Ben Flower

To do it is wrong, to do it so early in the game is stupid. Should he be arrested . difficult one. ABH? GBH? Does that apply on a sports pitch when emotions are running high. Not a follower of league, however I hope the authorities have the power to fine him enough to make it really hurt him and to give him a significant ban. I.e. 1 year minimum.

Playing union at Uni (oh several years ago) yeah of course fisticuffs when the ref wasn't looking - this was nottinghamshire during the times when colleries were being closed down, and if the hooker is stupid enough to give a line out call of "redundant miner 53" you know he is going to get a "heavy tackle."

What happened on that pitch today was disgraceful.
 
big soft moose said:
If you did it on the street to someone who'd been physically manhanling you for 90 minuites and repeatedly tackling you to the ground, you'd probably call it self defence
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It was 3 minutes into the game not 90.

It's not self defence if you punch someone whilst on the ground unconscious - they clearly pose no danger to you when they are KO'd.

big soft moose said:
the parellel is inane , because what on the street is not comparable to what happens on a sport feild, and various actions are allowed (within the rules of a full on contact sport) on a sports feild which wouldnt be in the street.
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You cannot punch people in the face when playing rugby. That's not part of the sport and very different to the tackles and other permissible contact acts.

big soft moose said:
Thus when someone goes beyond those rules their conduct should be judged by the standard of those rules, not the standard that applies on the street.
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So the standards of rugby make punching someone in the face acceptable?

This is nonsense - intentionally and maliciously punching someone in the face is unlawful on and off of the rugby field.
 
fabs said:
It's called context.
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Pure nonsense.

If the victim had died from the same two punches would your opinion be different?

If you say yes, you are being hypocritical based on your original argument.

If you say no, then you are being ignorant.
 
ACW said:
Pure nonsense.

If the victim had died from the same two punches would your opinion be different?

If you say yes, you are being hypocritical based on your original argument.

If you say no, then you are being ignorant.
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What a pointless comparison. All some of us have tried to say is that we don't think anything would be gained by bringing the police in. Nobody's condoned what happened or said that it was acceptable. It the victim had died, of course the police would have to be brought in. That's just common sense, not hypocrisy. But nobody has died and the victim bears no grudge and would obviously not press charges so what would be the point of bringing the police in?
 
simonblue said:
In a way yes you do,by saying the Club & League should sort it out,the very people who would like it to go away as quickly as possible :confused:
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The RFL will hopefully take a very dim view and act accordingly, it would not be in their best interests to do otherwise so no, no-one is condoning it.
 
fabs said:
The RFL will hopefully take a very dim view and act accordingly, it would not be in their best interests to do otherwise so no, no-one is condoning it.
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Hopefully,but i was never to happy about any organisation policing itself :(
 
fabs said:
It's not policing itself, it will be disciplining a player, something that happens all the time in sport.
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So a slap on the wrist.
Don't do it again.
Here's a fine.......what do you mean you don't know what milk and bread cost?
 
fabs said:
Hopefully a large fine and a lengthy ban. Would you like him to go to prison? What would that achieve?
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Prison? No, Christ knows it's hard enough to get a non-sportsperson in there.
But facing charges in the world we mere mortals live in? Yes. Absolutely.
Punching someone's lights out has no place in a sporting game of any description, for any reason..... and I don't care how big a fan you are of said sport.
 
Bernie174 said:
So, if I had thumped someone at a demo, that would be acceptable would it?
Same thing, heat of the moment, adrenalin flowing, it's a tough place?
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Unless the primary purpose of the demo was to pick a ball up and forcibly barge through the opposition then it's hardly a good comparison. Thought only peaceful demonstrations were legal :-?
 
The referee dealt with it by sending him off, it is most likely he will end up fined and banned for a few weeks.
 
viv1969 said:
Prison? No, Christ knows it's hard enough to get a non-sportsperson in there.
But facing charges in the world we mere mortals live in? Yes. Absolutely.
Punching someone's lights out has no place in a sporting game of any description, for any reason..... and I don't care how big a fan you are of said sport.
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I agree, which is why I think he should face the most severe punishment available handed down by the sport's governing body.
 
fabs said:
Hopefully a large fine and a lengthy ban. Would you like him to go to prison? What would that achieve?
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I have watch the video a couple of times,that behaviour is totally unacceptable he should face charges and go to court no if no buts :(
 
I really hope we land and open Mars up soon, then we can leave earth to all you soppy ****.

What a load of b*****ks you lot are trawling on here, every outspoken critic has never ,probably ,played RL or any other contact sport. Yet you offer your opinions on something you know nothing about, nor ever will, outstanding. But that is TP for you.
 
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fabs said:
I agree, which is why I think he should face the most severe punishment available handed down by the sport's governing body.
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If I ever have cause to punch someone's lights out, i'll call upon the sport's governing body, shall I?
 
fracster said:
I really hope we land and open Mars up soon, then we can leave earth to all you soppy ****.

What a load of b*****ks you lot are trawling on here, every outspoken critic has never ,probably ,played RL or any other contact sport. Yet you offer your opinions on something you know nothing about, nor ever will, outstanding. But that is TP for you.
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Playing the sport's got nothing to do with it.

You kiss your mother with that mouth? She must be so proud.
 
fabs said:
I agree, which is why I think he should face the most severe punishment available handed down by the sport's governing body.
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Say they said Life ?
fracster said:
I really hope we land and open Mars up soon, then we can leave earth to all you soppy ****.

What a load of b*****ks you lot are trawling on here, every outspoken critic has never ,probably ,played RL or any other contact sport. Yet you offer your opinions on something you know nothing about, nor ever will, outstanding. But that is TP for you.
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I have played a lot of contact sports,and been knocked out a couple of time just by accident,that wasn't an accident that was assualt :(
 
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Well well well, can worms open.

I am a big fan of rugby and used to play at school and it is a rough game, tempers flare and sometimes fists fly it happens but this was different. I was totally shocked by the incident , I cant say I have seen anything quite like it before. The punch on the floor in my opinion was criminal, whether or not the police should be involved is another matter but it was a criminal act and totally unacceptable. Someone posted earlier that he was no threat to the public, with a temper like that I wouldn't be too sure.
 
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jakeblu said:
Well well well, can worms open.

I am a big fan of rugby and used to play at school and it is a rough game, tempers flare and sometimes fists fly it happens but this was different. I was totally shocked by the incident , I cant say I have seen anything quite like it before. The punch on the floor in my opinion was criminal, whether or not the police should be involved is another matter but it was a criminal act and totally unacceptable. Someone posted earlier that he was no threat to the public, to be honest, with a temper like that I wouldn't be too sure.
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It was me who said that and I don't believe he would be. As already said, the circumstances of a game like that would be very hard to replicate outside of it.
 
Flower should be penalised for what he did, however I don't think it should be a legal matter. Rugby is a contact sports and tempers naturally run high, especially when these 2 teams meet. It's a fewd that's been running since before I first saw them play 25 years ago. If you watch the incident Lance went in on Flower first with a high challenge considerably after the ball had been played the ball, Flower retaliated with his head full of mist, I wonder if he was even aware Lance unconscious.

I am not a fan of either team but I enjoy the sport. Again Ben Flower should be punished for the retaliation in my opinion a 1 year ban and a huge fine. We shall see what happens. If we start investigating all these incidents then what about the stamping that goes in and around the Ruck in Rugby Union. is this not also assault?
 
fabs said:
It was me who said that and I don't believe he would be. As already said, the circumstances of a game like that would be very hard to replicate outside of it.
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I'm not so sure. Friday night out, few drinks, bit of aggro with others, what's to say it would not happen then?

Personally I think he should face whatever sanction he would face outside of the sport normally. The fact it's a contact sport is irrelevant. I've played Rugby (Union) and Football, done Martial arts, had my arm broken twice doing those and various other injuries, but I accepted those as part of the contact. I would not accept doing any of those being knocked out cold and then being punched, and if it had happened to me I'd have prosecuted if I could.

It's unacceptable and having people like that try to effectively injure people out of a game, or intimate them through violence that is not, or should not, be part of the sport.

We had a team in the league I played in previously (football) that were rough as hell. The games were not enjoyable as you knew they were literally out to hurt you as opposed to play - I can take hard tackles but intentionally going to injure people no. Eventually they were kicked out of the league after one of their players broke an opponents jaw - this was low level Sunday league stuff and I wished he'd have been charged in that case.
 
akr said:
I'm not so sure. Friday night out, few drinks, bit of aggro with others, what's to say it would not happen then?
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That would be assuming he'd have the same mindset off the field as he would on it and that's not necessarily the case

akr said:
Personally I think he should face whatever sanction he would face outside of the sport normally. The fact it's a contact sport is irrelevant. I've played Rugby (Union) and Football, done Martial arts, had my arm broken twice doing those and various other injuries, but I accepted those as part of the contact. I would not accept doing any of those being knocked out cold and then being punched, and if it had happened to me I'd have prosecuted if I could.
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And there's the rub, Lance Hohaia won't.


akr said:
It's unacceptable and having people like that try to effectively injure people out of a game, or intimate them through violence that is not, or should not, be part of the sport.

We had a team in the league I played in previously (football) that were rough as hell. The games were not enjoyable as you knew they were literally out to hurt you as opposed to play - I can take hard tackles but intentionally going to injure people no. Eventually they were kicked out of the league after one of their players broke an opponents jaw - this was low level Sunday league stuff and I wished he'd have been charged in that case.
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Of course it's unacceptable and that's why I hope he gets a lengthy ban. If he gets a life ban (although I don't expect him to), I certainly won't shed a tear for him.
 
fabs said:
That would be assuming he'd have the same mindset off the field as he would on it and that's not necessarily the case
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I agree, though are you assuming the opposite. I don't know certainly, but I'd not edge more on the side of it being possible after seeing that.

fabs said:
And there's the rub, Lance Hohaia won't.
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True. Though of course there are some crimes where the victim does not need to be part of the prosecution. Whilst I would not compare this to some others, I would imagine there would be a certain amount of negativity at present towards a player wanting to prosecute something like this. As per many views on this thread along the lines of 'it's a contact sport' I presume (assumption again) that the view would mainly to just get on with it. I don't agree with that, but expect that is the practical situation.


fabs said:
Of course it's unacceptable and that's why I hope he gets a lengthy ban. If he gets a life ban (although I don't expect him to), I certainly won't shed a tear for him.
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To be fair I think everyone agrees on that and I was not suggesting otherwise.
 
akr said:
True. Though of course there are some crimes where the victim does not need to be part of the prosecution. Whilst I would not compare this to some others, I would imagine there would be a certain amount of negativity at present towards a player wanting to prosecute something like this. As per many views on this thread along the lines of 'it's a contact sport' I presume (assumption again) that the view would mainly to just get on with it. I don't agree with that, but expect that is the practical situation.
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"Conduct causing or likely to cause, harassment alarm or distress, to one or more people not of the same houshold." Whilst thats the term for an ASBO, I think there is something similar in criminal law too. Thats how John Terry was charged, complaints from the crowd, for allegedly racially abusing Anton Ferdinand.
 
None of it would have happened if Hohaia hadn't smashed his forearm into Flowers prompting the retaliation. Certainly over the top in slow motion, but to continue the analogy of 'if this had happened outside of a rugby game', don't think too much sympathy would be given if someone had elbowed / forearmed somebody else in the face and their response was a swift two punches.
 
Rapscallion said:
None of it would have happened if Hohaia hadn't smashed his forearm into Flowers prompting the retaliation. Certainly over the top in slow motion, but to continue the analogy of 'if this had happened outside of a rugby game', don't think too much sympathy would be given if someone had elbowed / forearmed somebody else in the face and their response was a swift two punches.
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Totally agree with this. I have played rugby for years at amateur and semi professional level and and at all levels I've played, If you hit/tackle/smash a player off the ball then you better keep your guard up afterwards. The 2nd punch while he was on the floor though I do believe was OTT.

I'm not saying it's acceptable but it's what happens.
 
Rapscallion said:
None of it would have happened if Hohaia hadn't smashed his forearm into Flowers prompting the retaliation. Certainly over the top in slow motion, but to continue the analogy of 'if this had happened outside of a rugby game', don't think too much sympathy would be given if someone had elbowed / forearmed somebody else in the face and their response was a swift two punches.
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KryptoNeo said:
Totally agree with this. I have played rugby for years at amateur and semi professional level and and at all levels I've played, If you hit/tackle/smash a player off the ball then you better keep your guard up afterwards. The 2nd punch while he was on the floor though I do believe was OTT.

I'm not saying it's acceptable but it's what happens.
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From what I've heard, Flower got a dig in before that and that's why Hohaia went in like he did. It's not unusual for smaller half-backs to do that, especially early in the game, to let the prop know that they're not scared of them. Flower's reaction was grossly OTT.

Have just heard that the Wigan chairman has said that they will not be taking any action against Flower which I find extremely disappointing, sends out completely the wrong message.
 
thought this was gonna be a funny about bill and ben the flowerpot men ,bill said to ben gggggglluuugggdddddooooffffrrrddd ben said yes but only if you swallow :exit::exit:
 
Christ sake its a contact sport played by men against me, i suffered s*** like this every week i took to the field, no one seems to mention the cheap shot Hohiah made on Flowers throat/head

It shouldnt happen but does, there isnt anyone who plays the game hasnt been involved in throwing punches and most have taken sneaky cheap shots as well

Nothing makes it right, nothing, but it happens every single day on every single rugby pitch at every single age level, if you dont want to put yourself in that position, dont play the game.

8 match ban, end of.

Hohiah came off lightly for his foream/elbow attack to Flowers head/neck and if Flowers wouldnt have reacted Hohiah would have been sent off himself
 
Gary Coyle said:
Christ sake its a contact sport played by men against me, i suffered s*** like this every week i took to the field, no one seems to mention the cheap shot Hohiah made on Flowers throat/head

It shouldnt happen but does, there isnt anyone who plays the game hasnt been involved in throwing punches and most have taken sneaky cheap shots as well

Nothing makes it right, nothing, but it happens every single day on every single rugby pitch at every single age level, if you dont want to put yourself in that position, dont play the game.

8 match ban, end of.

Hohiah came off lightly for his foream/elbow attack to Flowers head/neck and if Flowers wouldnt have reacted Hohiah would have been sent off himself
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Common sense at last in this thread.
 
Gary Coyle said:
It shouldnt happen but does, there isnt anyone who plays the game hasnt been involved in throwing punches and most have taken sneaky cheap shots as well
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Speak for yourself, I have honestly never thrown a punch on a rugby pitch............. oh hang on though I played Union. Are the rules that different?
 
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Rugby may well be a contact sport, but I've had a quick look and thumping people isn't in the rules.

OK, everyone agrees it was unacceptable, what remains is how it is dealt with.

A disciplinary hearing isn't going to impose much of a sanction, sports ones never do. Does that matter? Yes, it does simply because it sends the wrong message to others, not just in rugby, but in wider society.

The problem is that UK wide we have a problem with people who think that OTT violence is acceptable, why? Because time and time again they see it happen and very often they see no consequences for that violence.

Like it or not Flowers put himself in the public eye when he signed on the dotted line, and in doing so he should be expected to set an example, part of that is facing up to the consequences of his actions.

A Dsciplinary board is not the answer here, it's a Court hearing that needs to happen. Excuses being made for him are not helping anyone, the contact sport argument is cobblers, contact means just that, it does not mean a thump in the face on another player who does not have the ball, who is on his back, and possibly unconscious.
 
Bernie174 said:
Rugby may well be a contact sport, but I've had a quick look and thumping people isn't in the rules.

OK, everyone agrees it was unacceptable, what remains is how it is dealt with.

A disciplinary hearing isn't going to impose much of a sanction, sports ones never do. Does that matter? Yes, it does simply because it sends the wrong message to others, not just in rugby, but in wider society.

The problem is that UK wide we have a problem with people who think that OTT violence is acceptable, why? Because time and time again they see it happen and very often they see no consequences for that violence.

Like it or not Flowers put himself in the public eye when he signed on the dotted line, and in doing so he should be expected to set an example, part of that is facing up to the consequences of his actions.

A Dsciplinary board is not the answer here, it's a Court hearing that needs to happen. Excuses being made for him are not helping anyone, the contact sport argument is cobblers, contact means just that, it does not mean a thump in the face on another player who does not have the ball, who is on his back, and possibly unconscious.
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I think you may be being prematurely harsh on the governing body, this isn't football. I've always Rugby League to take these things seriously due to the nature of the game. However we'll wait and see, I may be wrong.

Also Lance was hardly the innocent everyone is making him out to be. He went in high and wild with an elbow, and had Flowers not retaliated would probably have found himself in the sin bin for 10.
 
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