, now there was someone who had some serious issues. And no, it wasn't because of going out with me :p
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Thats not what she told me :p

But anyhow,


Ignoring the fact that it was an iconic tourist attraction that was killed for a minute.

Bow hunting is legal in the USA and Africa,
and at 30-40 yards killing range takes a lot more skill, field craft / tracking etc than taking a 2/300 yard rifle shot.

I would suggest that someone underestimated the distance ( it was dark),
hence the wounding.
I would also blame the guide for the 40 hour track down.
The reasoning behind that?
1) the guide should have also had a "bead" on the target it case it want tits up, who's to say that the lion wouldn't turn if wounded?
2) what kind of tracker takes almost two days to track down a wounded animal?

The dentist paid as he see's it, good money to hunt a trophy,
and he was duped by a so called guide into an easy kill.
That as above, went tits up, for what ever reason.
 
I may be wrong here (I frequently am :)).

But, a Zimbabwe Government spokesman was on the news, saying that:

Bow hunting is illegal in Zimbabwe, and,
Night hunting is illegal in Zimbabwe.

And I believe that Dr. Palmer has previous for shooting a bear outwith the permitted territory in the US.
 
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RIR said:
I may be wrong here (I frequently am :)).

But, a Zimbabwe Government spokesman was on the news, saying that:

Bow hunting is illegal in Zimbabwe, and,
Night hunting is illegal in Zimbabwe.

And I believe that Dr. Palmer has previous for shooting a bear outwith the permitted territory in the US.
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I'm not denying the possibility, but I prefer evidence based justice, and merely having previous luckily isn't enough.

A Zimbabwe government spokesmen also said on Saturday that Jericho was killed ;) I've never been impressed with Mugabe's administration. But I don't know either whether it is legal or not, ultimately we all know that killing that lion was illegal so whether using a bow or cover of night just adds to the same list.
 
RIR said:
I may be wrong here (I frequently am :)).

But, a Zimbabwe Government spokesman was on the news, saying that:

Bow hunting is illegal in Zimbabwe, and,
Night hunting is illegal in Zimbabwe. .
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Maybe the law has "suddenly" changed, but a quick google conforms that bow hunting was legal in Zimbabwe at the beginning of the year.
Night hunting I'm not sure about, it wouldn't surprise me if it was illegal though.

Edit it would seem that the use of "lights" ( lamping) is illegal there and
Zimbabwe is suspending the hunting of lions, leopards and elephants outside Hwange National Park in response to the killing of Cecil, the African country's most famous lion, in July, officials said.
 
viv1969 said:
And each is relevant how?
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Anything constructive to put forward in this discussion? And, if you don't see how it's relevant, never mind. R(egistered) M(ental) - read Psychiatric - N(urse).

It's a widely held opinion among Psychiatric professionals, that macho posing beside a dead predator, larger than themselves, with the weapons that that they used to kill them, is ego inflation to the point of Psychopathic disorder. If you must, kill it, and go away quietly, with its head for the wall at home; don't post your grinning mugshots for everyone to see what a big brave man you are. (But not brave enough to reopen his Dental Practice).

The Inner City gangs frequently post photographs of themselves with weapons and/or making defiant gestures on social media sites. Very similar.
 
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RIR said:
Anything constructive to put forward in this discussion? And, if you don't see how it's relevant, never mind.

It's a widely held opinion among Psychiatric professionals, that macho posing beside a dead predator, larger than themselves, with the weapons that that they used to kill them, is ego inflation to the point of Psychopathic disorder. If you must, kill it, and go away quietly, with your head for the wall at home; don't post your grinning mugshots for everyone to see what a big brave man you are. (But not brave enough to reopen his Dental Practice).

The Inner City gangs frequently post photographs of themselves with weapons and/or making defiant gestures on social media sites. Very similar.
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Ah but that is rather a different slant on it, and has nothing to do with hunting as you've highlighted yourself as well. It would have helped if that distinction was drawn immediately.
 
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Cobra said:
Maybe the law has "suddenly" changed, but a quick google conforms that bow hunting was legal in Zimbabwe at the beginning of the year.
Night hunting I'm not sure about, it wouldn't surprise me if it was illegal though.

Edit it would seem that the use of "lights" ( lamping) is illegal there and
Zimbabwe is suspending the hunting of lions, leopards and elephants outside Hwange National Park in response to the killing of Cecil, the African country's most famous lion, in July, officials said.
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Yes I was looking into it, the law seems quite clear to me. Bow hunting is not allowed in national (safari) parks, but is allowed and since 1999 without restrictions on private or tribal land.

So it all depends as per usual :)
 
RIR said:
The Inner City gangs frequently post photographs of themselves with weapons and/or making defiant gestures on social media sites. Very similar.
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I would suggest that its always happened since time immemorial, even before the time of trick cyclists and anylists,
be that man v man or man v beast
its just that social media makes this soooo much easier to show off these days ;)
 
Cobra said:
I would suggest that its always happened since time immemorial, even before the time of trick cyclists and anylists,
be that man v man or man v beast
its just that social media makes this soooo much easier to show off these days ;)
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Yup, every nobody can afford to broadcast around the world with a click and think they know the whole story.
 
dejongj said:
Now now, no need to make generalisations and go down the route of name calling. This thread is intended not to be a rant regarding Cecil if I understood the OP correctly.

I can only speak for myself, my attraction to hunting has nothing to do with a desire to cause pain or to feel powerful. In fact the suggestion and association that that is the reason is completely alien to me.

I'm sure there will be some people that are like that, I do not buy it that there is a direct correlation.
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Yes exactly the thread was about if hunting can be justified if the proceeds go back into the cost of running the national park
 
RIR said:
Anything constructive to put forward in this discussion? And, if you don't see how it's relevant, never mind. R(egistered) M(ental) - read Psychiatric - N(urse).

It's a widely held opinion among Psychiatric professionals, that macho posing beside a dead predator, larger than themselves, with the weapons that that they used to kill them, is ego inflation to the point of Psychopathic disorder. If you must, kill it, and go away quietly, with its head for the wall at home; don't post your grinning mugshots for everyone to see what a big brave man you are. (But not brave enough to reopen his Dental Practice).

The Inner City gangs frequently post photographs of themselves with weapons and/or making defiant gestures on social media sites. Very similar.
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Yes I know what it means.
But it's not what you are personally.

Where is your evidence for these widely held psychiatric professional opinions?
Please don't tell me to go look for them.
You put them forth....you back them up.

I'm not keen on big game hunting, nor those that do it, but I'm not about to put it down to severe psychiatric deficiencies, or sociopathic tendencies, any more than I would for those who derive pleasure from driving at ridiculous speeds on public roads, or even those who love attempting to free climb El Capitan.

I don't like it. You don't like it. Hell, many don't like it; but a great many people do it, and do it within the law.

Your bandwagon condemnation and claims to nonexistent professional diagnosis is laughable.
 
viv1969 said:
I don't like it. You don't like it. Hell, many don't like it; but a great many people do it, and do it within the law.
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And that really is the point isn't it? they are a great many things that are legal, that other people disagree with.
So who's right the "anti's" or those "working" within the law ;)

Oh and a general heads up, don't make me put my green hat on its too hot to be wearing a hat,
but personal attacks are exactly what got the last thread shut down.
Moan and bitch about game game hunting as much as you like, moaning and bitching about members is taboo ;)
 
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viv1969 said:
...........is laughable.
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Personal again. Oh dear. Look it up yourself. I'll leave this discussion now, thanks to one poster. Thank you to (nearly) all who contributed, whatever side of the fence you sat, in a reasoned manner. It is a divisive and emotive topic, akin to religion or politics.
 
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