Best MF camera for me?

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Carl Hall

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Good morning everyone :)

For the last six or so years I’ve been getting more and more into photography, and have recently decided that I’d like to venture into the medium format film world. I’m of a generation that grew up with digital cameras, so I’ve had little experience of using film (except from using my dad’s Praktica BX20 which first gave me the photography bug), so I feel somewhat out of my depth!

I’ve been trying to do my own research into MF film cameras before writing another one of the “what camera shall I get?” threads. Now that I have an idea in mind I’m hoping someone will give me their thoughts.

My main use for the camera will be colour landscape work, but I might occasionally take some portraits or still car photos.

Because there are so many different types and brands out there, I thought it best to really think about what I’ll need from it, and I’ve come up with this list:

• Not terribly concerned about the weight or size, as any landscape work that involves a long trek up a hill will be done with my current 5D2.
• Not really bothered if it is slow and clunky to use as I won’t be using it for any fast moving subjects.
• I think a totally manual camera with a manual film winder and shutter cock etc attracts me more, as it’ll force me to work slower and take my time, which will make every decision methodical and deliberate, thus (hopefully) making me a better photographer over time.
• I think I prefer a waist level viewer, as I’d like to see how the shot will look through a screen without using a viewfinder
• Definitely needs to be medium format, but haven’t given much thought to what size.
• Lastly, it needs to be less than £200 really. I know that limits me quite a bit, but my girlfriend and I are trying to save for a house at the moment, and I don’t think spending £500 on a Hasselblad 500cm will put her in a great mood!
• Ideally, I want one that will make me look cool when I use it with my curly moustache that I’m currently growing (a joke, of course)

I’ve spent the last few days reading up on the subject and all the different cameras, and with the above facts (and budget) in mind I am leaning towards a Mamiya C220 with the 80mm 2.8 lens. These can currently be found on eBay for £120-150, which is ideal!

If anyones got any recommendations based on what I’ve said so far, I’d be grateful to hear them.

Also, be prepared for additional “what film shall I use” and “how/where to get it developed” threads coming in the next few weeks as I start on my exciting medium format journey! :banana:

Thanks very much,

Carl
 
Welcome to the best part of TP, Carl!

One thing you haven't exactly specified is which specific format you want. TLRs like the Mamiya you mention are 6x6 square format, and with a standard lens it does limit to some degree what you can do landscape wise if that is your main thing (though you can get interchangeable lenses on the Mamiya C cameras). Obviously you can crop the final results, but if you're mainly going to want a rectangular end result, you'd probably be better off either going for a 6x4.5 format camera (such as Bronica ETRS which would be in your budget) or a 6x7 or 6x9 (which is less likely to be, other than a folding camera or suchlike). In fact, something like the ETRS (or a similar Mamiya 645) plus a couple of lenses might be exactly what you're after. I have personally just bought a Pentax 645n which is probably outside your budget but others will be along soon I'm sure who have experience with other 645 cameras that wouldn't be. These are much more versatile than a TLR too.
 
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Hi Carl, good questions and nice to see you have thought it through first. I think for your needs a Mamiya C220/330 would be ideal. This is one of the few twin lens reflex cameras that has interchangeable lenses and they are superbly sharp, it has a waist level finder, it probably weighs less than your 5Dwhatever and it will definitely make you look cool, probably cause you to grow a couple of inches taller and help you to win friends and influence people, it is also hip to be square and 6x6 is the squarest.

Here's mine, a C330F.

Mamiya-C330f by andysnapper1, on Flickr

and a shot taken with it

Leaves by andysnapper1, on Flickr

If you fancy something a little more compact and with a 6x9 neg the Ross Ensign 820 can be picked up for about half your budget.
As I'm sure you have seen there are flippin' loads of choices out there and I'm sure you will get lots more suggestions when the rest of the fusty and crusty section wake up from there mid-morning nap. :D
 
The Mamiya C220/330 are great cameras, both TLRs that offer interchangeable lenses. Not too heavy and simple to use.

There's a sticky at the top of the page with processing options listed http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/film-developing-in-the-uk.341566/
And also a guide if you've started using film or coming back to it after a break http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/threads/first-film-camera-ever-or-for-many-years.481985/

Other cameras available under £200 include the TLR YashicaMat 124G, the Bronica ETRS, the much nicer (IMHO) but not as flexible Mamiya 645 1000s, both of these are 6x45 format whereas the TLRs are 6x6 format and we all know its hip to be square :D
 
The good advice is all above; decide if you need an interchangeble lens system, your prefered negative size and your budget. Then buy an RB67... :D
 
What is particularly nice about the Mamiya TLRs like the C220 and C330, especially if you shoot landscapes with filters, is that you can use filters on the taking lens, but still have a nice, bright view through the viewing lens for composing. That said, if you like polarisers, those are more difficult with the twin lens designs, because you can't necessarily see the effect of the polarisation, although I believe there are some special polariser filters that fit both the viewing and taking lenses.

There are so many affordable options in medium format, the choice really comes down to your needs, although I do think that the Mamiya TLRs represent one of the best and most affordable entry options. Remember though that film cameras hold their value much better than any digital equipment, mostly because the market has already bottomed out and can only go up, so if you decide to switch or upgrade your MF camera at any point, it's not usually much of a problem to sell at or near the price you paid and pick up something else.

I personally mostly use a Bronica SQ-A, which is a 6x6 SLR system similar to the Hasselblads, but it's much more affordable.
 
Wow thanks very much for the quick replies!

I must admit that I haven't given too much thought to what format I'd like, but the square 6x6 does look very nice. I have written down all of the camera's you've all recommended and will have a look at them all :) I'm sure I'll have plenty more questions after that!

Thanks again,

Carl
 
Massive question with a different answer every time.
The first one you buy needs to be nice and simple so you just get out and enjoy it.

I have an RB67 and its great but heavy and not a walk arround.

What do you want from the MF camera ?

reading your post Mamiya 645?
 
steveo_mcg said:
The good advice is all above; decide if you need an interchangeble lens system, your prefered negative size and your budget. Then buy an RB67... :D
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I'd echo the above. The Bronica SQ's are a good budget option, as are the 645's if you'd rather have a more conventional format. But it's hard to suggest anything other than an RB if you can stretch your budget.
 
Waist level finders show the image laterally reversed; this isn't a problem with landscape formats photogrpahy, but if you turn the camera on its side for a portrait format the image is upside down. Not easy to work with without a tripod. Hence, if you want a waist level finder, you have two choices: 6x6 (square) images or a Mamiya RZ/RB67.

When I first bought a medium format camera, I went into the shop expecting to come out with a Hasselblad. I came out with a Mamiya RB67 because I preferred the handling. You may find that handling characteristics make the decison for you. I don't find the RZ67 heavy to carry around; but that might just be me.

The twin lens reflex options are fine if you're happy with square negatives. If you like square prints, fine; otherwise, you'll be reducing the usable negative area that you originally went into medium format to get.

For what it's worth, I also use a Mamiya C330 TLR, so I can vouch for that being an excellent camera.

One big difference between the electgronic RZ67 and the manual RB67 that irks me tremendously: the camera wants to save battery life, so if you have it on a tripod and use the mirror lock, it forces you to make the exposure within 60 seconds. I hate that as I prefer to have everything ready and wait for the wind to drop or the clouds to move.
 
steveo_mcg said:
The good advice is all above; decide if you need an interchangeble lens system, your prefered negative size and your budget. Then buy an RB67... :D
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This is good advice, but I would personally throw finder preference in the mix as well. If you prefer waist level finders, as I do, you're better with 6x6 cameras or 6x7 cameras with rotating backs, so you don't need to rotate the camera.

I don't generally use 6x4.5 cameras, because of this, but this wouldn't ever be an issue if you intend to use prism finders all the time.

Chris Haye said:
But it's hard to suggest anything other than an RB if you can stretch your budget.
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Although I'd very much like an RB67 myself and think they're very good cameras, I can also think of a number of reasons not to suggest an RB67.

I say this not to be antagonistic in any way, but just to highlight that these various MF cameras have different strengths/weaknesses that must be weighed up by the end user with regard to his/her own needs. Consequently, I'd be hesitant to suggest with any certainty that any camera is necessarily better than another for someone else.

Ultimately, a multitude of very good options have been discussed here, it's up to the OP now to determine which one best suits him.

Edit: I'd also add that the cameras we consider 'budget' options today (e.g., Mamiya TLRs, Bronica SQ, etc.) were truly professional cameras in their day with the quality and price tags to prove it. We're just lucky that the kits that might have cost thousands a number of years ago can now be acquired for a few hundred pounds.
 
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He's been very restrained in not pointing it out, but if you're looking for something portable for landscape work, then Mr. Bump's Fuji in the classifieds is worth considering.
 
@Cuchulainn I had kind of forgotten about that but yes it is epically good for that. But the OP wants the WLF so its maybe not for him.

On the plus side epically simple camera to use basically almost an MF digital with the light metre and ease of use.
 
Cuchulainn said:
He's been very restrained in not pointing it out, but if you're looking for something portable for landscape work, then Mr. Bump's Fuji in the classifieds is worth considering.
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Yep, the quality of the lenses on those MF Fuji rangefinders is fantastic and they're very light, which is ideal when trekking about shooting landscapes. As with any medium format cameras though, they're not without their quirks, such as the vertically-oriented viewfinders.
 
The Fuji MF is epic but in a different class its a super portable HQ almost point and shoot.
 
Was at a camera fair last Sunday and there was a lot of Bronica's and lenses for them, also one stand had a Mamiya RB67 including lens and film back for £199. Only a couple of lenses for the RB67 though.

Trevor
 
isnt there some russian ones, like kiev 60, and pentacon 60? or six
and theres a russian tlr which goes for £30ish
 
pingu666 said:
isnt there some russian ones, like kiev 60, and pentacon 60? or six
and theres a russian tlr which goes for £30ish
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Many of these Soviet cameras are notoriously unreliable though (e.g., overlapping frames, etc.), although some are capable of very good results when they work (the Pentacon has Zeiss Jena lenses, I believe).

I myself do have one of the Soviet TLRs (Lubitel 166u), which was given to me, but it's nowhere near the quality of the Yashica, Minolta, or Mamiya TLRs. Light leaks, vignetting, slow lenses, and terrible focusing screens are just a few of the problems that plague the Lubitels. I couldn't really recommend one unless you were into very experimental photography and wanted to achieve the instagram look by purely analogue means.
 
I had a Kiev 60 which was ok but the slow shutter speeds were so eratic.

I would have to agree no CCCP cameras
 
Great suggestions already.
If you can find/afford one an SLR with waistlevel finder, get a 6x6 so you don't have to flip it 90 degrees for vertical shots. So for example a Hasselblad or a Bronica SQ. The Mamiya RB6x7 and RZ6x7 however have tipping film backs to save you flipping the whole camera.

The next is a TLR like the C220 which I used to use professionally and liked. The fun there is looking out for and collecting more lenses. I still have a fixed lens Yashicamat TLR. It is much smaller than the Mamiya and has a built in light meter. I also have add-on lenses that fit in the filter bayonet. And a bayonet metal hood. Similarly the Rolleiflex.

There are also folding cameras with a viewfinder. Some ancient and cheap. And some, like the Fuji, more modern. These can be amazingly small. Ideal as a carry anywhere camera when you don't want to lug your big gear around.

There is a lot of fun to be had collecting cheap 2nd hand cameras and accessories. A prism or metering prism is nice. But for the cost, and weight it has little benefit for landcapes.
 
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Thanks again for all the replies :)

It seems that the RB67 is one of the best for my needs, but it's outside of my current budget at the moment (unless I get lucky like trevormc and find one for less!). It's definitely one to consider in a year or two if I'm still getting on well with film and can justify spending a little more :D

I had a look into the Yashica, but from reading comments all over the web people seem to think that it's not as well built or solid as the Mamiya C220, so I think I'd prefer the Mamiya over the Yashica as both are within my budget.

Cuchulainn said:
He's been very restrained in not pointing it out, but if you're looking for something portable for landscape work, then Mr. Bump's Fuji in the classifieds is worth considering.
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Mr Bump said:
@Cuchulainn I had kind of forgotten about that but yes it is epically good for that. But the OP wants the WLF so its maybe not for him.

On the plus side epically simple camera to use basically almost an MF digital with the light metre and ease of use.
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I haven't been a member of the forum for long enough so I'm not able to go into the classified section yet :(

Other than eBay, does anyone know of a good place to look for old film cameras? I've looked through several websites (Vintage Classic Cameras, London Camera Exchange, Rocky Cameras, TLR-Cameas, FFordes, Whistable Photo Prints, Film Camera Store etc) but haven't had much luch finding anything to be honest! The prices on eBay seem to vary wildly for reasons unknown to me (for instance, the C220 ranges from £149 to £249), and I'm a little hesitant about purchasing a cheaper one without knowing why it's cheaper!

Cheers,

Carl
 
Yes, the Yashicamat is not as solidly built as a Mamiya. But the 124G series is still very reliable. It's based on a long series of predecessors. Mine has never let me down. They are still worth getting as the price should be good. The new price was 74 pounds when I bought mine in 1982!
 
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skysh4rk said:
Although I'd very much like an RB67 myself and think they're very good cameras, I can also think of a number of reasons not to suggest an RB67.

I say this not to be antagonistic in any way, but just to highlight that these various MF cameras have different strengths/weaknesses that must be weighed up by the end user with regard to his/her own needs. Consequently, I'd be hesitant to suggest with any certainty that any camera is necessarily better than another for someone else.
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It's hard to disagree with your assessment, there are of course arguments for and against any system.
 
I recently bought a Mamiya M645J (6x4.5) from Ffordes and was surprised at how small it is, although it's heavier than it looks due to the all metal body. I've always wanted to try one of the older mamiya 645's having only used the newer plastic 645 Pro before and I'm really impressed with its' handling. I've got a roll of Portra 400 in it at moment so need to get out and shoot that to see the results :0)

A few weeks ago I was also looking at a tatty Bronica S2 (6x6) as I've always liked their styling but my head ruled my heart and I went for the Mamiya instead. However, I was offered a much better condition S2 last night which I've bought as well so I can do a side by side comparison. However, I won't be able to keep both so I'll be listing one of them here over the next few weeks. They're both excellent systems, the major difference being the format (6x6 vs 6x4.5) and the removeable backs on the S2 allowing for mid-roll film swaps.

I've shot a selection of MF kit over the last 18 months including 3 TLRs (YashicaMAT and 2 YashicaMAT 124Gs) and all 3 of them felt solid and reliable to me as well as delivering excellent results whilst being considerably lighter than other MF kit.

Cheers
Steve
 
Carl Hall said:
Thanks again for all the replies :)

It seems that the RB67 is one of the best for my needs, but it's outside of my current budget at the moment (unless I get lucky like trevormc and find one for less!). It's definitely one to consider in a year or two if I'm still getting on well with film and can justify spending a little more :D

I had a look into the Yashica, but from reading comments all over the web people seem to think that it's not as well built or solid as the Mamiya C220, so I think I'd prefer the Mamiya over the Yashica as both are within my budget.






I haven't been a member of the forum for long enough so I'm not able to go into the classified section yet :(

Other than eBay, does anyone know of a good place to look for old film cameras? I've looked through several websites (Vintage Classic Cameras, London Camera Exchange, Rocky Cameras, TLR-Cameas, FFordes, Whistable Photo Prints, Film Camera Store etc) but haven't had much luch finding anything to be honest! The prices on eBay seem to vary wildly for reasons unknown to me (for instance, the C220 ranges from £149 to £249), and I'm a little hesitant about purchasing a cheaper one without knowing why it's cheaper!

Cheers,

Carl
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I've found eBay okay if you are careful, if someone describes something as working and its not you go to paypal and get your money back. You'll have to pay return post but that's fairly normal. There is currently a RB67 going for £120 but its not got a lens so you'd need to keep an eye out for one there aren't any cheap ones listed at the moment.

Prices are just what people think the stuff is worth, some people vastly overestimate the value there are also some dealers who are trying to run a business. Best thing I found was to set up an alert for newly listed BiN and if its cheap get it, I generally cba to watch for auctions finishing.
 
Peter Loy have a C330S and an F both with 80mm lens for £249, a bit above budget but they look in good condition.
Ffordes have a body only C220 for £99.
On the bay I'd say this was about the right price
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mamiya-C2...ilm_Cameras&hash=item20dfd77bbd#ht_5530wt_721

But there are bargains to be had. The older C33 was a professional camera and is still very capable and significantly cheaper than the later 3 digit jobs.

Good luck.

Andy
 
My first Medium Format camera was a Yashica Mat. No meter, not a problem. There are loads of Apps for that. It's still my favourite. Simple and reliable. Terrific image quality.
Very good way into Medium Format without blowing all your dough.
Think I paid around £57. eBay purchase.
 
Carl Hall said:
The prices on eBay seem to vary wildly for reasons unknown to me (for instance, the C220 ranges from £149 to £249), and I'm a little hesitant about purchasing a cheaper one without knowing why it's cheaper!
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Unlike nowadays where a camera may have a lifespan of a few years, in the film days these cameras would be made for decades. With the Mamiyas, for instance, versions of the C220 were made between 1968 and 1995 and the C330 from 1969 to 1994 (see here for model dates: http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Mamiya_C_series). Consequently, some cameras will be much newer than others. Moreover, some of these cameras will have seen hard lives as the workhouses of professional photographers, whereas others will have sat in closets unused for years. The combination of these factors will affect the prices of these cameras on the used market.

It doesn't stop there though, as there are also several versions of many of the lenses too, which were improved over time. The 'Blue Dot' lenses, I believe, are meant to the be the newest and best for the Mamiya TLR lineups, but I'm sure that the older lenses still perform very well, although they might be a bit more susceptible to flare.
 
Hi Carl,

If landscape is your starting criteria then 645 is the way to go,your budget suits it well and the Bronica ETRS/I to start is available within budget with normally the 75mm lens (about 50mm real time),but,if you are a little patient you may find one with a 50mm or even 40mm lens,much better for landscape.

The thing about the Bronica 645 system is that there are always items available,even on TP and you can pick up some real bargains,I acquired a 40mm for less than £60.00. Extra back can be had for under £20.00 sometimes.

All in all a wonderful starting kit which can be added to along the way, I love 6x6, but, not for landscape,to much cropping and sometimes excuses.

Good luck and I hope your enjoy your new venture, we all did.(y)
 
I did find a Mamiya C220 very heavy compared with a YashMat or Rolleiflex (the latter being out of your price range). Folding down the WLF is also a bit fiddly; they didn't quite get that bit of engineering right the way some other TLRs did. C220 results look very good, so also do YashMat results; you can also find Minolta Autocords that are excellent. I think the C200 I looked at had a very bright screen, which is important.

The main thing is to buy one and get stuck in. You may be frustrated by the WLF at first; it's harder than you'd expect to get the framing right when the image is reversed.

I'd suggest finding a shop with something that you can visit and ahve a good look at and feel. Or go along to the Film Meet in York on Saturday, even if you don't have film camera yet, someone would likely let you use one of theirs for a while. (Sadly I won't be there, so I'm making suggestions on behalf of others, but I'm probably right, specially if you buy them a pint!)
 
A very fine suggestion Chris but I think Somerset to York might be a bit of a stretch....:D
 
The Bronica ETRSi is an excellent choice. 15 exposures at 5 x 4.5mm, I think they used to make a 35mm back for it as well. There are some real bargains on Ebay, here's one.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bronica-E...426411?pt=UK_Film_Cameras&hash=item3cdc526a2b

The AEII prism finder is really good, it has a very good meter which was years ahead of it's time 30 years ago. I can really vouch for this system. I have one in mint condition but would never part with it.
 
Hi

I have read the very good advice given above and myself use a Bronica SQA. I also use a Franka Solida 11 with a 80mm Xenar lens, it is a 6x 6, its light and slips into my pocket it can be bought off E Bay fairly cheap, you will have to use a light meter, some of these cameras have range finders or can they can be purchased from E Bay. As with all folders of this age one must choose carefully. It might be worth trying one out to see how you get on with a square format. There is a lot of info on the Frankas on the net and think they are great fun touse and very underated. Hope this has been of some help.:)
 
I'm glad this thread is here, otherwise I would have had to start it. I took two cameras out today - a D90 and a battered old Yashica-mat. Obviously I loved the instant gratification of the digi camera, but I'm more convinced than ever that the most enjoyment I'm going to get from taking photos is going to involve a waist-level finder. It's a thousand times better for me than holding a viewfinder up to my eye and squinting through it, no matter how good and bright it is. There's just something engaging about that big WLF image, without even getting into how much more relaxed I am taking the photo.

So, I've been researching other MF cameras that have WLFs. I really thought I'd found my match with the RB67, until I found out just how much they weigh. I'm leaning towards one of the 645s now.
 
I'm just getting used to a Bronica GS-1 and the WLF on this is bl**dy lovely, big and bright and a joy to use. With the WLF, 100mm lens and a back they weigh 1.97Kg which if I'm correct is a lot less than the RB67. Problem is they are quite rare and can be expensive.
I totally agree with you about WLF, they make photography better for me.

Andy
 
Morning all,

I read through all of the replies carefully and weighed up all the different cameras available to me. I ended up buying this C220 off of ebay yesterday afternoon for £149. It looks to be in good condition, although there are no images of the bellows extended. It was advertised as next day delivery so I was hoping to receive it today and give it a go at the weekend, but I've had no notification of shipping so I guess I'll have to wait until Monday!

Also bought some Ilford FP4 Plus film to go with it.

I'll be sure to post some photos of it when it arrives :D

Carl.
 
Excellent news Carl, I'm sure you'll love it, a cracking camera.

Andy
 
Congratulations on your new camera - have fun.
 
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