Ben Flower

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jakeblu

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Yes

Should he be arrested?
 
He should be arrested, no reason to hit anyone let alone out cold on the ground for round 2!!!
If you can't control your anger in a game you shouldn't play it, yes it can become frustrating but you play harder to win!
 
Yes, absolutely.
It's a contact sport, but that's not a sportsman, that's just a thug.
 
I'm a Saints fan and was watching the game, couldn't believe what I was seeing. I winced at the replay when he punched Lance when he was already out for the count.

Should he be arrested? I don't know. Opens a whole can of worms when it comes to any form of foul play on a sports field. It's a very different set of circumstances to when it happens out in public although it would be interesting to see how things would play if it happened in an amateur game or in the local park.

The question would also have to be, would Lance press charges? I'm guessing he probably wouldn't.

Interestingly, there is also a video doing the rounds (from this year's World Club Challenge I believe) of Shaun Wane (Wigan Coach) firing his players up in the dressing room by telling his players to go out and hurt people.
 
I'm a Wigan supporter and unfortunately didn't see the game but did see the replay earlier. I was only joking in the office a couple of days ago about the fact that there'd be "handbags" early in the first few minutes as emotions always seem to boil over in these games. I didn't realise we quite witness something like this. The guy needs some serious action from both the RFL and the Club. Yes RL is very much a contact sport - but it shouldn't be in this way.
 
@fabs Punching someone like that isn't a different set of circumstances at all.
It's people accepting that idea that's making it more and more acceptable.
 
Wigan have sailed close to the wind all season in my opinion, Macaloron (excuse spelling) cheap shot in the back of the Huddersfield player is a prime example.

Flowers second punch was way over the top and he will be in a world of trouble for it with the RL. Yes, red mist,derby game, cup final can be used as an excuse, but you cannot defend the indefensible.

Should he be arrested, no way, Rugby League is a hard,contact sport. Charges won`t be pressed,I hope, so no need for the law to be involved.

All said as a Leeds fan, no loyalty to Wigan or Saints.
 
He should get fined and suspended by the club and or the RFL but arrest etc are overkill unless his "victim" feels that he wants to press charges (which i somehow doubt) - I'd suspect the police and CPS have better things to do
 
viv1969 said:
@fabs Punching someone like that isn't a different set of circumstances at all.
It's people accepting that idea that's making it more and more acceptable.
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Nonsense Viv.Nobody,not even the most ardent Wigan fan will condone or accept that incident. The RL authorities will deal with it, no need for anybody else to get involved.what is next, banning contact sport in case somebody loses their rag and throws a couple of punches?
 
fracster said:
involved.what is next, banning contact sport in case somebody loses their rag and throws a couple of punches?
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A hell of a lot of ice hockey players would be in custody if we went that route
 
big soft moose said:
A hell of a lot of ice hockey players would be in custody if we went that route
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Indeed, closey followed by Rugby Union.

Tell you what, lets wrap the whole world up in cotton wool and pretend everything is perfect..............:)
 
viv1969 said:
@fabs Punching someone like that isn't a different set of circumstances at all.
It's people accepting that idea that's making it more and more acceptable.
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Sorry Ruth, ut circumstances RE differen. No-one is saying it is more acceptable, just that it should be dealt with within the sport by the governing body of the sport and, hopefully, by the club.
 
What was the back story to this ?... unless he's a total psychopath I very much doubt he just saw someone lying on the ground unconscious and decided to hit them... its not an excuse for what he did but i bet there was a fair bit of agro on both sides preceding it

(if we start applying legal standards to sports pitches all 22 players could probably be done for affray )
 
big soft moose said:
What was the back story to this ?... unless he's a total psychopath I very much doubt he just saw someone lying on the ground unconscious and decided to hit them... its not an excuse for what he did but i bet there was a fair bit of agro on both sides preceding it

(if we start applying legal standards to sports pitches all 22 players could probably be done for affray )
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There was a little bit of needle just beforehand and Hohaia went in quite hard. In the heat of the moment Flower took a swing at Hohaia, pretty much knocking him out. The red mist then descended and Flower went in for afters. Cue te ensuing 26 man brawl!
 
viv1969 said:
@fabs Punching someone like that isn't a different set of circumstances at all.
It's people accepting that idea that's making it more and more acceptable.
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Completely agree.

fabs said:
Sorry Ruth, ut circumstances RE differen. No-one is saying it is more acceptable, just that it should be dealt with within the sport by the governing body of the sport and, hopefully, by the club.
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You are saying they should be beyond criminal sanctions - if I did this to someone in the street I would be arrested and most likely charged with ABH.

But if I did it on a Rugby field I should simply be banned for a few games or fined by the club and walk away without a criminal record or any other form of punishment?
 
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big soft moose said:
What was the back story to this ?... unless he's a total psychopath I very much doubt he just saw someone lying on the ground unconscious and decided to hit them... its not an excuse for what he did but i bet there was a fair bit of agro on both sides preceding it

(if we start applying legal standards to sports pitches all 22 players could probably be done for affray )
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Did you not watch the video?

He is the reason he was lying on the ground unconscious.

He punched him to the floor, and then punched him again.
 
I meant what happened before that - I presume he didnt just punch him for no reason

I'm not saying its acceptable, i'm saying it isnt criminal
 
It didn`t happen on the street, the comparison is, therefore,inane.
 
ACW said:
Completely agree.



You are saying they should be beyond criminal sanctions - if I did this to someone in the street I would be arrested and most likely charged with ABH.

But if I did it on a Rugby field I should simply be banned for a few games or fined by the club and walk away without a criminal record or any other form of punishment?
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It's called context.
 
ACW said:
But if I did it on a Rugby field I should simply be banned for a few games or fined by the club and walk away without a criminal record or any other form of punishment?
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If you did it on the street to someone who'd been physically manhanling you for 90 minuites and repeatedly tackling you to the ground, you'd probably call it self defence

the parellel is inane , because what happens on the street is not comparable to what happens on a sport feild, and various actions are allowed (within the rules of a full on contact sport) on a sports feild which wouldnt be in the street.

Thus when someone goes beyond those rules their conduct should be judged by the standard of those rules, not the standard that applies on the street.
 
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I was at the game back in the 90s when Duncan Ferguson got charged with assault and jailed for 3 months in Barlinnie for headbutting a player when he was playing for Rangers.
 
Hohaia is not that cross about it, but I suppose many others are on his behalf,no change there then.
 
fabs said:
It's called context.
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That's rubbish. "Context" is no excuse whatsoever. My 8 year old Grandson was there with his Father and witnessed this. On the field or off, this is nothing but assault pure and simple.
It doesn't matter that the RL authorities do either, he should be arrested and charged.
 
bindex said:
That's rubbish. "Context" is no excuse whatsoever. My 8 year old Grandson was there with his Father and witnessed this. On the field or off, this is nothing but assault pure and simple.
It doesn't matter that the RL authorities do either, he should be arrested and charged.
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Why? Lance isn't going to press charges, Ben isn't a danger to the public. Getting the police & CPS involved would be a massive waste of resources and would serve no purpose other than satisfy those who want to see him suffer in some way.
 
bindex said:
That's rubbish. "Context" is no excuse whatsoever. My 8 year old Grandson was there with his Father and witnessed this. On the field or off, this is nothing but assault pure and simple.
It doesn't matter that the RL authorities do either, he should be arrested and charged.
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Strange that his "victim" doesnt think so ( and to be honest from a legal standpoint if the victim doesnt want to press charges its not going to go anywhere)

from the link that frac posted

"I don't hold any grudges against Ben," said New Zealander Hohaia, 31.
"In the heat of the moment, people do some things they regret. I've done some silly things on the field myself.
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Also as i said above "re context" - on the street running after someone who's got something you want and taking their feet out in a diving tackle would be against the law too... fact is on the rugby pitch a far greater degree of pysical contact is allowed than is permissible under the standard law... therefore when someone crosses a line they need to be judged by the standards of the game, not by what would be done if it was "in the street"

I used to play Britsih Colleges Rugby (back in the day) and I remember more than one fight on the pitch both giving and recieving .. that kind of thing happens in a high contact high adrenaline environment... in my day someone who acted as Flowers did would probably have been dropped from the team, but no one would have thought about calling the police
 
"It isn't criminal"

Yes, it is. The (and I have no idea or interest in who is who) player on the ground is 'out of play', there is no excuse for what happened next it is assault and that is criminal, end of discussion of what it is.

As for what action should follow? 2 Schools of thought in my mind anyway.

1. It's clearly not an example anyone wants of sportsmanship, or of of being a normal human being's behaviour. So charge him, let a court make an example.
2. It's clearly not an example anyone wants of sportsmanship, or of of being a normal human being's behaviour, but the victim should have some say in how it's dealt with.
 
FFS Bernie, take your ex bobbie hat off just for once.

There would be no contact sport if you and others like you had your way.
 
If assault is always criminal how do we explain boxing matches , or cage fighting ?
 
Ade

There is a wide gap between sport and that.

Contact sport, up to a point, where everyone wants to be playing, comes under the heading of lawful, in that the person being 'contacted' by playing it, in effect consents to contact within the rules of the game. Are you trying to tell me that that thump was within the rules of the game?

It goes way way way beyond that.

BSM,
If assault is always criminal how do we explain boxing matches , or cage fighting
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It comes under the heading of consent.
 
Bernie174 said:
Ade

There is a wide gap between sport and that.

Contact sport, up to a point, where everyone wants to be playing, comes under the heading of lawful, in that the person being 'contacted' by playing it, in effect consents to contact within the rules of the game. Are you trying to tell me that that thump was within the rules of the game?

It goes way way way beyond that.
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No Bernie, I have already said that it is unacceptable, Flower and Wigan have admitted exactly the same, but do we really need the police and the CPS to get involved?

I really don`t believe so. Let the RL deal with it, a criminal prosecution will achieve nothing in my opinion.
 
It sets an example that you cannot expect to evade the consequences of your actions in law by hiding behind a sporting 'disciplinary' body.
But its really a matter between the person who was thumped, the Police and the CPS, and not for anyone on here to decide.
 
I really dont understand some of the opinions in this thread. (they smack of trolling to get a reaction)

OK I'll bite.
a man playing rugby is doing his job therefore he is at work!
if I lost it or got the red mist at work as described and then hit someone I would be arrested for common assault and I would lose my job!
I fail to see the difference and really fail to understand how anyone can condone what happened in that incident.
he assaulted another player not once but twice!

Maybe if he had bitten him you would have different views but they are both assault.
 
AHILL said:
I really dont understand some of the opinions in this thread. (they smack of trolling to get a reaction)

OK I'll bite.
a man playing rugby is doing his job therefore he is at work!
if I lost it or got the red mist at work as described and then hit someone I would be arrested for common assault and I would lose my job!
I fail to see the difference and really fail to understand how anyone can condone what happened in that incident.
he assaulted another player not once but twice!

Maybe if he had bitten him you would have different views but they are both assault.
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I don't see where anyone here has condoned what Flower did.
 
Pretty sure big Dunc got sent down because he had a couple of previous convictions for assault, no idea why it went to court.

I think Flower might have got away with the first punch, the second was shocking.
 
I've not watched live RL for years but I did used to be a season ticket holder at one point.

Looking at the video, it seems the saints stand off went a little high/hard (couldn't really pick it out) on a prop forward in the early minutes of a big game, not that unusual. Most of the best scrum halves/stand off's I've watched were fiery little sods that were happy to go toe to toe with forwards twice their size.

The prop reacted with a punch that floored the stand off (that's not that normal on a rugby field, he appeared to be looking at the prop and would of kind of be expecting a reaction) then followed up with a not too hard punch while the guy was on the ground. By not too hard I mean it was hard enough but by no means the full force he could have used.

The second punch was really not needed and has rightly been condemned by most if not all, if it was just the first punch I doubt he'd have been sent off, a sin bin maybe.

As for those that are calling for the police to be involved, don't be daft. A profession RL match is a tough place and while not totally allowed it's kind of an acceptable risk that the odd fist is thrown about now and then. The adrenalin is flowing and in the heat of the moment these things happen. You'll be asking for Lewis Hamilton to be done for speeding next :)
 
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