Battery Powered Outdoor Lighting

Michael Sewell said:
With reference to the OP's original question, and brushing aside the tripe, you may find this table of some use.
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39 replies precede the most useful post so far (as far as I am concerned), cheers Michael :thumbs:


When I can be bothered I will sit down and say my piece, about the proactive approach some adopt, and observations, though feel it will fall on deaf ears
 
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Michael Sewell said:
With reference to the OP's original question, and brushing aside the tripe, you may find this table of some use.
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Firstly it's that sort of pathetic quip that causes problems on here. Considering some of the earlier comments about OTT posts from Lencarta, if I were your boss, I'd be ripping you a new one.

Secondly, why would you link to a lighting breakdown that was out of date this time last year?

None of the principal Li-on lighting systems are listed on there, nor is the Quadra RX system.
 
Mark Michael was trying to help, there IS a lot of tripe in the thread, please try and keep it civilised.
 
Michael Sewell said:
Mark, I'm unable to find a more up to date comparison table. Are you aware of one?
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Nope. Lighting Rumours need to get their bum in gear! :)

However it would have been worth pointing that out, in case anyone made the mistake of thinking that the list was up-to-date and comprehensive.
 
DemiLion said:
None of the principal Li-on lighting systems are listed on there, nor is the Quadra RX system.
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Mark, you seem to have mis-read the table contents I linked to, as your requested items are listed

Quadra and Ranger RX
There is also the Li-on equipment listed too.

It also covers the battery packs for AC lights, which may also be of use to Al, should he consider going down that route.

although the original posting of that comparison table is some time ago, I believe it has been updated since. Somewhat sporadically, but updated non the less.

I'd certainly be interested in an up to date comparison table if anyone knows of one.
 
Michael Sewell said:
Mark, you seem to have mis-read the table contents I linked to, as your requested items are listed

Quadra and Ranger RX
There is also the Li-on equipment listed too.

It also covers the battery packs for AC lights, which may also be of use to Al, should he consider going down that route.

although the original posting of that comparison table is some time ago, I believe it has been updated since. Somewhat sporadically, but updated non the less.

I'd certainly be interested in an up to date comparison table if anyone knows of one.
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I think that you need to stop digging Michael.

You do know that there's a difference between the Quadra, the Quadra RX, the Ranger and the Ranger RX don't you?


Most of the Li-on kit listed is at least half a generation, if not a full one, out of date.
 
Michael Sewell said:
It also covers the battery packs for AC lights, which may also be of use to Al, .
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It would have been some use to me had I not bought li-ion's, which quite frankly in reality are pretty hopeless for the action freezing capabilities I originally and VERY specifically enquired about alternatives to Einsteins. I have an explorer XT already and did advise that in my thread.
I have since ordered 5 speedlights in an effort to be able to shoot the fast flash duration types of shots I was enquiring about being able to do. Speedlights were not the way I wanted to go but after shelling out for the li-ions, money in the coffers is a little low. The set up I should have bought was the Elincrom A heads with hindsight, if Garry or anyone for that matter ever mentions the Li-ion kit when an enquiry is made about fast flash duration lights again, I'll be jumping all over that thread to prevent anyone else being sucked as I was.
 
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You see, it looks more like I may have misread your initial reply. However, the fact remains, it's still a good starting point for Al.

The Lighting rumours list doesn't appear to cover anything at all from Focus this year, which is a shame, particularly as David Selby spent some time at Focus. I know they have covered each release of various bits of kit, as and when it's been announced, just a shame it hasn't been added to the comparison chart.

I've still been looking for a more up to date and comprehensive comparison chart, and still coming up with nothing.
I would have thought there would have been something available, TBH
 
alsos said:
It would have been some use to me had I not bought li-ion's, which quite frankly in reality are pretty hopeless for the action freezing capabilities I originally and VERY specifically enquired about alternatives to Einsteins. I have an explorer XT already and did advise that in my thread.
I have since ordered 5 speedlights in an effort to be able to shoot the fast flash duration types of shots I was enquiring about being able to do. Speedlights were not the way I wanted to go but after shelling out for the li-ions, money in the coffers is a little low. The set up I should have bought was the Elincrom A heads with hindsight, if Garry or anyone for that matter ever mentions the Li-ion kit when an enquiry is made about fast flash duration lights again, I'll be jumping all over that thread to prevent anyone else being sucked as I was.
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In which thread were you advised to get Lencarta Li-ons for action freezing?
 
alsos said:
It would have been some use to me had I not bought li-ion's, which quite frankly in reality are pretty hopeless for the action freezing capabilities I originally and VERY specifically enquired about alternatives to Einsteins. I have an explorer XT already and did advise that in my thread.
I have since ordered 5 speedlights in an effort to be able to shoot the fast flash duration types of shots I was enquiring about being able to do. Speedlights were not the way I wanted to go but after shelling out for the li-ions, money in the coffers is a little low. The set up I should have bought was the Elincrom A heads with hindsight, if Garry or anyone for that matter ever mentions the Li-ion kit when an enquiry is made about fast flash duration lights again, I'll be jumping all over that thread to prevent anyone else being sucked as I was.
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For most people, most of the time, action freezing capability is pretty unimportant, because they want to use their outdoor lighting either to contribute to the ambient light (hotshoe flashguns or low powered alternatives to the Li-on) or they want to overpower the sun, which requires, IMO at least a true 600Ws of power, and the effective speed is always going to be the max shutter speed at which the camera will synch, which can be as low as 1/200th. Some cameras are faster, but they tend to be expensive, e.g. there are some Hassie models which, from memory, go up to around 1/850th - but even that isn't really all that fast.

But of course different people have different needs and hotshoe flashguns or the really fast but low powered Quantum or Quantum-type lights are a much better bet for people who are shooting at low light levels who need really fast flash durations.

Like everything else in life, the Safari Li-on is a compromise - a true 600Ws of power, and amazing battery life and fast recycling - but it's designed for photographers who sometimes need to overpower the sun, not for people who need to freeze action in low lighting conditions. If people need both short flash durations and power, I usually recommend something from the Profoto range. If power doesn't matter at all, then hotshoe flashguns or Quantum is a good option, or there is the Quadra with A heads, offering much less power and battery capacity than either Profoto or Safari Li-on but with more power than Quantum and reasonably fast flash durations. I never have and never would recommend the Safari Li-on if fast flash durations are important, would never give misleading information or 'suck anyone in'.

As Richard says, show us the thread! The only one I can find is this one, where you asked a specific question and got a specific, detailed and 100% accurate and truthful answer.
 
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Your right I should have posted the link http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=399167
An exctract from my first post
I am drawn towards getting a pair of Einsteins.
my question is, are there any alternatives. obviously the reason for me looking at these and the priority is the very fast flash duration for freezing action.
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An extract from the first reply I had which happened to be you Garry
The only real alternative in this situation is to use a powerful battery powered flash such as Profoto or Lencarta Safari Li-on
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I don't have long to leave a more detailed reply as I am getting ready to go to work. But after I say the priority is fast flash duration why you even mention the 700th sec Li-ion is beyond me.
Edit perhaps your employer and shared holder status might have something to do with it ;-)
 
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Alsos did you not try them first, you were asking if you could do that and were offered a trial, also there are quite a lot of replies in that thread that point to other items that you could try too?
 
Garry this was your answer in full

The Einstein may be a good choice for you if you need really short flash durations, although you do need to be aware that
1. They are an expensive option outside the USA and they aren't exactly selling like hot cakes, so I don't know what the customer support is like if you run into any problems.
2. You will only get really short flash durations if you turn the power right down. This review is very helpful.

If you're shooting fast moving subjects (and need to freeze the movement) in the studio then they will do the job very well, and probably as well as anything else available, because power won't be a big issue. But if you're using them outdoors in bright lighting conditions they will have far too little power once you've turned them down far enough to get short flash durations - and it's pretty pointless having really fast flash durations if the shutter speed is letting in so much ambient light that the flash is effectively contributing little or nothing to the shot - you may as well just use the ambient light at a high shutter speed and forget about the flash...

The only real alternative in this situation is to use a powerful battery powered flash such as Profoto or Lencarta Safari Li-on and use a neutral density filter to reduce the contribution of the ambient light. This will generally give you better results than a less powerful flash with a shorter flash duration.

If the level of ambient light doesn't matter to you then you have other choices. The Elinchrom Quadra with the fast head, or a hotshoe flash alternative like the Quantum or Strobeam, although again they use IGBT to achieve the short flash durations so you need to turn the power down and will end up with very little power at really short flash durations
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paul williams said:
Which seems rather well balanced and informative :thinking:

Paul
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It seems so, but there are parts which could be considered to be misleading- hopefully inadvertently.

For example, referring to 'the Strobeam' as a hot shoe replacement is wildly inaccurate.

Whilst the D200 could certainly be called that, the D400 and EID500 certainly aren't; what they are however is a direct competitor to the Safari in an almost identical price bracket and could certainly be considered to have advantages over the Lencarta option in some areas.
 
alsos said:
Your right I should have posted the link http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=399167
An exctract from my first post


An extract from the first reply I had which happened to be you Garry

I don't have long to leave a more detailed reply as I am getting ready to go to work. But after I say the priority is fast flash duration why you even mention the 700th sec Li-ion is beyond me.
Edit perhaps your employer and shared holder status might have something to do with it ;-)
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I'm afraid I must side with Garry on this one, Maybe he didn't make it sufficiently clear that he was talking in the more general context of using flash with high shutter speeds, but I don't see any attempt to be anything but helpful there.

You were also party to this thread http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=404919 (the one Garry also linked to in his reply above) that specifically gives details of the Lencarta Li-on's flash durations in the most meaningful terms.

You will not find better information on flash durations than that, and there was also reference to Advanced Photographer magazine that provided much of the data (that I wrote).

TBH I'm amazed that armed with all this, you didn't seek out a copy of the magazine review, which has exactly the information you need on all the most popular units. But even without it, to have ended up making the mistake of buying a Li-on for freezing fast action is something you should take personal responsibility for.
 
HoppyUK said:
I'm afraid I must side with Garry on this one, Maybe he didn't make it sufficiently clear that he was talking in the more general context of using flash with high shutter speeds, but I don't see any attempt to be anything but helpful there.

You were also party to this thread http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=404919 (the one Garry also linked to in his reply above) that specifically gives details of the Lencarta Li-on's flash durations in the most meaningful terms.

You will not find better information on flash durations than that, and there was also reference to Advanced Photographer magazine that provided much of the data (that I wrote).

TBH I'm amazed that armed with all this, you didn't seek out a copy of the magazine review, which has exactly the information you need on all the most popular units. But even without it, to have ended up making the mistake of buying a Li-on for freezing fast action is something you should take personal responsibility for.
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I had bought the Li-ion before "being involved in that thread" as you put it. and the constant references to different measurement techniques, flash duration, real world shutter speed equivalent T1 times and T.5 times IGBT the list goes on, it's a minefield.
As I am sure you can tell from the fact I thought the real world shutter duration being the same as flash duration.
 
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So over 50 posts in this thread and most of them no use at all to the OP as they are just like endlessly rehashing some old family feud(s) :(

Can we have a this thread is dead smiley? ;)

Paul
 
alsos said:
I had bought the Li-ion before "being involved in that thread" as you put it. and the constant references to different measurement techniques, flash duration, real world shutter speed equivalent T1 times and T.5 times IGBT the list goes on, it's a minefield.
As I am sure you can tell from the fact I thought the real world shutter duration being the same as flash duration.
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Well that's unfortunate, but not really Garry's responsibility. And FWIW, before you bought, Garry had also provided a link to a review of the Einstein on RobGalbraith.com that makes the same point as I did in the Advanced Photographer magazine review - basically that manufacturers' quoted t.5 flash duaration times are extremely misleading.

I'm not surprised you're confused by all this, most people are, but it seems that the villain of the piece here is the industry standard t.5 reference.

Couldn't you have returned the Lencartas? (Maybe you still could... ;)) It sounds like it's the Elinchrom Quadra with A-head that you need.
 
This thread is a perfect demonstration of Treeman, POAH, Demilion and now my take on things, I would hazard a guess there are others who feel the same but wouldn't dare raise their head above the parapet.
As far as I am concearned Garry suggested buying the li-on.
He then precedes to draw attention to the drawbacks of every other solution suggested, not once did he mention Li-ons were not suitable the opposite in fact. Nor did he mention it in the 45minute conversation I had with him before ordering. This to me is a demonstration of this area being used as a sales area.

Dont get me wrong the li-on, when put to be their designed purpose are very nice and live up to every other expectation EXCEPT quick flash duration. I can see why they won best in the review.
I do not intend on returning them though it did cross my mind, its worth pointing out that there is a financial penalty in doing so, you are liable to the postage both directions they also have to be in "as bought" condition. The case has a scratch on it as I have used it in a forest for mountain biking.
I will put them to other uses and have ordered the speedlights to do what I had originally posted advice on. However as I said previously if I had the chance to do this again I would have bought the Quarda A's. I may well end up getting them at a later date regardless.
The other point I dont want to be miss understood on I wouldnt expect anything else but the admin to defend Garry and Michael on this, after all why would they publicly disagree with an advertiser, not really a good idea if you want them to renew subscription next year is it, so not really paying much attention to there personal views on this.
 
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I'll offer a quick line on this as I'm posting from my phone and pushed for time.

As admin of this site, no one is above their membership privilege, wether they pay to advertise or not. If the rules are broken penalties follow. And, it might surprise you to know that the income from lencarta and photolearn is a very small % of our revenue stream and it doesn't buy favour !
 
alsos said:
This thread is a perfect demonstration of Treeman, POAH, Demilion and now my take on things, I would hazard a guess there are others who feel the same but wouldn't dare raise their head above the parapet.
As far as I am concearned Garry suggested buying the li-on.
He then precedes to draw attention to the drawbacks of every other solution suggested, not once did he mention Li-ons were not suitable the opposite in fact. Nor did he mention it in the 45minute conversation I had with him before ordering. This to me is a demonstration of this area being used as a sales area.

Dont get me wrong the li-on, when put to be their designed purpose are very nice and live up to every other expectation EXCEPT quick flash duration. I can see why they won best in the review.
I do not intend on returning them though it did cross my mind, its worth pointing out that there is a financial penalty in doing so, you are liable to the postage both directions they also have to be in "as bought" condition. The case has a scratch on it as I have used it in a forest for mountain biking.
I will put them to other uses and have ordered the speedlights to do what I had originally posted advice on. However as I said previously if I had the chance to do this again I would have bought the Quarda A's. I may well end up getting them at a later date regardless.
The other point I dont want to be miss understood on I wouldnt expect anything else but the admin to defend Garry and Michael on this, after all why would they publicly disagree with an advertiser, not really a good idea if you want them to renew subscription next year is it, so not really paying much attention to there personal views on this.
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Look, the situation here couldn't be clearer.
You asked a specific question and I gave a full, complete and totally correct, truthful answer. I even provided you with a link to another site and gave you info about the test in Advanced Photographer. And I wasn't the only person to give you that info.

But, somehow you seem to believe that I misled you, or talked you into it in some way, when the reality is that you didn't understand what you read, didn't bother to use Google to find out what it meant, didn't bother to ask for clarification and didn't test them before ordering. You could have sent them back within the 30 day trial period, it would only have cost you the courier charges, which is nothing in relation to an expensive purchase.

I didn't earn a penny out of your purchase, my role is to help people, and I want Lencarta customers to be happy so that they become loyal and regular customers. Sometimes I feel like the sales manager of Morgan Cars, with a 4 year waiting list of customers desperate to get their hands on one - his job is really allocation rather than sales and with some products, like the Li-on, it's a constant struggle to keep up with demand, so even if my motives were questionable, which they are not, running out of stock a bit earlier because of your purchase doesn't help either me or the customers who are waiting.

You made what seems to have been a bad purchase, bearing in mind that you specifically want short flash durations. But it was a decision that you were totally responsible for because you had all the information you needed.

As for the admins, you really don't seem to believe it, but neither Lencarta nor I have any special treatment or influence. A website like TP is never going to risk its credibility by treating different people differently.
 
This is very simple in my world..

If someone lied to you or misled you, then take action to remedy it.

If they didn't, and you just didnt do your homework then just take responsibility for your mistake.
 
Garry Edwards said:
Look, the situation here couldn't be clearer.
You asked a specific question and I gave a full, complete and totally correct, truthful answer. I even provided you with a link to another site and gave you info about the test in Advanced Photographer. And I wasn't the only person to give you that info.

But, somehow you seem to believe that I misled you, or talked you into it in some way, when the reality is that you didn't understand what you read, didn't bother to use Google to find out what it meant, didn't bother to ask for clarification and didn't test them before ordering. You could have sent them back within the 30 day trial period, it would only have cost you the courier charges, which is nothing in relation to an expensive purchase.

I didn't earn a penny out of your purchase, my role is to help people, and I want Lencarta customers to be happy so that they become loyal and regular customers. Sometimes I feel like the sales manager of Morgan Cars, with a 4 year waiting list of customers desperate to get their hands on one - his job is really allocation rather than sales and with some products, like the Li-on, it's a constant struggle to keep up with demand, so even if my motives were questionable, which they are not, running out of stock a bit earlier because of your purchase doesn't help either me or the customers who are waiting.

You made what seems to have been a bad purchase, bearing in mind that you specifically want short flash durations. But it was a decision that you were totally responsible for because you had all the information you needed.

As for the admins, you really don't seem to believe it, but neither Lencarta nor I have any special treatment or influence. A website like TP is never going to risk its credibility by treating different people differently.
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Quite right could we not get back on to the subject or could a mod lock this as it seems to be going round in circles :bang:

Ian
 
Ian White said:
Quite right could we not get back on to the subject or could a mod lock this as it seems to be going round in circles :bang:

Ian
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It is quite interesting how blank this type of thread can appear because of the people I've added to my ignore list over the couple of years I've been a member here - so if I don't respond to your post you are probable on the list! :D

Now what was the original subject again :thinking: oh yes battery lights - thing I find quite strange is how many people seem quite unable to research and actually make up their own minds!

Whenever, I'm considering making a potentially costly purchase I tend to go through the same process of listing the factors that are important to me (if you don't have an inkling of what those 'factors' are or should be, then that is perhaps a good topic for a forum IMO) but first and always I put a financial figure on the table - this generally thins out the pack considerably.

Then I research and see which ticks the most boxes. After all this I try and get to play with them and buy what I like the best. I don't think I've ever gone onto any forum and asked "what should I buy?" because generally reading the responses, people mostly say to buy what they bought - same as I don't usually say this is the brand to go for over that one, the most involved I usually get is to say go for a known make like; E, or B, or L......and I don't think I've ever seriously suggested to anyone to get my preferred brand, even though they are far superior to many others ;)

Paul
 
^^^^^^ I agree with this 100%

Why would you make a relatively expensive purchase, that with the correct planning should outlast at least one body change if not more, wit outdoing a decent amount of research first? I think that it took me about three months of thinking, reading and testing before I finally made a decision.
 
right anyone else who has a problem should either use the contact us function or PM the person they are most disgruntled with, it needs to stay out of this thread.

And for the record, none of you have any idea how many posts we remove, edit or move in a day, or who the belong to or anything else about how we moderate. If you have a problem(or a perceived problem) then use the contact us function.
 
Garry Edwards said:
I didn't earn a penny out of your purchase, my role is to help people, and I want Lencarta customers to be happy so that they become loyal and regular customers. .
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You may not have pocketed any money directly from that purchase but as a shareholder you have a financial interest in every transaction.
 
kmhphoto said:
You may not have pocketed any money directly from that purchase but as a shareholder you have a financial interest in every transaction.
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I get the feeling that you won't be here long. Just saying like.......
 
kmhphoto said:
You may not have pocketed any money directly from that purchase but as a shareholder you have a financial interest in every transaction.
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Nonsense.
I have a 3% shareholding in Lencarta, but have never been paid a penny in dividends and never will be, because I don't want or need the money. The only way that I will ever gain a financial advantage from my massive 3% shareholding is if the Company is sold, and that just isn't going to happen.
 
matty said:
right anyone else who has a problem should either use the contact us function or PM the person they are most disgruntled with, it needs to stay out of this thread.

And for the record, none of you have any idea how many posts we remove, edit or move in a day, or who the belong to or anything else about how we moderate. If you have a problem(or a perceived problem) then use the contact us function.
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:shrug:

kmhphoto said:
You may not have pocketed any money directly from that purchase but as a shareholder you have a financial interest in every transaction.
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thanks for totally ignoring my post. :thumbsdown:
 
who knows Paul, we'll give benefit of the doubt this time..
 
Glenn Mather said:
I'm looking to purchase some form of out-door battery powered lighting for use mainly at wedding receptions, for evening bride and groom "atmospheric" shoots. Anyone any good suggestions?

Cheers Glennhttp://www.gmatherphotography.com
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Glenn

Back in the real world now

If you want something fast, light and quick, for outdoors, invest in 2-3 speedilights, radio triggers, a few lightweight stands & some simple collapsible modifiers - brolly, wescott softbox etc.. We carry enough crap about without doubling up on a second layer of un-needed kit. At least with the speeedlights, they all offer you a backup to the flash you had on your camera anyway, same batteries, etc... For outdoors, lightweight and portable is the key.. In so far as using a beauty dish, and the like is concerned, unless you have a team of people running about, it all gets a bit unwieldy. If I cant carry it easily, I don't take it. You can have the best set up in the world, but if the ergonomics of it slap you in the face, you are not going to use it.

For receptions indoors, H&S becomes more of an issue, your lighting will need to be installed in safely, usually behind the band, and usually for the whole night. Popping up random stands with drunken guests just isn't going to happen. I use mains powered flash heads, you don't need to spend a fortune here. a combination of reflectors and grids is pretty much all you need. The other way I do it is to use speedilights on a stand, depends on the venue. If my lights are in all night, one of the most useful things I do is "zone them", at which point your choice of trigger may be important for you.

Flash duration can be an issue in the bouquet toss, and for some types of dancing. Recycling time can be an issue especially if you are using the flashes at full power

Look at the practicable aspects. Unless each battery powered flash has its own battery, you start limiting yourself on exactly where you can place your heads (the cable is only so long, and it is a cable that needs safely placing. The one thing I do know is that placement is often the one thing you really don't have a lot of control over.

So before you buy, stop and think where/when/how am I going to use this stuff, as you need to carry it, install it, and retrieve it later
 
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alsos said:
I had bought the Li-ion before "being involved in that thread" as you put it. and the constant references to different measurement techniques, flash duration, real world shutter speed equivalent T1 times and T.5 times IGBT the list goes on, it's a minefield.
As I am sure you can tell from the fact I thought the real world shutter duration being the same as flash duration.
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As Bob Dylan famously sang, The Times They Are A-Changin

In a few days from now there will be a flash trigger set available that will allow Nikon DSLR cameras to be used at a genuine 1/8000th sec - and no, this is not Hypersynch, HSS, tail end hack or anything else, it simply allows any Nikon DSLR camera to be used with any flash at any shutter speed.

This will produce effective flash durations of 1/8000th sec with the Safari Li-on, and come to that with any flash. And you don't need to understand how t.1 and t.5 flash durations are measured, you'll get exactly the same result with flash, in terms of action stopping potential, as you'll get with daylight at the same shutter speed.

The first batch will be for Nikon only. They will also be available for Canon soon.
 
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