BBC defend clarkson

[nilagin]

Just as I find it patronising for you to assume that I don't know about Indian toilet habits, or bothered to read what I said previously.

I wonder if he's fully aware of their toilet habits, it's enough to put you off using public loos for sure.

 

[viv1969]

Bernie, only two people complained about the slope comment prior to the media getting hold of it. The others followed thereafter iirc.

 

[AHILL]

If you can't understand why that is hurtful.... then you're ignorant.

Why use 10 words when 300 will do!
As usual David we get a lecture.

I have the answer to all this.
we as a human race need to stop communicating with each other as we are clearly all racists and when we open our mouths someone somewhere will take offence at it.
we need to stop making TV programs and limit our involvement in the world to our own little communities.
We need to get rid of democracy "freedom of speech" and all become communists
but where would the PC brigade go?

 

[mxfun]

but some of the things he says are highly offensive and not appropriate in this day and age.

So is farting in public but people still do it ....myself included

 

[viv1969]

....but where would the PC brigade go?

The Apple Store?

 

[Yves Geza]

I fear you're busy losing the argument with me, Pookey.

Half a dozen posts ago, I think we agreed that a joke has to be funny. Of course Bernard Manning has done some unfunny schtick. So do Marcus Brigstocke and Jeremy Hardy, but about different targets! Of course there is some unfunny racist nastiness in the guise of comedy but what we're arguing about is humour about race in general.

By the way, as for suggesting that Bill Bailey, or particularly, Eddie Izzard don't stereotype, you need to listen to their routines again! Izzard might cover his stereotyping observations by translating his schtick into good French or erudite Latin, but the assumed and shared generalisations are still there! Maybe they just don't apply to stereotyped groups that you notice!

So, returning to the original topic of the thread, Clarkson, cracked a pun. He used a vernacular that you say is hugely derogatory but most of us who even knew the term before, just accepted as a tongue-in-cheek, slightly risque, generally insuting word used in the abstract for literary effect. Remember TopGear passed no comment on the human qualities of the Asian guy on the bridge but you think that an audio-visual joke, using an unusual term, somehow belittled the subject I don't agree.

It's context, of course. The difference between Jeremy Clarkson or Bernard Manning using a word and being assumed, as @Bernie174 has said, to be motivated by hate rather than another comedians' use of the same joke but attributed with a different back-story.

You explained the situation perfectly when you said "I do find it amusing that all these people seem to be suggesting how thick skinned, resilient and difficult to offend people generally are, and that we shouldn't worry... yet it doesn't seem to take much for some of the same people to go crying to moderators in here when they get upset over something I said about their photographs"

That's because you're seen as a cantankerous sod! On TP, you're in the Clarkson role and you're seeing the same reaction from the other side as you award him!!

 

[Bernie174]

Well, we are agreed on one thing, racism, in disadvantaging people because of their race, is universal. In a great part that racism is displayed often by the very people who come to the UK and scream it at the top of their voices. It's used all to often to gain an advantage, and quitely forgotten about when it's them doing it.

I'm not sure why you have said

At no point, anywhere in this thread, have I assumed people are racist BECAUSE THEY ARE WHITE

I've told you once before, I am Anglo Irish Cypriot. Colour isn't relevant, apart from what appears to be a nice suntan, I am no different from you. The only part colour should play in this thread is to point out that when Clarkson refers to The Americans of being fat and not very bright, nothing is ever said. Why's that I wonder? Could it be that the attitude you display can only happen if someone is not white? If you complained bitterly when Clarkson does that, then I might have slightly more sympathy for you position, it's still wrong, patronising and inherently racist, but slightly less hypocritical.

I am not questioning my, or anyone else's right to 'be racist', I am questioning your racism. It is YOU and the 'equality' industry, that are setting yourselves up as paragons of virtue, ignoring your
own racism. If what clarkson said was racist, you are equally guilty of racism in assuming we cannot speak for ourselves. If as the Mexican Ambassador has, then thats all that needs to happen. What we don't need or want is the bleeding heart insult by proxy.

I can stand up for myself, so can my 2 Vietnamese friends, we do not need, or WANT you to start a patronising diatribe of rubbish about race, when it has no effect on you. As I said, friends who could be insulted by what Clarkson said were not. I am not offended by Irish Jokes, most Irish aren't. I am not offended by Gollywogs, in spite of the second syllable being slang for people from where I was born, albeit that has been superseded now. I am offended by the assumption that you've peddled. I am offended by the gagging of people who are funny, 'easy' humour or not. I am offended by the PC industry making a fuss about absolutely nothing to feather their own nests.

If I was offended then it is for me, not you to deal with that. If I am offended I can either ignore it, or deal with the person directly, like I am dealing with your racism. I note you have not addressed that in any way, which really says it all.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Half a dozen posts ago, I think we agreed that a joke has to be funny. Of course Bernard Manning has done some unfunny schtick. So do Marcus Brigstocke and Jeremy Hardy, but about different targets! Of course there is some unfunny racist nastiness in the guise of comedy but what we're arguing about is humour about race in general.

I said many posts ago that humour regarding race, or anything else is valid. Let me refresh your memory.

That's not to say you can't include race in humour... so long as it;s well observed, in context, and isn't necessarily negative. All the wheelchair gags that Peter Kay did for the BBC trailers were hilarious, but at no point would a disabled person find them offensive. There's a subtle difference between offence and observation. One concentrates on the ways in which someone is "other" to them... one just makes light of something that's naturally funny. Being fat, black, gay, disabled by itself is not funny. There are many ways in which we can observe humour in being fat, gay, black or disabled though.... invariably, calling them names is NOT the way to do it. That's just neither clever, or funny. It's just sad.

There you go.

By the way, as for suggesting that Bill Bailey, or particularly, Eddie Izzard don't stereotype, you need to listen to their routines again! Izzard might cover his stereotyping observations by translating his schtick into good French or erudite Latin, but the assumed and shared generalisations are still there! Maybe they just don't apply to stereotyped groups that you notice!

I'm referring to making jokes about someone based purely on a negative racial stereotype... like Top Gear did. I watched "part Troll" by Bill Bailey teh other night... I can't say I noticed anything. Care to post up a link to where either comedian is just doing the equivalent of "All Mexicans are just lazy"? I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but I simply do not recall ever seeing either comedian do this.

So, returning to the original topic of the thread, Clarkson, cracked a pun. He used a vernacular that you say is hugely derogatory but most of us who even knew the term before, just accepted as a tongue-in-cheek, slightly risque, generally insuting word used in the abstract for literary effect. Remember TopGear passed no comment on the human qualities of the Asian guy on the bridge but you think that an audio-visual joke, using an unusual term, somehow belittled the subject I don't agree.

So using words like Chink, Slope, Nigger.. all fine so long as no one actually passes comment on that person's human qualities? You serious?

You explained the situation perfectly when you said "I do find it amusing that all these people seem to be suggesting how thick skinned, resilient and difficult to offend people generally are, and that we shouldn't worry... yet it doesn't seem to take much for some of the same people to go crying to moderators in here when they get upset over something I said about their photographs"

That's because you're seen as a cantankerous sod! On TP, you're in the Clarkson role and you're seeing the same reaction from the other side as you award him!!

So if I'm TP's Clarkson... and you're all offended by me, why are you saying no one's offended by Clarkson? It's because what I say in here is relevant to you, and affects you, as I'm invariably talking about your photography - it has resonance with you and me insulting your photography is taken as a personal insult towards you. Clarkson making jokes about Mexicans is easy for you to dismiss, because you're not Mexican, and therefore don't give a toss.

 

[Pookeyhead]

I've told you once before, I am Anglo Irish Cypriot. Colour isn't relevant, apart from what appears to be a nice suntan, I am no different from you. The only part colour should play in this thread is to point out that when Clarkson refers to The Americans of being fat and not very bright, nothing is ever said. Why's that I wonder?

The list of transgressions from Clarkson are just too long to list, that's why. I don't agree with that either for exactly the same reasons. This is what I'm talking about: It's just name calling, and applying a negative stereotype to get a cheap laugh. Basically... it's just insulting people. If I wrote a tutorial in here for something, and in that tutorial was, 'The best thing to do would be to get the camera as low as possible, and lie down to look through the viewfinder... unless you are xxxxxxx, in which case you'd be to fat to do that' I would get banned. Yet it's OK to collectively call an entire country fat because I'm not addressing it at one particular individual? Isn't that just double standards?

Could it be that the attitude you display can only happen if someone is not white?

Not at all. Throughout EVERY post I've made, I've also made reference to gender, sexuality and disability... are you SURE you've been reading my posts?

If you complained bitterly when Clarkson does that, then I might have slightly more sympathy for you position, it's still wrong, patronising and inherently racist, but slightly less hypocritical.

See above.

I am not questioning my, or anyone else's right to 'be racist', I am questioning your racism.

I'm sorry... you seem to be under the impression that A) Race is only an issue when it affects non-whites, and that B) I'd only be offended if the comments were aimed at a "minority"... neither which is true, nor evidenced in anything I've said in this thread. Just because I'm using the two "famous" examples of Clarkson's stupidity (as was everyone else incidentally.. not just me) doesn;'t mean those are the only two examples I disapprove of. That's an assumption you have arrived at entirely by yourself.

If what clarkson said was racist, you are equally guilty of racism in assuming we cannot speak for ourselves.

I've never once said anyone can't speak for themselves. You assume that because someone can speak for themselves if they so wish, it's no longer any of my business, and only those directly affected should comment? What a strange attitude. NO one has any right to object to an injustice unless it affects them directly?
LOL


Essentially.. YOU ar making this personal.. I'm merely decrying casual racism.. even casual prejudice in all forms, as harmful. Throughout the whole thread I've diversified my comments to include MANY other things other than race alone. You just chose to ignore that, as you're now far more interested in winning an argument than you are in actually making any point you feel strongly about.

I can stand up for myself, so can my 2 Vietnamese friends, we do not need, or WANT you to start a patronising diatribe of rubbish about race, when it has no effect on you.

Care to explain why racism has no effect on me? Again... you SURE you're read everything I've written?

Oooh... you know some people who aren't English... aren't YOU clever... LOL

No one is saying anyone NEEDS anyone to stand up for them. It's your insecurity suggesting that. You're suggesting as a white person, I have no right to object, and me doing so is patronising to non-whites. [PLEASE DON'T TRY TO BYPASS THE SWEAR FILTER]. Racism is everyone's concern, and everyone has a right to comment on it, discuss and debate it, and if they chose to, object to it.

.As I said, friends who could be insulted by what Clarkson said were not. I am not offended by Irish Jokes, most Irish aren't. I am not offended by Gollywogs, in spite of the second syllable being slang for people from where I was born, albeit that has been superseded now. I am offended by the assumption that you've peddled. I am offended by the gagging of people who are funny, 'easy' humour or not. I am offended by the PC industry making a fuss about absolutely nothing to feather their own nests.

I'm sorry, but I know peopel who were offended. Since when have you, and your 2 friends been teh arbiter of such things. Since when have 2 people been an accurate representation of an entire nation?

It's wrong... simple as that. You, or your friends not being offended by it does not make it any less wrong, and to suggest it does shows incredible naivety.

If I was offended then it is for me, not you to deal with that. If I am offended I can either ignore it, or deal with the person directly, like I am dealing with your racism. I note you have not addressed that in any way, which really says it all.

Addressed what... my racism? That's because I've done absolutely nothing to suggest I'm racist. You suggesting I have no right to be concerned because I'm white is the only racist comment in here.

 

[viv1969]

Oooh... you know some people who aren't English... aren't YOU clever... LOL here.

Blown your entire argument (including making it personal) with one childish line. What next, push him over?

 

[BRASH]

Blown your entire argument (including making it personal) with one childish line. What next, push him over?

 

[Pookeyhead]

@viv1969 So that comment actually makes anything else I say invalid, whether they are valid or not? So if I say "Ruth... carrots are orange... you idiot" , calling you an idiot makes the fact untrue?

If you say so.

 

[viv1969]

@viv1969 So that comment actually makes anything else I say invalid, whether they are valid or not? So if I say "Ruth... carrots are orange... you idiot" , calling you an idiot makes the fact untrue?

If you say so.

Priceless. It just gets better.

 

[Pookeyhead]

Priceless. It just gets better.

Care to explain?

 

[norters]

I've seen the error of my ways. As a white man I will no longer by offended or upset by racism. Thank you all the fine people of Talk Photography for allowing me to see the light. You're the best!

 

[BRASH]

I'm not offended by racism. I'm a white working class male and know that in this country I'm f*** all!!

 

[norters]

I'm not offended by racism. I'm a white working class male and know that in this country I'm f*** all!!

My TP bingo card just exploded!

 

[Pookeyhead]

I'm not offended by racism. I'm a white working class male and know that in this country I'm f*** all!!

Oh stop feeling sorry for yourself.


[edit].. besides.... that would indicate you're a victim of racism.. so why would that not bother you?

 

[BRASH]

Oh stop feeling sorry for yourself.

I don't.

 

[BRASH]

My TP bingo card just exploded!

Good. Perhaps you should try e-cigarettes and oxygen next

 

[Pookeyhead]

It's not the first time you've said this .. and other "I'll go and scrape myself off someone's shoe" type comments.

Clearly there's an issue you haven't resolved

 

[BRASH]

It's not the first time you've said this .. and other "I'll go and scrape myself off someone's shoe" type comments.

Clearly there's an issue you haven't resolved

None. I know what I am, where I'm from and where I'm going. I'm totally 100% comfortable with me.

 

[Marc]

As this is going nowhere and is starting to get personal again, I think this is where we'll draw the line and bring this movie to an end with some closing credits.