Ben Flower

Gary Coyle said:
You seriously need to take to the field Ruth

You also need to distinguish between everyday life and the game, men have been crippled for life and men have lost their lives while playing the game, its a tough game and despite its barbarity its still played.
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Ohhhh ok.
I didn't realise!
That's OK then! :rolleyes:
 
viv1969 said:
Ohhhh ok.
I didn't realise!
That's OK then! :rolleyes:
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Once again.....no-one is saying it's OK. It's something that happens when you play the game, the sport's disciplinary process will deal with it.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about, calling for criminal proceedings. Go play a season or two and let us know if you still feel the same way.
 
mid_gen said:
Once again.....no-one is saying it's OK. It's something that happens when you play the game, the sport's disciplinary process will deal with it.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about, calling for criminal proceedings. Go play a season or two and let us know if you still feel the same way.
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this is going to be one of those circular arguments - those of us who play or have played contact sports know that things like this happen ... doesnt make it right, or acceptable, but it doesnt make it a criminal assault either in my/our view .... those with no personal experience may feel otherwise, and neither group will ever convince the other.

In the interests of moving out yes it was / no it wasnt territory

what are the thoughts of those with legal knowledge or experience on the point of whether criminal proceedings are even possible given that lance doesnt want to press charges ?
 
Gary Coyle said:
I see what youre doing Ruth, go on then, you can have the last word if it makes you feel better.
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Look, all I'm saying is that yes, I understand that the initial arm in the throat was completely out of order and the resulting "smack" can indeed be seen as part of what is a harsh game.
But I truly believe that once a man is on the ground, then standing over him and delivering a punch to the head isn't acceptable or part of the game.
I'm sorry if this offends you.
 
viv1969 said:
Look, all I'm saying is that yes, I understand that the initial arm in the throat was completely out of order and the resulting "smack" can indeed be seen as part of what is a harsh game.
But I truly believe that once a man is on the ground, then standing over him and delivering a punch to the head isn't acceptable or part of the game.
I'm sorry if this offends you.
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Youre arguing with yourself here Ruth because no one has said it is an acceptable or part of the game :thinking:
 
Gary Coyle said:
Youre arguing with yourself here Ruth because no one has said it is an acceptable or part of the game :thinking:
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[/QUOTE]

That's just not true.

mid_gen said:
Once again.....no-one is saying it's OK. It's something that happens when you play the game, the sport's disciplinary process will deal with it.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about, calling for criminal proceedings. Go play a season or two and let us know if you still feel the same way.
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Inane comments like that prove it.
 
FFS, Just who has actually said its acceptable, I give in, my life is over and i hope i die a painfully slow death, anything is better than the torture Ruth is putting me through

Mods, please ban me so i cant access the forums until this crap drops off the page.
 
so to recap there are two schools of thought here

1) thinks that what flowers did was unacceptable, but that due to the context - ie on a rugby feild, whilst playing a contact sport, after getting an arm in the throat - it ought to be dealt with by the RFL (as indeed it has been)

2) thinks that what flowers did was assault and shouild be dealt with by criminal proceedings

neither side thinks that what happened was acceptable.

Having established that perhaps we could all have a group hug and move on to other things such as

Q: could criminal carges be brought in ay case where the 'victim' says that he understands the acts and therefore presumably doesnt want to press charges ? Discuss ?
 
Gary Coyle said:
FFS, Just who has actually said its acceptable, I give in, my life is over and i hope i die a painfully slow death, anything is better than the torture Ruth is putting me through

Mods, please ban me so i cant access the forums until this crap drops off the page.
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Oh please. How about getting a grip?
 
big soft moose said:
Q: could criminal carges be brought in ay case where the 'victim' says that he understands the acts and therefore presumably doesnt want to press charges ? Discuss ?
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Yes they could.

Talking in general here and not just relevant to this situation:

Whilst any victim can give their preference, it does not override any other authority.

In a lot of cases a victims unwillingness can hamper an investigation due to it reducing the evidence available (i.e no witness statement).

However, in instances like this evidence is plentiful.

It may also be seen not to be in the public interest to charge or prosecute an individual.
 
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viv1969 said:
Oh please. How about getting a grip?
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If you need to take your frustration out on someone Ruth, create a club and set your own rules that allow you to commit assault without fear of prosecution.

Then you can punish yourself with a fine equivalent to 1% of your monthly salary. Justice served.

Better than a stress ball.

Lol.
 
big soft moose said:
so to recap there are two schools of thought here

1) thinks that what flowers did was unacceptable, but that due to the context - ie on a rugby feild, whilst playing a contact sport, after getting an arm in the throat - it ought to be dealt with by the RFL (as indeed it has been)

2) thinks that what flowers did was assault and shouild be dealt with by criminal proceedings

neither side thinks that what happened was acceptable.

Having established that perhaps we could all have a group hug and move on to other things such as

Q: could criminal carges be brought in ay case where the 'victim' says that he understands the acts and therefore presumably doesnt want to press charges ? Discuss ?
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There was a copper who played Union about 10 year ago who was prosecuted for something similar, it was thrown out of court, but he lost his job through it, wasnt there an English International RU player a few years ago as well who tried to get a case against some massive Argentinian 18 year old who decked him on the field
 
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Gary Coyle said:
Mods, please ban me so i cant access the forums until this crap drops off the page.
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No problem :thumbs:
*waves wand* (Just kidding :D )

Guy's some of this is getting a bit personal, again.
Please attack the post not the poster.
Thanks :thumbs:
 
Gary Coyle said:
Not long enough, 4 month of that is the closed season so has no affect on him, any ban should start from the date of his first competitive game.
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I agree , it should be 6 months worth of playing season , or be termed in the number of games to be missed rather than calendar months. do we think the relatively light ban might be because of the provocation with lance also beingcharged with a Cat B offence ?
 
I'm off to Ladbrokes.

What odds will I get on someone giving him the high elbow in his first game back?
 
To be honest i'd be amazed if either of them hold a grudge , I bet lance has been punched in the head before , and will be again - he's probably given it out himself once or twice as well

as i said earlier I used to play BC rugby in my younger days and by about halfway through the season i'd have needed a personal organiser to keep track of who had kicked/raked/stamped on/hit/ yanked who's testicles in the scrum etc... but lifes too short for all that crap ... you get punched in the head , hey s*** happens , so long as theres no permanent damage, you pick yourself up and get on with winning the game or the next one, you don't tit about holding grudges like a little girl in the play ground
 
Yes, have to agree. It's part of the nature of sport. "War by other means." (Orwell)

As a kid I was good at - quite good at - ok at - football.

Once playing competitively, we were taught early on to identify your marker and hammer him in the first 5 minutes.

Flower will get hammered on his return to test his reaction.

I agree that second punch deserves more of a ban though.
 
Not to worry, we have Gareth Hock coming back to play for us next season. It won't be long before the Ben Flower incident is forgotten!!!
 
Ans: only if the other player wants to press charges. It's that simple IMO. He will be punished in other ways I'm sure.

One of our Irish players was punched 11 times in the face playing for the British and Irish lions, and there was nothing made of it. Duncan McRae received a 7 week ban, but as it was off season in Australia, he missed no matches!
 
big soft moose said:
so to recap there are two schools of thought here

1) thinks that what flowers did was unacceptable, but that due to the context - ie on a rugby feild, whilst playing a contact sport, after getting an arm in the throat - it ought to be dealt with by the RFL (as indeed it has been)

2) thinks that what flowers did was assault and shouild be dealt with by criminal proceedings

neither side thinks that what happened was acceptable.

Having established that perhaps we could all have a group hug and move on to other things such as

Q: could criminal carges be brought in ay case where the 'victim' says that he understands the acts and therefore presumably doesnt want to press charges ? Discuss ?
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I'm with option 3, which could be option 1 or 2, but is essentially he should be dealt with the same way he would had it occurred outside of the game. That might mean a prosecution, and might not. For me, the match is irrelevant.

Just because things have occurred in the past does not mean they should in the future. Sometimes incidents like this become the catalyst for change.

You don't need to have played the game to believe the above. I appreciate why some people don't agree with my view, and I know people who to be frank enjoy the more violent side of things on the pitch.

For me if he would be prosecuted for this when out with the same provocation, I don't see why he would not here. By the same token if he would not if the same scenario outside then he should not now. As I said, the game is irrelevant from my point of view.

Anyway as you say it looks like people have polar opposite views with no room for compromise. Maybe we should form two RL teams and formed of those with opposing views - just off to get my studs sharpened.....:)
 
And, 1 match ban for Lance Hohaia for the forearm that sparked the whole thing. He submitted an early guilty plea to get the smallest sanction possible which he is allowed to do due to his previous record.

Whilst no one has suggested that Ben Flowers reaction (especially the punch on the ground) was acceptable, some could argue that the one who retaliated has been punished far more than the one who instigated the incident, punished the 'effect' far more than the 'cause'.
Not saying that Flowers should have got a lesser ban but maybe Hohaia deserved a harsher one too.
 
PaulF said:
And, 1 match ban for Lance Hohaia for the forearm that sparked the whole thing. He submitted an early guilty plea to get the smallest sanction possible which he is allowed to do due to his previous record.

Whilst no one has suggested that Ben Flowers reaction (especially the punch on the ground) was acceptable, some could argue that the one who retaliated has been punished far more than the one who instigated the incident, punished the 'effect' far more than the 'cause'.
Not saying that Flowers should have got a lesser ban but maybe Hohaia deserved a harsher one too.
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Hohaia's dig was a retaliation in itself because Flower got one in before that. Hohaia got the appropriate punishment for his offence. Flower's punishment was more based on the punch whilst Hohaia was already flat out more than the initial one that put him there. It's all a classic case of big man showing little man who's boss, little man showing he won't be intimidated, big man reacting as if his sexuality and parentage have both been questioned
 
What a great thread. I have really enjoyed reading this. But we all (some of us anyway) know that next season, all rugby league players will run on to the pitch to hurt the opponents as much as they can within the rules of the game. Some will over react, some will get digs in on the sly. Every player will take home cuts and bruises, even the occasional stich will be required. But they will shake hands at the end of the game. Get themselves patched up and look forward to the next match. They will bring us entertainment of the highest order and we can only thank them for that. It is unfortunate what happened, but some of the inane drivel on this thread is a little bit laughable. Just look forward to next season, and more of the same. Let's get it on.
 
I can remember playing RL at school, and going into the scrum with a loose arm, so I could plant one on the opposition's prop. I don't condone the punch, but the game has always been physical, both within & outside the laws of the game, and that's in part why we enjoy to play and watch it.......
 
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