Ban Airshows

[gingerjon]

I put the link in earlier to give some sort of context. One of the reasons we hear about crashes at air shows in the news is that they are comparatively rare - in much the same way as between the accident and the bodies being found more people would have died on Britain's roads than down mines but only one mode of death made the news.

That said, those railing against health and safety might like to consider exactly why there are so few accidents and remember that every step of the way to getting the planes flightworthy, the pilots allowed to fly them, the venues where they can fly licenced and the crowd in a position to watch there will have been risk assessments, bureaucracy and, yes, health and safety.

 

[MisterE]

Some of you may remember the photographer who fell to his death off a cliff while composing a shot [last year?]. This got me thinking about the dangers of photography so I did some research. Did you know that in 99.7% of all deaths in the technologically advanced world, all those people have at some time handled a camera and taken a photograph?

The connection there is obvious, and so is the solution.

 

[CaptainPenguin]

If it's a stupid thread, why comment. It's got people talking and discussing and that's the point of it. We use cars because we have to. Airshows are supposed to be entertaining not life threatening. It just seems to me there are needless deaths at these events and whilst banning may be overkill (no pun intended) maybe they should have stricter safety guidelines. Being a stupid thread I won't expect you to comment further though.:nono:

So after Hillsborough football should have been banned worldwide,these things happen its life so dont wrap us all in cotton wool,if we want to weigh up the risks and take them we will

 

[Catdaddy]

Where would we be if we banned everything that was in the least bit dangerous? Do people realise how much time they'd have to spend actually working instead of reading the latest Darwin Awards...?

 

[photon]

So after Hillsborough football should have been banned worldwide,these things happen its life so dont wrap us all in cotton wool,if we want to weigh up the risks and take them we will

Are you also saying that the improvements in stadium design should not have been implemented?

 

[gingerjon]

So after Hillsborough football should have been banned worldwide,these things happen its life so dont wrap us all in cotton wool,if we want to weigh up the risks and take them we will

After Heysel crowd management improved; after Bradford and Hillsborough so did stadium design.

Blinking health and safety saving people's lives like that ...

 

[whitewash]

so the solution to the problem is not scream "ban it, Ban it, wont somebody think of the children" instead the answer is to look at what happened and try to reduce the risk of a repeat occurance, something that does and will happen after every accident at an event, knee jerk reactions rarely solve problems.

 

[EOS_JD]

there is more chance of being killed driving to the Chelsea flower show than being killed at an air show :shrug:

THere's probably more chance of being killed actually driving to the air show than being killed being there!!

 

[ZoneV]

I just wish someone would think of the children!

 

[CaptainPenguin]

Are you also saying that the improvements in stadium design should not have been implemented?

Of course not but following the OP's logic there would have been no safety improvements because football would have been banned and all stadium bulldozed

Oh and by the way I sit at the side of the pitch taking photo's every Saturday should I take portable concrete bunker in case I get hit by the ball

 

[TopCat160]

The risks to the participants are very different from the risks to the spectators.

Deaths amongst spectators are extremely rare these days. There was a horrendous accident at Ramstein in Germany in 1988, where a lot of spectators died, and the rules were rightly changed to reduce the risk of a flying accident causing casualties on the ground.

Doubtless there will be a thorough investigation into the Reno crash the other day.

But you shouldn't treat risks to the participants in the same way. They're doing what they love to do, and they understand the risks.

I think we should be grateful to them for giving us such fantastic displays.

 

[wack61]

Reno isn't an air show it's racing, I'd be surprised if it isn't banned after this, it's the US , the litigation will run into millions of dollars so even if they don't ban it I'd expect the insurance premiums to be that high as to make it unviable, plus if it does run again they'll be dots in the sky so far away from the crowd nobody will go to see it

Air shows are probably one of the safest public events you can go to these days

 

[cw318is]

Wow this thread went downhill very fast. There are some interesting comments here, in addition to some decidedly facetious ones and several insensitive remarks.

Air shows, air races and accidents are high profile. Morbidly the general public is obsessed with aviation disasters now that the novelty for the masses travelling by air has worn off. Nobody bothers when a taxi crashes into a canal, or when a scooter courier gets knocked off. An accident in an aircraft on the other hand is another story and front page worthy. Don't forget you are looking at the accident list on a global scale. Compare that to how many displays/flights/stunts/races have run smoothly this year and you will realise that requesting a ban is pure tosh. The risk is as low as is reasonably practicable. Air displays also amuse the masses. Most free summer displays get 50,000-100,000+ crowds who all have an enjoyable day out.

Now, in comparison to motorsport. If you look at motor racing on a global scale and the fatalities are huge annually, but nobody asks for a ban. Without sounding crass its an unfortunate fact that there will be a percentage rate for accidents and its just a case of minimising it.

 

[Bernie174]

Doog
Out of interest, have you ever been to an airshow?
Either way, what precautions do you think are in place to prevent death or injury to spectators?
You see for your point to have validity, you'd need to show us where there's currently a problem.
In the case of UK airshows, there's not been a death for a couple of years (the red arrows incident wasn't at an airshow, it was a number of miles away at an airport, where a formation did something called a break. Its a standard was of military aircraft arriving at an airfield and landing, not part of a flying display).
The last death I can recall, and I go to a fair number a year, was 3 or 4 years ago, when a pilot killed himself, no one else. So, in answer to your question, no, they shouldn't be binned, simply because there isn't an issue in the UK.

 

[Cheesy feet]

I thought the op was talking about air shows? I don't see any mention of other sports.
The op has raised a valid question and I doubt many people, especially children really understand the risks?..... They just go.

Just no, iin all honesty. The same could be said for crossing the road.

If you don't get it,:shrug:you just don't get it. Substance? Entertainment should be safe. If people are dying needlessly, more safety precautions are needed. Full stop.

Yes substance, you're talking about debate but what's to debate? Unless you work in health and safety at such events who are we to judge the supposedly inadequate (so inadequate you're surprised they aren't banned) precautions.

You can do all you can to prevent deaths but by thier very nature accidents are accidents and can rarely be predicted. Yes caution should be used but banning the shows.....come on.

Exactly...

 

[Wail]

<snip> .... Ban motorbikes from public roads. Ban anyone under the age of 23 from driving a car without supervision by a responsible adult. Ban anyone under the age of 30 from driving a car capable of speeds greater than 100 mph. Ban seatbelts, airbags and disk brakes: we were all safer when we felt less cocooned from the dangers inherent in driving. Ban smoking. Ban alcohol and other forms of recreational drug. Ban drink-driving, absolutely. Ban children from crossing the road other than where and when traffic is stationary. Generalisation no.3

Sounds like you've been to my country


Well, this sure got me thinking if they'd ban camel beauty pageants :shrug:. As a camel herder that's the last I'd like to see happen, but checking Wiki shows that camels aren't that dangerous ... they're no where on the list.


Me go out to cuddle my camels

 

[Bernie174]

Doog
You may want to read this before you go any further, it's the CAA's 'Bible' on flying displays.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP403.PDF

The UK is now so risk adverse, that not complying with it isn't an option. I've seen aircraft red carded and ordered to land for even the most minor infringements of the CAA regs during airshows.
While I can see how you've arrived at the knee jerk reaction, in response to Reno, the situation in the UK is different, and already exceptionally heavily regulated.

 

[Yves Geza]

You can do all you can to prevent deaths but by thier very nature accidents are accidents and can rarely be predicted. Yes caution should be used but banning the shows.....come on.

I agree with you entirely, Scott, but I'm going to pick up on one word.

What can anyone do to "prevent" death? You can only postpone it at best ...

 

[whitewash]

Now, in comparison to motorsport. If you look at motor racing on a global scale and the fatalities are huge annually, but nobody asks for a ban. Without sounding crass its an unfortunate fact that there will be a percentage rate for accidents and its just a case of minimising it.

can you state your sources that suggest the deaths caused by motorsport to be "huge" because i'm inclined to think that your sensationalising just a little bit. huge to me suggests that it runs into the 100s and thousands every year which is quite simply not the case.

 

[Splog]

I don't see the point of comparing deaths in motorsport or any other sport? I thought this was about spectator deaths and injuries?

 

[whitewash]

I don't see the point of comparing deaths in motorsport or any other sport? I thought this was about spectator deaths and injuries?

yes but its been brought up countless times in this thread, as with airshows specatator safety in motorsport is taken very seriously and steps are implemented to ensure their safety.

 

[cw318is]

I would also like to point out that I never said they should be banned, just astounded that they hadn't. I would like to see a greater control of the display content especially when it comes to the older type aircraft.

Can I ask what makes you feel qualified or educated enough to grant authority as to display content?

 

[Lynton]

blimey-see that big box over there with "life " on it.... go get one.....

I want to ban all diesels as well, due to their nasty noxious fumes but low carbons.

 

[Oggy]

This year has been a very bad year for classic and show Aviation - Godspeed Gents.

Saying that, has anyone been coerced to go to an airshow?

It's very simple - if you consider them too dangerous - don't go.

I have been to something in the order of 300 airshows in my life and I have been killed a very small number of times.

I know some people at the CAA responsible for airshow safety and they are very clever people who scrutinise every element of every display and set a fine balance between safety and having a worthwhile display.

I find it really annoying when someone with very little knowledge on a subject tries to spoil the enjoyment of others like this*

* This is not aimed at the OP who I believe raised this as a discussion.

 

[Doog]

This year has been a very bad year for classic and show Aviation - Godspeed Gents.

Saying that, has anyone been coerced to go to an airshow?

It's very simple - if you consider them too dangerous - don't go.

I have been to something in the order of 300 airshows in my life and I have been killed a very small number of times.

I know some people at the CAA responsible for airshow safety and they are very clever people who scrutinise every element of every display and set a fine balance between safety and having a worthwhile display.

I find it really annoying when someone with very little knowledge on a subject tries to spoil the enjoyment of others like this*

* This is not aimed at the OP who I believe raised this as a discussion.

Thankyou, and it certainly did get a discussion going. Unfortunately I've had to take a bit of a pasting too. Not to worry

Next Topic,
Anyone think looking though the little glass square on the back of a camera (view finder) ruins your eyes? Should they be banned in preference to live view?

 

[Gairo]

If you're astounded by the fact that they aren't then I'd assume you take a similar view of everyday activities.... like living ? greatest risk is life itself surely ?

 

[Steep]

More people will doe this week in car accidents than will die in airshows over the next 5 years.

I say ban cars!

I've read that not far short of a million people die each year (worldwide) as a result of road accidents.
While I agree that more precautions could be taken to keep spectators safe at some airshows a simple disclaimer should be enough. "Warning! attending this airshow could be detrimental to your health."

 

[kevshore]

BTW - Jon Egging was the only Red Arrows pilot to ever have lost a life, in the Hawk. if the report is correct (which I think is in this case), the only reason he didn't eject, was to steer the aircraft away from residential housing !

Not quite correct Viv:

RED 8, 22nd January 1988

Kev.

 

[SAVA9E]

50 people a year die choking on spoons, i say ban spoons too, and cars, and fags, and motorbikes, and etc etc

 

[f1charlie]

Look at LeMans in the 50's or the
Von Tripp accident the next decade.

People were killed in both and regulations were tightened.
In 1990 a freak accident involving Alan Mcnish killed a spectator.

No one banned motorsport.

Switzerland did after the 1955 Le Mans crash.

 

[Daryl]

Why would you swallow a spoon?