Beware Cowboy Cavity Wall Insulation

rhody

rhody

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I manage a range of properties for my employer and we have had a spectacular incident of failed cavity wall insulation on a domestic residence.

The detached property is suffering from severe damp and rainwater penetration and it was confirmed last week that it was the cavity wall insulation which has not been installed correctly.

It has not been installed in accordance with the manufacturers own guidelines and the installation is not in accordance with the requirements of the British Standards.

The pre-installation survey to confirm the suitability of the property did not identify the defects in the external walls or establish the exposure rating of the building.

Looks like the solicitors are going to get rich on this one.

I have read of certain companies ticking all the survey boxes just to win the business and this is a prime example of a spectacular failure at all levels with a massive bill for remediation.

Beware of Cowboy Cavity Wall Insulation Companies - they are out there trading at the moment.

So much for professional self regulation of the cavity wall insulation industry.

This cowboy installation will require large sections of external walling to be removed in order to remove the product and provide clear cavities once again.
 
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What was it that made the properties unsuitable? I must admit we've been tempted to have this done as our place does get cold in depths of winter but stuff like damp worries has put me off. I assume the new insulation can just bridge the cavity and so if the outer leaf gets excessive moisture it just passes through? Our neighbours just had it done this week and raving about it at the moment.
 
Just like the failed properties featured in the BBC programme the brickwork has to be in good condition; cavities must be clear and free of debris; any holes in the cavity wall must be sealed (air bricks; pipes etc); the installers must ensure all the wall is filled or cold spots will occur and dampness will appear; there can be no gaps in the cavity fill - which relies on the skill of the installer; properties in high exposure areas for driving wind and rain are very high risk.

Every installer has a strict code of practice to follow - but some obviously don't follow it.

Each property should be fully surveyed before the installation - but things are being missed or ignored in order to win the business.

Buyer beware on this one.

You should be able to trust the surveyors report - but clearly you cannot rely on the professional integrity or ability of them all.

The pressure to make a sale and get some commission is clearly more attractive to some than making sure the property is suitable for the insulation works.

Now many sections of wall have to be demolished in order to get the failed product out again which will ruin the external elevation, appearance and value of the property.
 
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It also seems the Sunday Telegraph are aware of cavity wall insulation failures.

Their columnist states " I do not think cavity wall insulation is a good idea."


http://www.askjeff.co.uk/cavity.html

Why are so many properties not being surveyed or inspected correctly prior to the insulation being installed?
 
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Years ago, the trend was to use a mixture of polystyrene balls mixed with a little glue to stick them together in the cavity. Nice idea if the equipment is cleaned properly and frequently. However, the cleaning cost time and effort as well as solvent costs so was often usually ignored - it was far simpler to simply leave the glue out, avoiding the gumming up as well as the down time and costs. The only problem was that the world started filling up with expanded polystyrene granules as they were sucked up by any draught over the top of the cavity and grept out through any orifice large enough! Easy enough to cure - sue the supplier and get them back to vacuum the remaining balls out of the wall and get them to foot the bill for the 2 part foam stuff in place of the evacuated balls.

As an aside, I keep getting spam phone calls from an unknown international number based on the sub-continent (judging by the accent) and specifically from a "gentleman" claiming the name of Clive (which I'm sure he's lying about!). Since we do have a few international friends who prefer the medium of voice rather than e-mails, I can't simply answer with a fake premium rate type message involving some reference to the caller's sexuality etc but I have instead taken to answering in Greek (where most of our wanted international calls come from). When the caller continues in English, I switch to a mixture of (probably misremembered) school Euro gabble ("Non sprechen Anglais! Me in Italy.") which seems to have stopped the problem (well, not had a call for a few days now). What brought this to mind is that the original calls were trying to sell me cavity wall insulation at a cost to me of zero, the cost being borne by either the government or one of the energy suppliers. Either of those options should (IMO) be using UK based call centres rather than Asian ones.
 
Interesting thread. I was thinking of having cavitys done. I understood these days that the walls were insulated with blown fibre rather than foam though. Maybe I'm best just not to bother. Had the loft done to 270mm so that'll help a lot I hope.
 
We have recently had our walls surveyed. They are not suitable, due to the cavity being too small. The surveyor said that the sales team are on a commission for referral, and then another commission for successful sale. He warned us that they will come again, try to get us to agree to another survey (another commission) in the hope the surveyor won't be as careful (so then even more money), and to ignore any story they come up with.

Lo and behold, we have had three visits from sales people from the same company over the last few months. Apparently, a new type of wall insulation is now available. This new technology is compatible with our walls. Of course, they have no clue what the new technology actually is.

Be warned - stay away from these cowboys. Only certain walls are compatible with the insulation.
 
Mine was done end of last year, I contacted my energy company and they referred me - the company that did the installation is based in Wiltshire rather than Mumbai. Expanded polystyrene balls, glued together - and they definitely are glued together, the smell of PVA gave the game away and a hand shoved down the cavity from above confirmed.

It has made a big difference to how quickly the house warms up and how warm it stays overnight.
 
DorsetDude said:
Interesting thread. I was thinking of having cavitys done. I understood these days that the walls were insulated with blown fibre rather than foam though. Maybe I'm best just not to bother. Had the loft done to 270mm so that'll help a lot I hope.
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Had ours done a couple of years ago, blown fibre cavity wall insulation and big top-up to the loft insulation ... definitely made a difference and no signs of any nasties.
 
gramps said:
Had ours done a couple of years ago, blown fibre cavity wall insulation and big top-up to the loft insulation ... definitely made a difference and no signs of any nasties.
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If the property is suitable it's fine and works very well but some companies are ignoring their own industry guidelines and British Standard requirements in order to get the order.

The remedial costs and inconvenience for bad installations far outweigh any energy savings and the property is then devalued in appearance.
 
DorsetDude said:
Interesting thread. I was thinking of having cavitys done. I understood these days that the walls were insulated with blown fibre rather than foam though. Maybe I'm best just not to bother. Had the loft done to 270mm so that'll help a lot I hope.
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Your property could well be OK - but some surveyors are under pressure to get orders and things get "missed" or conveniently "not noticed" during the crucial pre-installation inspection
 
I did wonder this a couple of years ago. I had a couple of salesmen turn up and try to get me to sign up. So I let them inspect the walls and the first one said my property wasn't suitable as the cavity was too thin. But the second one who turned up a few days later said it was fine and would be suitable. I never got it done, too many doubts floating around.
 
I had my loft and cavity done by my British gas late last year, (while it may not have been their name on the guys pay packet, it was all over the vans :D )

The house has been noticeably warmer throughout the colder times.....can't say if it's been cooler as they claim because it didn't get hot enough in the summer to judge it :(

so don't be too put off getting it done......maybe get a second opinion on the survey report before you commit if you're in any doubt.

It was a blown fibre type stuff that was used iirc.....kind of like a rock wool.
 
digitalfailure said:
so don't be too put off getting it done......maybe get a second opinion on the survey report before you commit if you're in any doubt.
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The best way is to read up and understand what causes the problems - as provided in the detailed links above.

Don't assume the surveyor will act professionally or follow the minimum industry guidelines - some ignore them to get the sale.

Not all properties are suitable for cavity wall insulation.

There are several types of insulation on the market - each must have a BBA Certificate which means it has been tested for suitability.

The BBA Certificate will state the minimum standards required for your property to be deemed acceptable for cavity wall insulation.

It is these minimum standards which are being ignored by the surveyors and installers alike.

Don't assume your surveyor or installer will act with professionalism or integrity if it means they could lose a sale.

If you live in a high risk property and it goes wrong - you will be hugely inconvenienced and will lose thousands of pounds in the process.
 
faddius said:
I did wonder this a couple of years ago. I had a couple of salesmen turn up and try to get me to sign up. So I let them inspect the walls and the first one said my property wasn't suitable as the cavity was too thin. But the second one who turned up a few days later said it was fine and would be suitable. I never got it done, too many doubts floating around.
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At work, we asked 3 insulation companies to survey and quote for a large 5 bed detached 1950's property as part of a Government offer to improve energy efficiency.

The first surveyor said it was acceptable; the second surveyor said it was not suitable and the third surveyor said it could be made acceptable if £3,500 of external brickwork repairs were carried out before the work started.

Makes you wonder doesn't it or if it doesn't, it should at least raise an eyebrow?
 
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We had an offer for cavity wall insulation a while back. Guy came out and surveyed the exterior, etc etc.
30 Minutes later he said we were suitable and would get us booked in.

Two things came out of it on the supposed day of pumping the insulation after quizzing the guys.
Firstly no one happened to ask if we were going to change our ageing windows (which we are) thus we are not suitable as if you pump the cavity then replace your Windows and doors the insulation drops and you create cold spots (damp areas).
Secondly, at no point had the cavity been drilled and boroscoped to check the cavity thickness and also the cleanliness of it (no snot etc).

Upon telling the men who had just unpacked the generator ready that I wasn't letting it go ahead, they were less than impressed and said the surveyor should have done these things, I told them they hadn't and sent them packing.
If it hadn't of been for some Internet reading on the topic I wouldn't have been any of the wiser to potential problems and corner cutting going on.
Ironically a couple of weeks later I got a call asking if I had replaced my Windows and doors! Cheek of it.
 
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stupar said:
Secondly, at no point had the cavity been drilled and boroscoped to check the cavity thickness and also the cleanliness of it (no snot etc).


If it hadn't of been for some Internet reading on the topic I wouldn't have been any of the wiser to potential problems and corner cutting going on.
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Well done for picking up on those points stupar - that could have been a very costly mistake had you relied solely on the surveyors report and advice.

The system of safeguards and checking should protect consumers with older or problematic properties but the surveyors are not following their own industry guidelines in some instances.

It may only be a small percentage of failures but if you end up being one of the unlucky few - it is a very costly nightmare to put right.

The guidelines put in place to protect consumers are being ignored in the race to get the sale and shift insulation from their warehouse into your walls.
 
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I thought the idea of cavity walls was to create a air break between the inside and outside walls to stop damp crossing the bridge between them. Cavity wall insulation does exactly what the walls were designed to prevent, a path for damp to cross. If we had cavity walls there is absolutely no way anyone could persuade me to get any product put between them.

Realspeed
 
realspeed said:
I thought the idea of cavity walls was to create a air break between the inside and outside walls to stop damp crossing the bridge between them. Cavity wall insulation does exactly what the walls were designed to prevent, a path for damp to cross. If we had cavity walls there is absolutely no way anyone could persuade me to get any product put between them.

Realspeed
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Spot on Realspeed.

If the brickwork or cavities are in a poor condition, that's just a couple of valid reasons why many properties are not suitable for cavity wall insulation.

The surveyors report should identify all defects with the brickwork, cavities, air ventilation, exposure rating etc

In too many cases - this is not happening and the homeowners then suffer huge financial losses and inconvenience far greater than any reduction or saving in energy bills.

The remedial works alone will devalue your home as the the repairs cannot be disguised externally.

Not all homes are suitable for cavity wall insulation - if the survey is wrongly completed or incorrectly assessed - you will lose thousands of pounds and end up with a devalued property as a result
 
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Hmmmm..... I wonder if there's a space in the market for a mobile instant FLIR survey to show where heat's escaping? I've wanted an excuse to buy myself a FLIR camera! Problem is, it means w**king...
 
rhody said:
I manage a range of properties for my employer and we have had a spectacular incident of failed cavity wall insulation on a domestic residence.

The detached property is suffering from severe damp and rainwater penetration and it was confirmed last week that it was the cavity wall insulation which has not been installed correctly.

It has not been installed in accordance with the manufacturers own guidelines and the installation is not in accordance with the requirements of the British Standards.

The pre-installation survey to confirm the suitability of the property did not identify the defects in the external walls or establish the exposure rating of the building.

Looks like the solicitors are going to get rich on this one.

I have read of certain companies ticking all the survey boxes just to win the business and this is a prime example of a spectacular failure at all levels with a massive bill for remediation.

Beware of Cowboy Cavity Wall Insulation Companies - they are out there trading at the moment.

So much for professional self regulation of the cavity wall insulation industry.

This cowboy installation will require large sections of external walling to be removed in order to remove the product and provide clear cavities once again.
Click to expand...

I'm the sales manager for the uks leading cavity wall manufacturer , what product was fitted?
 
Nod said:
Hmmmm..... I wonder if there's a space in the market for a mobile instant FLIR survey to show where heat's escaping? I've wanted an excuse to buy myself a FLIR camera! Problem is, it means w**king...
Click to expand...

If you ever buy one let me know - I manage over 150 properties for my employer and the most common complaint is "I can't afford to heat my home" - so if I could identify where and why the heat is being lost - I'd pay to find out prior to any invasive investigative and repair work.

But, you would have to work :lol:

Failing that, perhaps my employer doesn't know he needs one until I get into work tomorrow.............................................
 
rhody said:
Spot on Realspeed.

If the brickwork or cavities are in a poor condition, that's just a couple of valid reasons why many properties are not suitable for cavity wall insulation.

The surveyors report should identify all defects with the brickwork, cavities, air ventilation, exposure rating etc

In too many cases - this is not happening and the homeowners then suffer huge financial losses and inconvenience far greater than any reduction or saving in energy bills.

The remedial works alone will devalue your home as the the repairs cannot be disguised externally.

Not all homes are suitable for cavity wall insulation - if the survey is wrongly completed or incorrectly assessed - you will lose thousands of pounds and end up with a devalued property as a result
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The home owner should not lose at all , if they have went with a proper company they will get a 25 year CIGA guarantee
If the product need to be removed ( at CIGA'cost)
The a brick house will have bricks removed and mortered back in and a rendered house will be re rendered back to a match.
I have been involved in many extraction jobs because of other cowboy company's.
 
stumac said:
I'm the sales manager for the uks leading cavity wall manufacturer , what product was fitted?
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Hi stumac,

It was a BBA certified product and the installation has been correctly registered with the Local Authority so we will be taking legal action against the installers for the damages and losses we have incurred.

The installation is clearly in breach of the T&C's of the BBA Certificate and this week we are consulting solicitors and arranging for RICS surveyors to independently inspect the failed installation, take their own photographs and prepare their reports accordingly.

We have taken photographs of all the problems at every stage and the property is currently uninhabitable.

What I can say is now that the plaster has been removed from the walls, in 2 of the bedrooms - you can see daylight through the external walls from inside the rooms - so it's no wonder water was pouring into the cavities and tracking across to the inside skin and making the house damp in many areas.

I have given as much information as I can in an open forum at this stage but until I have all the facts ready it wouldn't be fair to name any names associated with this failure.

Suffice to say I have 3 journalists interested in using the photos and the story when we are ready.

I am sure you will understand why that is as far as I am prepared to go at this the moment.

I am totally dismayed by what has happened to our property.

The surveyor did not record any defects at the time of his inspection and the installers did not question the presence of the defects either - which simply defies belief.

We are still exposing the problem areas in order to establish the full extent of the damage and damp caused by this non-compliant installation.

Is there anything else you would advise me to do at this stage in order to protect my employers interests?
 
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stumac said:
The home owner should not lose at all , if they have went with a proper company they will get a 25 year CIGA guarantee
If the product need to be removed ( at CIGA'cost)
The a brick house will have bricks removed and mortered back in and a rendered house will be re rendered back to a match.
I have been involved in many extraction jobs because of other cowboy company's.
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I certainly hope our property is totally reinstated into the condition it was in prior to the cavity wall insulation being installed.

Internal decorations were ruined because of the water penetration - large damp patches appeared at many levels from floor to ceiling and wall paper was peeling from the walls.

Post insulation - the property was damper and harder to heat than before the work was undertaken as the walls were so damp.

Any repaired bricks and mortar patches will never match the old brickwork properly and on a large rambling detached house every elevation will be affected from dpc to eaves like a giant patchwork quilt.

Taking the badly installed insulation out is only the start of the repairs on this occasion.

It is a huge pity that the industry has to undertake so many extraction jobs because of the cowboy installations as you mention above.

Why does the industry allow the cowboy companies to operate and cause so much misery and distress to home owners?
 
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Having any cavity filled by a cowboy sounds far to broke back mountain for my liking. :|
 
Any system which requires the blocking up of vents is useless. The whole point of cavity walls is that there is freely moving air in the gaps. Once you fill the cavity you've ruined the system!

If the house is still chilly then battening and insulating the exterior walls on the inside is what I'd do.
 
Funny, I this now has me worried. I had a company put poly beads in mine a few years ago and ever since each winter our bedrooms suffer with mould on the walls. I wondered if it had anything to do with the installation. Think a phone call to cosy tops is needed, as no survey was ever carried out. Where do I stand if there is a problem?
 
Stokesy said:
Funny, I this now has me worried. I had a company put poly beads in mine a few years ago and ever since each winter our bedrooms suffer with mould on the walls. I wondered if it had anything to do with the installation. Think a phone call to cosy tops is needed, as no survey was ever carried out. Where do I stand if there is a problem?
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Was the installation guaranteed and registered with the Local Authority Stokesy?

I would start by reading all the paperwork you may have first.

It could be that the installation is fine and that the mould is appearing because of another issue but once you've read your paperwork I would ring the installers and see what they have to say.

I would also ask them if they could let you have a copy of the original survey report which is an essential part of the pre-installation process to ascertain if the property is suitable.

Is your brickwork in good condition externally with nothing other than hairline cracks visible? The bricks and mortar should be in good condition (no frost damage) - there should not be any signs of open gaps or mortar joints anywhere and the bricks should not be spalling or perished or frost damaged. If rendered externally - the render should also be in good condition. Hairline cracks only should be visible - nothing more.

If you are in an exposed location - near open countryside, high on a hill, near large areas of open water or close to the sea or you experience heavy, driving rain - you should read the survey report very carefully as all these factors can be problematic with cavity fill.

If you can establish what material they put in the cavity it should have a BBA Number. If you can find that you can read the terms and conditions of how the material should have been installed here

http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/

Once you know the BBA Certificate Number you can check to see if all the conditions of installation were fulfilled.

For instance if the product was say Polypearl, the Agrement Certificate covering its suitablity for installation is 96/3228 and its conditions for use are here

http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/CertificateFiles/32/3228PS1i1.pdf

If you carefully read the T&C's of the suitability of the product for your property - this will be a good starting point.

But first of all you need to know the product name or the Certificate Number.

I sincerely hope it is not related to your cavity fill installation - I would not wish that on anyone.
 
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rhody said:
I certainly hope our property is totally reinstated into the condition it was in prior to the cavity wall insulation being installed.

Internal decorations were ruined because of the water penetration - large damp patches appeared at many levels from floor to ceiling and wall paper was peeling from the walls.

Post insulation - the property was damper and harder to heat than before the work was undertaken as the walls were so damp.

Any repaired bricks and mortar patches will never match the old brickwork properly and on a large rambling detached house every elevation will be affected from dpc to eaves like a giant patchwork quilt.

Taking the badly installed insulation out is only the start of the repairs on this occasion.

It is a huge pity that the industry has to undertake so many extraction jobs because of the cowboy installations as you mention above.

Why does the industry allow the cowboy companies to operate and cause so much misery and distress to home owners?
Click to expand...

I agree about the cowboys and unfortunately it is something we are constantly working on
I personally think its too many sales men on commission only
 
srichards said:
Any system which requires the blocking up of vents is useless. The whole point of cavity walls is that there is freely moving air in the gaps. Once you fill the cavity you've ruined the system!

If the house is still chilly then battening and insulating the exterior walls on the inside is what I'd do.
Click to expand...

Vents should ALWAYS be lined and if there not the the insulation company must line them
 
Stokesy said:
Funny, I this now has me worried. I had a company put poly beads in mine a few years ago and ever since each winter our bedrooms suffer with mould on the walls. I wondered if it had anything to do with the installation. Think a phone call to cosy tops is needed, as no survey was ever carried out. Where do I stand if there is a problem?
Click to expand...

You should have a guarantee
It sounds to me that the walls are not fully filled, which is creating cold spots which then in turn is attracting the hot moist air in you house to condensate on them

Insist on a boroscope test to be carried out at the problem areas
 
stumac said:
Vents should ALWAYS be lined and if there not the the insulation company must line them
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When you say lined, do you mean that all internal ventilation into the cavity from inside the house has to be bunged up? Or do you mean that the vents are made into sealed areas so that you still get the ventilation via outside but this isn't venting into the cavity itself?
 
srichards said:
When you say lined, do you mean that all internal ventilation into the cavity from inside the house has to be bunged up? Or do you mean that the vents are made into sealed areas so that you still get the ventilation via outside but this isn't venting into the cavity itself?
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Yes the air flows through the vent and not into the cavity. So then when the wall is filled with insulation the vent in not affected
 
If the cavity is filled how do you stop the damp bridging from outside?
 
We had some cavity wall salesmen drop by (they we're doing the rounds) just as the SKY man was packing up after upgrading our SKY to SKY Anytime which involved upgrading the cable between the dish and the box.

Our old SKY cable went through the old wooden window frames which had been replaced with UPVC double glazing.

Unfortunately the SKY man had tried to drill through the walls and had given up as the walls are granite and 3 feet thick LOL

The cavity guys had a quick chat with SKY man and left us alone.

The loft insulation people have also visited us about the 'free' extra thickness but we've about 50 bin bags of kids clothes in the attic which (whilst they do a good job) are just too much hassle to sort out just now.
 
srichards said:
If the cavity is filled how do you stop the damp bridging from outside?
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Water does not pass across bead , but fibre will soak up water and cause problems, here in n.ireland we haven't used fibre in years
 
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