Bass player....

[jontucker]

A friend of mine writes and publishes his own bass guitar books and he asked me to take some shots of various techniques to go into his latest book. After buggering around for quite some time we managed to get this look:-



There are a few things that need cloning (rear end of the strap, his jeans etc) and it's going to be cropped square so I'm happy with the composition but how should I have gone about lighting it?

The way I ended up doing it was with a softbox camera left slightly high (pretty much level with his chest and pointing down at the guitar) and then an umbrella pointing upward from under the headstock of the guitar to light the underside of his hands/fingers. I think it looks reasonable but not great so I was after some tips for next time??

One thing I would do is have him wear a different colour shirt and/or use a coloured BG rather than black. I think it looks a bit too low key.

Any thoughts?

 

[Sparkles33]

A little off topic, but why do you want to take the straps off? It's part of playing. :shrug:

 

[jontucker]

A little off topic, but why do you want to take the straps off? It's part of playing. :shrug:

Just because it looks untidy. Yes it's part of playing but his own strap (that he forgot) is shorter so when he borrowed my guitar strap he had to use the second hole leaving the ugly bit of leather sticking out! :thumbsdown:

 

[Sparkles33]

ah ok, makes sense.

TBH though from a musicians point of view, I'd expect to see a strap - but you're right, that strap doesn't look quite right.

 

[jontucker]

ah ok, makes sense.

TBH though from a musicians point of view, I'd expect to see a strap - but you're right, that strap doesn't look quite right.

I should add that we did make attempts to hide it but it wasn't playing ball so in the end it was a case of "sod it, I can clone it out!".

 

[HoppyUK]

Looks pretty good to me John. Just a few thoughts I've had looking at it. What lens did you use? There looks like some distortion going on with the neck, as if it's bending away from the camera? Or is it me? I wonder what the distortion correction in DPP would do to it? But then you're going to crop it off anyway.

Like MM, I think little real world details left in are quite good - adds authenticity. By all means try to hide them, but not clone them out if not essential.

Guitar technique? I can see his right hand perfectly, but not much of the left. I guess it's hard to show both in one shot.

Guitars are beautiful things, even tatty well-used ones, and that one looks fabulous. Your light and the low-key treatment looks very well to me. If he had a blue shirt and yellow background the shot would look completely different. Not necessarily worse, just different. Might be an idea to try some changes and see what you both think.

This might be a stupid idea. Half of me says try a few things and then settle on a style for the whole series, the other half says pick a style that suits the type of music or technqiue being demonstrated.

Here's another idea I've just thought of. I'm assuming he's posing there - what would it look like if he was actually playing, frozen in action? Or maybe with a tiny hint of ambient blur in there? You could then see the strings move, possibly get an idea of how hard he was playing, that kind of thing. Might look pretty cool too. You could do it if you've got a decent speedlite in that softbox and move it close, perhaps on higher ISO. Then put it on manual on low power and shoot on continuous. You should be able to get three or four frames at least with the camera at full tilt before it gives up, and a few attempts at that speed should get you the shot. Play with ambient light levels and shutter speed to get a bit of blurr. Worth a try?

 

[jontucker]

Looks pretty good to me John. Just a few thoughts I've had looking at it. What lens did you use? There looks like some distortion going on with the neck, as if it's bending away from the camera? Or is it me? I wonder what the distortion correction in DPP would do to it? But then you're going to crop it off anyway.

Thanks Richard. Now that you mention it I think there is some distortion there. I used the 24-70 @ 50mm (on the 7D) - I've never noticed any distortion before but I guess the converging lines of the guitar would exaggerate any hint of it. As you say it'll be cropped off anyway.

Guitar technique? I can see his right hand perfectly, but not much of the left. I guess it's hard to show both in one shot.

He had a list of exactly what shots he needed for the book. Some one hand, some the other and some both. This particular one is showing what the right hand is doing when playing 'tenths' and he wasn't worried about the left too much. You are right though, it's very difficult to show what both hands are doing at the same time. One nice thing was that he wanted some short DoF shots like the one below so we really had a play around doing them. His hands are in a right old state though so I think they'll need a bit of PP.

Guitars are beautiful things, even tatty well-used ones, and that one looks fabulous. Your light and the low-key treatment looks very well to me. If he had a blue shirt and yellow background the shot would look completely different. Not necessarily worse, just different. Might be an idea to try some changes and see what you both think.

This might be a stupid idea. Half of me says try a few things and then settle on a style for the whole series, the other half says pick a style that suits the type of music or technqiue being demonstrated.

Yeah that is a great looking guitar. I found it incredibly difficult to light because, unlike a Les Paul say (which no doubt presents it's own problems), it's fairly flat and just reflected everything I didn't want it to. I've only got a small home set up and not much room to move things around so it was quite a challenge.

He is actually quite a serious writer/publisher and I'm reluctant to experiment too much and not give him the results he's after. I went with the 'settle on one style' method but if we had more time I think I would like to try adding some different colours in there. It certainly would look different with yellow/blue and to be honest I think he wouldn't mind either way, he just wants an image that illustrates the technique he's explaining on the page.

Here's another idea I've just thought of. I'm assuming he's posing there - what would it look like if he was actually playing, frozen in action? Or maybe with a tiny hint of ambient blur in there? You could then see the strings move, possibly get an idea of how hard he was playing, that kind of thing. Might look pretty cool too. You could do it if you've got a decent speedlite in that softbox and move it close, perhaps on higher ISO. Then put it on manual on low power and shoot on continuous. You should be able to get three or four frames at least with the camera at full tilt before it gives up, and a few attempts at that speed should get you the shot. Play with ambient light levels and shutter speed to get a bit of blurr. Worth a try?

This sounds like a great idea... but, in this context (i.e the book) he wanted very concise shots and nothing too frilly. It does give me another idea though, what about doing as you describe but with more of the player in shot, striking a pose (!). Trouble is, this particular friend would be the first to admit that he's not the 'coolest' bass player in the world. He is an outstanding (and I mean really outstanding) bassist and regularly tours the world with the likes of Carl Palmer (of E.L.P fame, seen in that video clip), he his head of bass at the Brighton Institute of Music, he's written and published about 15 books (I think) and is one of my very oldest friends, but like me, he doesn't look like a rock star! I have other musician friends though and I'm just thinking I might give this ago with one of the trendier ones!



This image is demonstrating the technique of bending harmonics by pressing the string above the nut (apparently! )

 

[Drpepper99uk]

Hey,

Nice Jaydee bass..I had one of these a few years ago after seeing the great Mark King using one in a Level 42 concert some years ago.(he now uses Status headless basses).shame I sold it as it wasen't right for playing in the band I joined(too honky sounding)

Mike.

 

[jontucker]

Hey,

Nice Jaydee bass..I had one of these a few years ago after seeing the great Mark King using one in a Level 42 concert some years ago.(he now uses Status headless basses).shame I sold it as it wasen't right for playing in the band I joined(too honky sounding)

Mike.

Funny you should mention Mark King. I believe this book is based around the guitars he has owned and the styles he played on them. I think Mark has supplied some images himself for the book too!

 

[HoppyUK]

Head of Bass. That's a cool job title.

It can't be distortion at 50mm on a crop camera. Must be my eyes!

I'm still liking the idea of some close up action shots. I just think you might just see some subtleties of technqiue that might be helpful and could look cool, but I guess the HoB will know best.

TBH I think you've done a really nice job. I'm getting a good feel from the treatment you've given. FWIW, I like his knarled fingers and stuff like that flash of red from the strap that you probably want to clone out. Perhaps you could move it down and to the left a bit

 

[jontucker]

It can't be distortion at 50mm on a crop camera. Must be my eyes!

My technical knowledge ended just as you started talking about it actually!

I'm still liking the idea of some close up action shots. I just think you might just see some subtleties of technqiue that might be helpful and could look cool, but I guess the HoB will know best.

I totally get what you're saying but would that not get a bit lost when these are shrunk down to the size of a postage stamp (ok I'm exaggerating, slightly) in the book? They might even end up in B&W yet. Something to consider for another time though definitely. He often has big displays made up for trade shows, not that I have taken any shots for them before, and I think that would work well then.

TBH I think you've done a really nice job. I'm getting a good feel from the treatment you've given. FWIW, I like his knarled fingers and stuff like that flash of red from the strap that you probably want to clone out. Perhaps you could move it down and to the left a bit

Thank you very muchly.... I'm going to lie and say that cloning that strap HADN'T crossed my mind!

 

[HoppyUK]

What I'm imagining Jon, is a bit closer up, probably some quite vigorous playing. The shot would show the skin depression on the finger/thumb, angle of the fingers on release rather than the static pose they are in now, the deflection of the string recorded as ambient blur, plus a sharp image of the string frozen by the flash. Some nice texture from the light you already have.

Stuff shot with flash like that shows things you can't normally see and quite often they are very revealing and interesting. Next time you're working together, I think it would be worth firing off a few frames, with direct flash on camera, just to get an idea. Maybe 1/30sec with quite a bit of ambient in there. I dunno, could be something or nothing :shrug: If it's something, it would look fab as a big exhibition print, but a waste of time as a black & white postage stamp

 

[karfeef]

from the perspective of a learning bass player that i am, who has used a couple of books so far, these images are quality as they are - i'm used to seeing poor quality shots in b/w (almost photocopied quality) in the books i have.

 

[jontucker]

What I'm imagining Jon, is a bit closer up, probably some quite vigorous playing. The shot would show the skin depression on the finger/thumb, angle of the fingers on release rather than the static pose they are in now, the deflection of the string recorded as ambient blur, plus a sharp image of the string frozen by the flash. Some nice texture from the light you already have.

Stuff shot with flash like that shows things you can't normally see and quite often they are very revealing and interesting. Next time you're working together, I think it would be worth firing off a few frames, with direct flash on camera, just to get an idea. Maybe 1/30sec with quite a bit of ambient in there. I dunno, could be something or nothing :shrug: If it's something, it would look fab as a big exhibition print, but a waste of time as a black & white postage stamp

I'm definitely liking the sound of this Richard. This shoot was at night in my house so I opted to use all flash as opposed to letting any of the ambient in there. The room I used (my dining room lol) has a wooden floor (other than the bit covered with the BG train) and cream walls so with the room lights on the ambient light is very warm. I'm not experienced enough to know whether mixing that light with flash will be any good or not so I'll have to try it and see. If not I can always do it in the day time I guess.

I would love to think that those shots will end up reproduced in their current state but I suspect that printing costs will mean that the quality is reduced. Shame but he needs to make a living eh.

 

[jontucker]

from the perspective of a learning bass player that i am, who has used a couple of books so far, these images are quality as they are - i'm used to seeing poor quality shots in b/w (almost photocopied quality) in the books i have.

Cheers karfeef! At the risk of sounding like I'm on commission (which I'm not I hasten to add!), you should check out his website, his method books are great for learning!

 

[karfeef]

i shall indeed many thanks =D

 

[HoppyUK]

I'm definitely liking the sound of this Richard. This shoot was at night in my house so I opted to use all flash as opposed to letting any of the ambient in there. The room I used (my dining room lol) has a wooden floor (other than the bit covered with the BG train) and cream walls so with the room lights on the ambient light is very warm. I'm not experienced enough to know whether mixing that light with flash will be any good or not so I'll have to try it and see. If not I can always do it in the day time I guess.

I would love to think that those shots will end up reproduced in their current state but I suspect that printing costs will mean that the quality is reduced. Shame but he needs to make a living eh.

Since you've been so polite, I'll drone on a bit more Jon

The shot I'm thinking of needs some vigorous playing to get a decent bit of movement in there. It's probably only an idea from a pictorial point of view, maybe not so wonderful for learning! You've got the perfect situation there in the first pic as these things work best when you've got a bright area moving against a dark area, eg the strings.

The difficultly will be matching the ambient to the shutter speed, and the shutter speed you need depends on the blur you want and that depends on the amount/speed of movement. Being an expert bass player myself, obviously, I think 1/30sec might be a starting point But that could be miles out, or even not that critical. Dunno.

Just guessing again, I would use nothing more elaborate than a desk lamp for the ambient, and move it closer/further to adjust exposure in conjunction with the shutter speed. You will just get a warmer tone from the lamp which I don't think will do any harm at all.

I'll shut up now

 

[jontucker]

Since you've been so polite, I'll drone on a bit more Jon

The shot I'm thinking of needs some vigorous playing to get a decent bit of movement in there. It's probably only an idea from a pictorial point of view, maybe not so wonderful for learning! You've got the perfect situation there in the first pic as these things work best when you've got a bright area moving against a dark area, eg the strings.

The difficultly will be matching the ambient to the shutter speed, and the shutter speed you need depends on the blur you want and that depends on the amount/speed of movement. Being an expert bass player myself, obviously, I think 1/30sec might be a starting point But that could be miles out, or even not that critical. Dunno.

Just guessing again, I would use nothing more elaborate than a desk lamp for the ambient, and move it closer/further to adjust exposure in conjunction with the shutter speed. You will just get a warmer tone from the lamp which I don't think will do any harm at all.

I'll shut up now

SOLD... You've convinced me, I'm going to have to give it a go!

I might have accidentally ordered a 5DmkII yesterday (the Wilkinson deal!) and it's going to need testing on something! If it's any good I'll upload some shots... if not, well, I'll blame you... :razz:

 

[HoppyUK]

SOLD... You've convinced me, I'm going to have to give it a go!

I might have accidentally ordered a 5DmkII yesterday (the Wilkinson deal!) and it's going to need testing on something! If it's any good I'll upload some shots... if not, well, I'll blame you... :razz:

Is that the one where you get a free 580EXII?

Just had a go with my 40D and 580EX fired direct at 1/16th power. At 1m I am getting six consectutive shots with the camera flat out at 1/30sec, f/11 ISO400, in 1.1 seconds. Photographed a stop watch - how sad is that You can't miss!

Here's another idea (sorry) now you've got that fab gun. Strobe flash. Try 1/60sec with the strobe around 150 cyles per second. Strobed flash, bit of ambient blur blending the images... I'm loving it already

 

[jontucker]

Is that the one where you get a free 580EXII?

Yep, bloody good deal I thought!

Just had a go with my 40D and 580EX fired direct at 1/16th power. At 1m I am getting six consectutive shots with the camera flat out at 1/30sec, f/11 ISO400, in 1.1 seconds. Photographed a stop watch - how sad is that You can't miss!

Here's another idea (sorry) now you've got that fab gun. Strobe flash. Try 1/60sec with the strobe around 150 cyles per second. Strobed flash, bit of ambient blur blending the images... I'm loving it already

Ok, I understand the burst mode where each shot would have blur from the ambient and a single flash cycle to freeze the action but I can't get my head around what the strobe method would produce. I mean, I understand what the multi strobe mode does in terms of firing a number of times while the shutter is open but with the flash set to 150Hz for 1/60th, I think I'm right in saying that is just over 2 flash cycles (2.4 maybe) so.. oh wait I think I've just worked it out.... are we talking a smooth blur from the ambient, punctuated with a couple of frozen action captures?

 

[HoppyUK]

Yep, bloody good deal I thought!

Ok, I understand the burst mode where each shot would have blur from the ambient and a single flash cycle to freeze the action but I can't get my head around what the strobe method would produce. I mean, I understand what the multi strobe mode does in terms of firing a number of times while the shutter is open but with the flash set to 150Hz for 1/60th, I think I'm right in saying that is just over 2 flash cycles (2.4 maybe) so.. oh wait I think I've just worked it out.... are we talking a smooth blur from the ambient, punctuated with a couple of frozen action captures?

Yeah, you've got it. At those settings I'm getting 2.5-3 decently exposed images together, and sometimes a couple more ghostly half ones at either end of the sequence - because the shutter is actually partly open for quite a bit longer than 1/60sec. Plus a dash of ambient blur linking them together.

If you want more images, lengthen the shutter speed, or increase the cycling rate (up to 199 per sec) or a bit of both. Depends on the speed of movement and the effect you want.

The more I think about this brilliant idea, the more likely it is that it might look rubbish. Or fantastic! It's more for the cover than every shot inside perhaps. Could work though, with a strongly dynamic pose for his hand, all fingers at it, giving the strings a seriously strong plucking - prolly nothing like he'd actually play at all haha

Edit: The Who's My Generation is just on the radio - get him to play the bass solo in that! Timing will be tricky though - you only get one strobe burst at a time

 

[jontucker]

The more I think about this brilliant idea, the more likely it is that it might look rubbish. Or fantastic! It's more for the cover than every shot inside perhaps. Could work though, with a strongly dynamic pose for his hand, all fingers at it, giving the strings a seriously strong plucking - prolly nothing like he'd actually play at all haha

Only one way to find out eh!

If you look at the video I posted before, from about 4:30, there's some quite energetic slapping going on and those LEDs might look pretty cool too!

 

[HoppyUK]

Only one way to find out eh!

If you look at the video I posted before, from about 4:30, there's some quite energetic slapping going on and those LEDs might look pretty cool too!

Might be better when he learns to play

Those LEDs could be great. They actually flash don't they? At mains frequency 50 cyles or something? Gotta be something there if he waves it about a bit! But the exposure balance issues - flash, ambient, strobe, flashing LEDs - it's making my head hurt already.

 

[jontucker]

Might be better when he learns to play

I know, mental isn't it! Just in case you're interested, this is pretty awesome too!

Those LEDs could be great. They actually flash don't they? At mains frequency 50 cyles or something? Gotta be something there if he waves it about a bit! But the exposure balance issues - flash, ambient, strobe, flashing LEDs - it's making my head hurt already.

Hmmm, I feel sick! Yes, could be complicated but I might accidentally end up with something cool, or not, place your bets! :bonk:

 

[HoppyUK]

I know, mental isn't it! Just in case you're interested, this is pretty awesome too!



Hmmm, I feel sick! Yes, could be complicated but I might accidentally end up with something cool, or not, place your bets! :bonk:

If you fancy it, just set up something roughly and have a go with a few test shots - you'll know immediately if there's anything in it. I think it's prolly like shooting those water droplet pics where you've no idea what you're going to get, but can be pretty sure that you'll get something really interesting if you just shoot enough frames.

 

[jontucker]

If you fancy it, just set up something roughly and have a go with a few test shots - you'll know immediately if there's anything in it. I think it's prolly like shooting those water droplet pics where you've no idea what you're going to get, but can be pretty sure that you'll get something really interesting if you just shoot enough frames.

Are you implying that it'll be more luck than judgement? :nono:

 

[Naboo32]

He had a list of exactly what shots he needed for the book. Some one hand, some the other and some both. This particular one is showing what the right hand is doing when playing 'tenths' and he wasn't worried about the left too much. You are right though, it's very difficult to show what both hands are doing at the same time. One nice thing was that he wanted some short DoF shots like the one below so we really had a play around doing them. His hands are in a right old state though so I think they'll need a bit of PP.


This sounds like a great idea... but, in this context (i.e the book) he wanted very concise shots and nothing too frilly. It does give me another idea though, what about doing as you describe but with more of the player in shot, striking a pose (!).



This image is demonstrating the technique of bending harmonics by pressing the string above the nut (apparently! )

This is my chance to make a point that I would like to have made 25 years ago (when I started playing bass), but never had the opportunity to .

The common problem with all of these tuition books, IMO, is that nearly all of the photos are posed to look pretty, from an 'audience perspective', rather than from the angle that a player would see them from. Point in case is your 'bent harmonic' shot. From that reverse angle, his fingers are curled over to obscure what his fingertips (the important parts) are doing - that's little or no help, really! It looks more like a shot designed to show off his 2K bass, rather than to teach would-be Victor Wootens :|.

If you could shoot 'over his shoulder' a bit more, you'd be able to capture an image which the readers of the book could easily emulate with their own finger positions. Also, to a beginner (as you'll know yourself from learning the guitar), fretboard shots from the front appear 'backwards' and a lot of this is required to translate them.

So, I think that you're on the right track with the lighting and focus (keep the backgrounds dark and non-distracting and use shallow DOF to emphasize the important part of the image), but you'd be breaking new ground if you could show the majority of 'how to do it' shots from the same point of view that the reader will have when trying to copy the excercises, as well as showing the (prettier ) front view too.

Off topic, but that 10th note fretting (demonstrated in the first picture) is very useful for mimicking the bassline to "Walk on The Wild Side" by Lou Reed . You just hold it at around the 7th fret on the E string, pluck the strings once, then pluck them again and slide both notes up to around the 12th fret (IIRC) and hey presto ... instant Herbie Flowers !!!

 

[Lensflare]

I thik th eblack background is going to be ideal for the book - don't forget, for editorial use (book publishing comes into that same genre) the way the picture is going to be used is as important as the picture itself.

The black background will make it very easy for the designer to cut it out if needed, or for caption boxes to be dropped on.

Many people only see the picture, when shooting for editorial you need to see the picture AND HOW IT IS GOING TO BE USED. So you really need to be visualising the finished page, not just the picture.

Not guitars, but some pictures get shot loose on purpose, where a critic would state that you "need to crop in a bit mate"...oh yes, so where does the designer put his text then. A lot of sea, or sky is often required for page headers, copy statements, or even to put an advert or box out to be put in without covering the subject.

 

[photon]

Good point Naboo32. Years ago, when I occasionally had to wear a bow-tie, I developed a technique of tying it behind my neck and then sliding it round into position. After all, we can tie our shoelaces without looking, and behind the neck the bow-tie is similar. Whereas in a mirror...